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Seamus_L
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RIA Novosti is reporting that the 2 men killed in Kharkiv yesterday were Pro-Russian activists en.ria.ru/russia/20140315/188453680/2-Killed-Several-Injured-in-Clashes-in-Eastern-Ukraine.html
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KyivAndrew
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Thanks for the link.
I mean who would kidnap a Catholic priest and bring weapons into a Catholic Church to take the parish priest away, right after the Divine Liturgy is finished, in front of the parishioners?
Well, Putin’s Russian mercenaries and self-defense units in Crimea, that’s who. Which lie is Putin’s state-controlled media going to say if it reports this situation: that the priest is a fascist?
A man of God, servant of the Church, decides to stay with his flock, in spite of the violent threats he receives at the hands of Putin’s thugs in Crimea.
Russian state-controlled media has been non-stop and caught in lies reporting about Ukraine. The Russian embassy is safe in Kyiv, Ukraine. Russian Orthodox Churches are safe throughout Ukraine, including in Western Ukraine. Russia sends in armed provocateurs from Russia into Ukraine into cities like Kharkiv and Donetsk to raise trouble and fight with the local population.
The thousands of Russian soldiers (really mercenaries because they wear no insignia) sent into Crimea by Putin outside their bases, have complete control of the peninsula and have surrounded the Ukrainian military bases and soldiers inside. The worst part these Ukrainian soldiers say is not the threat these Russian soldiers pose to them but to their wives and kids. These Russian “self-defense” units have now taken to threatening with physical harm the wives and kids of the Ukrainian soldiers stationed inside their bases, and whose families live outside the base. Ukrainian soldiers have complained they are dreadfully worried about the threats to their families. Who does stuff like this?
And now a Ukrainian Catholic priest is kidnapped by armed men in Crimea.
The armed thugs have released the priest now, and the so-called Crimean Justice Department (who runs this department, when the leader of Crimea Aksyonov proclaimed by Putin was a criminal underworld figure) - this Crimean Justice Department has charged the Catholic priest Father Mykola Kvych with “organizing provocations” and in two weeks time he is to appear in Court to face the charges which he categorically denies.
news.ugcc.org.ua/news/ottsya_mikolu_kvicha_vikrali_pravoohoronn%D1%96_organi_krimu_yogo_shchoyno_v%D1%96dpustili_69668.html
Who am I going to believe as to what is happening in Crimea: the unrepentant KGB colonel and current President of Russia Vladimir Putin, or the priests of the Ukrainian Catholic Church?
View attachment 19542
Ukrainian Catholic priest Father Mykola Kvych, who will not be intimidated by Putin’s armed attachments in Crimea, but stays with his flock.
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HB11
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:thumbsup:I am really concerned about all this. Any Russian you ask in B’klyn about Putin , spits out KGB. I told my husband weeks ago that when the Games were over that guy will make a move.
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KyivAndrew
Guest
Thanks and yes about Putin. The press in Ukraine and the new interim government are going on about the reality that there are Russian Spetsnaz not just in Crimea, but in areas like Kherson, Donetsk, and Kharkiv to stir up trouble. The Daily Beast has picked up on this as well about Russian special ops in Ukraine.
I’m afraid that Putin only listens to secret police yes-men now and he truly believes the propaganda he himself had originally fabricated about Ukraine. Apparently, even his foreign Minister Lavrov wasn’t in the loop as to the invasion of Crimea but the decision was made by four people around Putin. I truly worry that Putin is really deluded about Ukraine and this is worrying because he has a massive army and nukes at his disposal. It’s not good to have a delusional leader with so much firepower in such situations. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who was the most approachable leader to Putin from the West, herself said Putin is now inhabiting another reality. Everyone is out to get him in his mind. And by him, Putin understands Russia because he conflates the two - himself and his country, as many autocrats do. The conspiratorial thinking is imbibed when one trains in the Lubyanka, as Russian analysts like Andrei Soldatov and Englishman Edward Lucas have written about KGB graduates. The state media under Putin’s control is really beating up the warm drums now.
