Ukraine (cont.)

[I_trust]

With Takeover Of Natural Gas Station, Russia Ratchets Up Tension With Ukraine
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Since the protests in Kiev turned bloody weeks ago, there has been one question on my mind: when will Russia invade Ukraine?

And now we know the answer: yesterday.

On the eve of the secession referendum in Crimea, Putin used his elite commandos – Spetsnaz – to execute his move beyond Crimea.

forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2014/03/16/russia-invades-ukraine/

 

[seekerz]

Is he trying to recreate the “glory” days of the Soviet Union? The man is acting like a classic dictator. Is it just Putin, or is there something in the water in that part of the world?

I think the referendum today is a sham. All parts of a country belongs to ALL of its people - not just to those living on the physical land. To encourage a faction of people to vote to secede is not right unless that country’s constitution allows for such a vote - it is my understanding that Ukraine’s does not.

 

[josie_L]

I just have to get this out, Pepipop, this is what you cited/sourced in #193, now read carefully:

BRUSSELS - The Russian government has invited some of Europe’s far-right parties to observe this weekend’s referendum in Crimea.

The leader of France’s National Front party, Marine Le Pen, told press at the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday (12 March) that her executive has not yet decided whether to go.

The Austrian Freedom party, a National Front ally, also got an invitation.

Crimeans will go to the polls on Sunday to pick one of two options: “Are you in favour of Crimea becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation?” or “Are you in favour of restoring Crimea’s 1992 constitution? [on semi-autonomy inside Ukraine].”

With Russian soldiers and paramilitaries in control of streets and public buildings, the vote will effectively be held at gunpoint.

EU leaders have said the referendum is illegal.

The G7 club of wealthy nations, which also includes Canada, Japan, and the US, described it as a "deeply flawed process which would have no moral force.”

The OSCE, a Vienna-based multilateral body, has also declined to send observers because the vote was called in violation of Ukraine’s constitution.

and then this is what you write to Vouthon in post # 200:

Vouthon, I don’t think Putin has invaded anywhere. He says he’s no troops there, other stations are showing no troops there and any ‘neutral’ soldiers interviewed say they’'re Crimean nationals? So who knows, either way Putin has been invited whether they are Russian or Crimean men dressed in uniform.

First, I can’t begin to understand why you would cite a source that states Russian troops are in the Crimea only to later suggest/state that these are probably not Russian troops as per your other “sources”. Moreover, either Putin has no troops whatsoever in Crimea or he was “invited” into Crimea, and thus there is occupation by Russian troops, i.e., WHICH IS IT?

 

[pepipop]

I just have to get this out, Pepipop, this is what you cited/sourced in #193, now read carefully:

and then this is what you write to Vouthon in post # 200:

First, I can’t begin to understand why you would cite a source that states Russian troops are in the Crimea only to later suggest/state that these are probably not Russian troops as per your other “sources”. Moreover, either Putin has no troops whatsoever in Crimea or he was “invited” into Crimea, and thus there is occupation by Russian troops, i.e., WHICH IS IT?

But that’s an opinion, no-one’s proven it yet.

Sorry, I had to add this as it made me laugh!

Russian tank sighted in Ukraine.

http://images.everytrail.com/pics/fullsize/1778699-soviet03.jpg

 

[pepipop]

I just have to get this out, Pepipop, this is what you cited/sourced in #193, now read carefully:

and then this is what you write to Vouthon in post # 200:

First, I can’t begin to understand why you would cite a source that states Russian troops are in the Crimea only to later suggest/state that these are probably not Russian troops as per your other “sources”. Moreover, either Putin has no troops whatsoever in Crimea or he was “invited” into Crimea, and thus there is occupation by Russian troops, i.e., WHICH IS IT?

I posted it in relation to observers being invited to Crimea. I did not read the whole article. Another, states there are no troops - but as it is from the ‘kremlin mouthpiece’ it will not be heeded.

Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers

rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/
*
The foreign affairs editor from Chronicles Magazine, Srdja Trifkovic, who is also an observer at the Crimean referendum has told RT that he drove from Simferopol to Yalta on Saturday and back and he “didn’t see a single barrel (of a gun) unless you count two speed traps, one on the way out and one on the way back where policemen had guns.”

“The presence of troops on the streets is virtually non-existent and the only thing resembling any such thing is the unarmed middle-aged Cossacks who are positioned outside the parliament building in Simferopol. But if you look at the people both at the voting stations and in the streets, like on Yalta’s sea front yesterday afternoon, frankly I think you would feel more tense in south Chicago or in New York’s Harlem than anywhere round here,” he said.*

 

[josie_L]

I posted it in relation to observers being invited to Crimea. I did not read the whole article. Another, states there are no troops - but as it is from the ‘kremlin mouthpiece’ it will not be heeded.

Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers

rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/
*
The foreign affairs editor from Chronicles Magazine, Srdja Trifkovic, who is also an observer at the Crimean referendum has told RT that he drove from Simferopol to Yalta on Saturday and back and he “didn’t see a single barrel (of a gun) unless you count two speed traps, one on the way out and one on the way back where policemen had guns.”

“The presence of troops on the streets is virtually non-existent and the only thing resembling any such thing is the unarmed middle-aged Cossacks who are positioned outside the parliament building in Simferopol. But if you look at the people both at the voting stations and in the streets, like on Yalta’s sea front yesterday afternoon, frankly I think you would feel more tense in south Chicago or in New York’s Harlem than anywhere round here,” he said.*

RT is a Kremlin mouthpiece.

 

[josie_L]

But that’s an opinion, no-one’s proven it yet.

Was Putin “invited” into Crimea? Yes or no?

 

[Vouthon]

18:46: In a polemic on Russian strength and American weakness, Dmitriy Kiselev, the outspoken presenter of the “Vesti Nedeli” weekly news roundup on official state channel Rossiya 1, boasted: “Russia is the only country in the world that is genuinely capable of turning the United States into radioactive ash.”

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26599776

Charming.

 

[pepipop]

Was Putin “invited” into Crimea? Yes or no?

I’d say yes, but no-one knows anything. I can’t see the operation going so smoothly or rapidly without internal cooperation. There would have been shots fired, riots, something by some citizens - but absolutely nothing.

 

[josie_L]

18:46: In a polemic on Russian strength and American weakness, Dmitriy Kiselev, the outspoken presenter of the “Vesti Nedeli” weekly news roundup on official state channel Rossiya 1, boasted: “Russia is the only country in the world that is genuinely capable of turning the United States into radioactive ash.”

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26599776

Charming.

I wonder if he will get fired for making such a comment?

 

[josie_L]

I’d say yes, but no-one knows anything. I can’t see the operation going so smoothly or rapidly without internal cooperation. There would have been shots fired, riots, something by some citizens - but absolutely nothing.

How can you say “no one knows anything” when the real problem is Russian media sources saying one thing and the rest of the world saying another, i.e., almost every media source has declared an occupation by Russia of the Crimea?

P.S. And I won’t bother with the rest of the post, I’ve responded ad nauseam to your speculations.

 

[pepipop]

How can you say “no one knows anything” when the real problem is Russian media sources saying one thing and the rest of the world saying another, i.e., almost every media source has declared an occupation by Russia of the Crimea?

P.S. And I won’t bother with the rest of the post, I’ve responded ad nauseam to your speculations.

Where’s the proof? How do the other media sources know this, where are the photos, etc. As if they know they must have seen the invasion in the country. All supposition and hearsay.

The European international observers will be leaving soon, and can report to their respective media as to what they ‘actually’ saw whilst in Crimea. If they report it has been invaded and overrun by troops then yes, that will be evidence of same.

 

[pepipop]

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26599776

Key Points
Election officials say 95.5% of voters have backed joining Russia in the referendum, after half of the ballots were counted.

What will happen now, I wonder, as EU do not see it as a legal referendum. Numerous reporters from around the world are in Crimea and the people are out rejoicing in the streets. So this will be interesting.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’ve seen plenty of elderly people and young kids taking part in pro-Russia rallies, hard to believe they were all brought in from Russia.

 

[pepipop]

I’ve seen plenty of elderly people and young kids taking part in pro-Russia rallies, hard to believe they were all brought in from Russia.

The electorate split in Ukraine (as per USAID document) was nearly 50/50, in relation to going with the EU or Russia, hence there has to be a lot of pro-Russians living in Ukraine.

 

[gilliam]

People loyal to Kiev didn’t have any choice on the ballot to vote for so they boycotted the plebiscite.

BTW: this shows you where rt.com stood in all this: Editor of Russia today, @M_Simonyan, tweets: #ДоброПожаловатьДомой": “Welcome home”

As I said before, they are a simply a mouthpiece for the Kremlin and not an unbias news source.

 

[Vouthon]

People loyal to Kiev didn’t have any choice on the ballot to vote for so they boycotted the plebiscite.

BTW: this shows you where rt.com stood in all this: Editor of Russia today, @M_Simonyan, tweets: #ДоброПожаловатьДомой": “Welcome home”

As I said before, they are a simply a mouthpiece for the Kremlin and not an unbias news source.

AMEN!

 

[Vouthon]

A fascinating piece just published by Andrey Zubov.

Some info about who he is and how his criticism of Putin has landed this former Russian professor in hot water:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Zubov

**Andrei Borisovich Zubov **(Андрей Борисович Зубов, born 1952 in Moscow) is a Russian historian and political scientist, Doctor of History, and a former Professor of the Moscow State Institute of International