Most of Putin’s life has been spent living in communist police states like the Soviet Union and East Germany, and now his autocratically-ruled Russia. And he spent his time in the Soviet Union and East Germany working for the organs of repression, and he has never criticized this upbringing and work; he praise it. He really has no idea how a democracy functions, or that people/citizens, may have intrinsic individual rights and dignities irrespective of the Kremlin’s power.
One Ukrainian friend of mine just came back from vacation where on TV she watched Russian television news in the evening and she was just astounded at the lies being propagated by Putin’s television stations about Ukraine, and her old parents live in Central Ukraine and are worried to death.
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Miserissima
Guest
You mean they waited until after Divine Liturgy? Must be the kinder, gentler KGB/NKVD.
Seriously, though, my heart goes out to you and your wife. I don’t believe there will be nuclear firepower involved, just more landmines. Putun can’t afford to nuke his “own,” as Russians wouldn’t stand for it.
God bless you and all involved.
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Seamus_L
Guest
I’m not going to white wash Russia’s every action in Crimea and Ukraine, but the idea that this is all about one nation’s acts of unwarranted aggression is ridiculous. The Euromaidan people have been responsible for numerous violent attacks and beatings. A couple weeks ago I watched a video of one of the ringleaders attending a townhall meeting, with his numerous bodyguards surrounding the seating area. Sounds more like mobocracy to me. And as far as I know so far, nothing happened to thousands of people who carried Ukrainian flags in the anti-Putin protests in Moscow yesterday.
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Vouthon
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No matter what your personal assessment of Euromaidan may be, two wrongs do not make a right Seamus. It was an internal affair in a foreign country with sovereign rights just like any other nation. Yanukovych involved Russia first by fleeing to safety there. Putin had no right under international law to use a situation in the north of another country to invade and occupy its southern part. There is nothing in the Ukranian constitution which stipulated that the Crimean parliament had the right to invite Russia in either (a parliament that was taken over by pro-Russian forces, which makes me feel there is a little of the pot calling the kettle black in your statements about the Kiev revolution).
Russia has acted shamefully towards a sovereign nation. Now Putin is threatening the eastern regions of Ukraine outside of Crimea.
The latest from the BBC:
He is effectively dismembering another country because there was an uprising in its capital that does not sit well with Russian geopolitical goals, resulting in an aggressive takeover of an entire region of its territory. Now the above seems to be “Putin-speak” for, “ethnic Russians are suffering outside Crimea in the eastern areas of Ukraine, so now under my own self-created guidelines, I have the right to invade these parts too”.
This is like the law of the jungle. Can you imagine what would happen globally if every nation acted like Russia? Mexico might as well invade Texas because of all the Hispanics there and its history of being part of their territory. The Republic of Ireland might as well just invade Northern Ireland. China might as well just invade Taiwan.
It is telling that in the Security Council even China, which normally always supports Russia against the West, has abstained from the vote and refused to support her in this crisis. Russia has isolated herself diplomatically through her annexationist policies. Even China considers this to be illegal and wrong, a Communist authoritarian state no less.
In the Crimean “referendum”, no free media has been allowed in; no campaign or political leaders representing the opposition (ie pro-Ukraine side) and Russian troops are controlling the whole region. The Ukranian government in Kiev has had no say in what is going to happen to its own territory, not once has it been consulted. The ballot papers do not even allow for the status quo to remain, it is either “join the Russian Federation” outright or “greater autonomy”. This isn’t even a “yes, no” like the Scottish referendum (that took years to formulate I might add while this has happened in under a month in Crimea). If the voters choose “greater autonomy” then Crimea will become a South Ossetia: a vassal state of the Russian Federation. There is no choice here, Putin wins either way.
What kind of picture of Russia is this sending to the world?
It makes her look like a pathetic bully.
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pepipop
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If you see it from that viewpoint then yes all your points are correct. However, the government in Ukraine was overthrown with a neo-facist government now in place, identified as such by the EU in 2012, so in Russia’s and others eyes no-one is in control. Russia were invited in to help the Crimeans and IMO this was a set-up devised between both, i.e. Crimea and Russia, it was not all Russia’s idea nor are they uninvited.
If NI became independent and it’s government overthrown with rioting, killings etc… then yes, nationalists could ask the Irish army to assist. The unionists could ask the British army to assist.
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GaryTaylor
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Isn’t the referendum today, rather odd day on Sunday to have a vote while under an authoritarian military presence. Think it will be fair?
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pepipop
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Who knows. If, the Irish /British armies were in NI and a referendum was to be taken, to join either country, I am sure neither army would interfere with the public voting. The referendum most likely will not be recognised and is possibly a negotiating tool to be used in the next stage.
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GaryTaylor
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I haven’t seen much on it. Admittedly I haven’t searched much either.
foxnews.com/world/2014/03/16/polls-open-in-crimea-referendum-amid-high-tensions/
I suppose we all hope it doesn’t result in this…
“This will end up in military action, in which peaceful people will suffer. And that means everybody. Shells and bullets are blind,”
foxnews.com/world/2014/03/16/polls-open-in-crimea-referendum-amid-high-tensions/
I suppose we all hope it doesn’t result in this…
“This will end up in military action, in which peaceful people will suffer. And that means everybody. Shells and bullets are blind,”
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pepipop
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euobserver.com/news/123453
*BRUSSELS - The Russian government has invited some of Europe’s far-right parties to observe this weekend’s referendum in Crimea.
The leader of France’s National Front party, Marine Le Pen, told press at the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday (12 March) that her executive has not yet decided whether to go.
The Austrian Freedom party, a National Front ally, also got an invitation.
Crimeans will go to the polls on Sunday to pick one of two options: “Are you in favour of Crimea becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation?” or “Are you in favour of restoring Crimea’s 1992 constitution? [on semi-autonomy inside Ukraine].”
With Russian soldiers and paramilitaries in control of streets and public buildings, the vote will effectively be held at gunpoint.
EU leaders have said the referendum is illegal.
The G7 club of wealthy nations, which also includes Canada, Japan, and the US, described it as a "deeply flawed process which would have no moral force.”
The OSCE, a Vienna-based multilateral body, has also declined to send observers because the vote was called in violation of Ukraine’s constitution.*
*BRUSSELS - The Russian government has invited some of Europe’s far-right parties to observe this weekend’s referendum in Crimea.
The leader of France’s National Front party, Marine Le Pen, told press at the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday (12 March) that her executive has not yet decided whether to go.
The Austrian Freedom party, a National Front ally, also got an invitation.
Crimeans will go to the polls on Sunday to pick one of two options: “Are you in favour of Crimea becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation?” or “Are you in favour of restoring Crimea’s 1992 constitution? [on semi-autonomy inside Ukraine].”
With Russian soldiers and paramilitaries in control of streets and public buildings, the vote will effectively be held at gunpoint.
EU leaders have said the referendum is illegal.
The G7 club of wealthy nations, which also includes Canada, Japan, and the US, described it as a "deeply flawed process which would have no moral force.”
The OSCE, a Vienna-based multilateral body, has also declined to send observers because the vote was called in violation of Ukraine’s constitution.*
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Athanasiy
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pepipop
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nytimes.com/2014/03/14/opinion/getting-ukraine-wrong.html?_r=3
**Getting Ukraine Wrong
John J. Mearsheimer, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, is the author of “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics.”**
*The taproot of the current crisis is NATO expansion and Washington’s commitment to move Ukraine out of Moscow’s orbit and integrate it into the West. The Russians have intensely disliked but tolerated substantial NATO expansion, including the accession of Poland and the Baltic countries. But when NATO announced in 2008 that Georgia and Ukraine “will become members of NATO,” Russia drew a line in the sand. Georgia and Ukraine are not just states in Russia’s neighborhood; they are on its doorstep. Indeed, Russia’s forceful response in its August 2008 war with Georgia was driven in large part by Moscow’s desire to prevent Georgia from joining NATO and integrating into the West.The Obama administration then made a fatal mistake by backing the protesters, which helped escalate the crisis and eventually led to the toppling of Mr. Yanukovych. A pro-Western government then took over in Kiev. The United States ambassador to Ukraine, who had been encouraging the protesters, proclaimed it “a day for the history books.”
Mr. Putin, of course, didn’t see things that way. He viewed these developments as a direct threat to Russia’s core strategic interests.
Who can blame him? After all, the United States, which has been unable to leave the Cold War behind, has treated Russia as a potential threat since the early 1990s and ignored its protests about NATO’s expansion and its objections to America’s plan to build missile defense systems in Eastern Europe.Mr. Obama should adopt a new policy toward Russia and Ukraine — one that seeks to prevent war by recognizing Russia’s security interests and upholding Ukraine’s territorial integrity.
To achieve those goals, the United States should emphasize that Georgia and Ukraine will not become NATO members. It should make clear that America will not interfere in future Ukrainian elections or be sympathetic to a virulently anti-Russian government in Kiev. And it should demand that future Ukrainian governments respect minority rights, especially regarding the status of Russian as an official language. In short, Ukraine should remain neutral between East and West.Mr. Obama should adopt a new policy toward Russia and Ukraine — one that seeks to prevent war by recognizing Russia’s security interests and upholding Ukraine’s territorial integrity.*
**Getting Ukraine Wrong
John J. Mearsheimer, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, is the author of “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics.”**
*The taproot of the current crisis is NATO expansion and Washington’s commitment to move Ukraine out of Moscow’s orbit and integrate it into the West. The Russians have intensely disliked but tolerated substantial NATO expansion, including the accession of Poland and the Baltic countries. But when NATO announced in 2008 that Georgia and Ukraine “will become members of NATO,” Russia drew a line in the sand. Georgia and Ukraine are not just states in Russia’s neighborhood; they are on its doorstep. Indeed, Russia’s forceful response in its August 2008 war with Georgia was driven in large part by Moscow’s desire to prevent Georgia from joining NATO and integrating into the West.The Obama administration then made a fatal mistake by backing the protesters, which helped escalate the crisis and eventually led to the toppling of Mr. Yanukovych. A pro-Western government then took over in Kiev. The United States ambassador to Ukraine, who had been encouraging the protesters, proclaimed it “a day for the history books.”
Mr. Putin, of course, didn’t see things that way. He viewed these developments as a direct threat to Russia’s core strategic interests.
Who can blame him? After all, the United States, which has been unable to leave the Cold War behind, has treated Russia as a potential threat since the early 1990s and ignored its protests about NATO’s expansion and its objections to America’s plan to build missile defense systems in Eastern Europe.Mr. Obama should adopt a new policy toward Russia and Ukraine — one that seeks to prevent war by recognizing Russia’s security interests and upholding Ukraine’s territorial integrity.
To achieve those goals, the United States should emphasize that Georgia and Ukraine will not become NATO members. It should make clear that America will not interfere in future Ukrainian elections or be sympathetic to a virulently anti-Russian government in Kiev. And it should demand that future Ukrainian governments respect minority rights, especially regarding the status of Russian as an official language. In short, Ukraine should remain neutral between East and West.Mr. Obama should adopt a new policy toward Russia and Ukraine — one that seeks to prevent war by recognizing Russia’s security interests and upholding Ukraine’s territorial integrity.*
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GaryTaylor
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“With Russian soldiers and paramilitaries in control of streets and public buildings, the vote will effectively be held at gunpoint.”
I don’t know CNN is reporting live now that Mr Putin is controlling all the media output.
"There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set.
You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to… The Outer Limits."
I don’t know CNN is reporting live now that Mr Putin is controlling all the media output.
"There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set.
You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to… The Outer Limits."
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Vouthon
Guest
Dear pepi,
Thank you for the post.
You say that a “neo-fascist government” has come to power. I strongly dispute that but even if that were true, Greece has the avowedly fascist Golden Dawn Party in its parliament at the moment. Does that mean that a country has the right to invade it to remove those fascists who have been democratically elected?
Even though Yanukovych was forced to flee by demonstrators, his own party and the Ukranian parliament decided to impeach him and transfer authority over to a new government decided by that parliament. This parliament was democratically elected, including by the people of Crimea, meaning that it was, is and remains their legitimate representative body under the Ukranian constitution and international law. That parliament decided to remove its President and voted to endorse the new government on 27 February 2014. It is entitled to do this under the constitution. Do you deny this?
If David Cameron’s Conservative Party and the parliament in the UK decided to impeach him, then it would be a legal transfer of power because parliament as the democratic representative of the nation is sovereign. It was thus a legal transfer of power in the Ukraine too. Will you please accede this much?
Accepting that the transfer of power was legal, why does Putin have the right to occupy part of the country because he doesn’t like the character of the new interim government? The only party that could be accused of having espoused fascist views would be Svoboda which does not make up the majority of the new government. The President, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and the second vice prime minister are all members of the Batkivshchyna Party. This is a liberal-conservative party that is pro-European and has never once been linked too or espoused extreme nationalism in any form.
Most of the other members of the government are independents not affiliated with any particular party.
Now onto Svoboda which has a few important positions in the government and does have far-right nationalist roots:
And let me be clear here. Ukraine intends to hold democratic elections this year to elect a new parliament and form a new government. The Rada (parliament) decided upon this, which is why Klitschko’s Udar Party decided not to take part in the new government, because he is waiting for the elections and expects to get a large share of the public vote.
Read:
theweek.com/article/index/257646/no-ukraine-is-not-being-run-by-fascists
So because Russia has ‘fascists’ and a fascist party in its parliament - that I have spoken of at great depth in the previous thread - that are close to Putin, why can’t the US deny that the Russian government and parliament have any legitimacy under this logic? That would be a ridiculous notion because Russia is a sovereign country and the same applies to Ukraine.
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pepipop
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en.itar-tass.com/world/723726
SIMFEROPOL, March 16, 4:52 /ITAR-TASS/. A total of 54 observers from European Union countries had arrived in Crimea as on Saturday March 15, ahead of a crucial vote on the future of Ukraine’s autonomy in a referendum on Sunday, sources from the Strategic Communications Agency in Crimea told Tass on Saturday.
All in all, about 70 observers from 23 countries have been registered, including representatives from Poland, Austria, France, Germany, Belgium, Hungary, Greece, Italy and Latvia.
“These are deputies of the European Parliament, members of European national parliaments, as well as leading European experts on international law and renowned human rights activists,” the sources added.
SIMFEROPOL, March 16, 4:52 /ITAR-TASS/. A total of 54 observers from European Union countries had arrived in Crimea as on Saturday March 15, ahead of a crucial vote on the future of Ukraine’s autonomy in a referendum on Sunday, sources from the Strategic Communications Agency in Crimea told Tass on Saturday.
All in all, about 70 observers from 23 countries have been registered, including representatives from Poland, Austria, France, Germany, Belgium, Hungary, Greece, Italy and Latvia.
“These are deputies of the European Parliament, members of European national parliaments, as well as leading European experts on international law and renowned human rights activists,” the sources added.
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TaurusRex
Guest
Gentlemen, my “THOUGHTS” have been changing in all respects and even concerning Putin, although I still don’t believe he’s such a terrible person, I do wish he would withdraw from Crimea in the interest of peace;
However, I also think the Crimean people should be allowed to choose to be with Russia if they prefer.
Another “THOUGHT” I’ve had is why I quoted Seamus …
how do you think the EU likes having to get their gas and oil from Russia?
Somewhere long ago I read something about European billionaires especially from Great Britain running our American economy and yes, I’m saying that these billionaires imho could be pulling America’s strings and they could even be behind the thugs.
This is about control of Russia’s pipelines imho.
How much business hauling oil to Europe has the UK lost due to Russia’s pipelines?
Yes, this may end up with innocent people being killed in battle because these billionaires and sadly our American government doesn’t care about you or your Ukrainian Catholics …
they’ll use you and everyone else they can, supply you with arms and let you do the fighting because they want control of those Russian pipelines imho.
Until you find and publicly identify the thugs, the truth won’t be known for sure imho.
rex
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Vouthon
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pepipop
Guest
It’s not to do with the government being fascist - my comment to the new government being so, was in relation to the hypocrisy of the EU - stating in 2012 that such parties were not agreeable to the EU (I can’t remember the wording) - and now they’re all for such a government, a year later. Not all the Ukrainians wish this government to be in power, it favoured people living near Kiev, and until the elections in 25th May will cause fractions between the E/W/S Ukrainian people. Numerous videos are up showing thugs, under the auspices of the new government, in small towns throwing people out of office, jailing them if they don’t reject Russia, drawing swastikas on Jewish mosques, etc… se.o not a good start, in addition to the Russian language faux pas on day one in office.
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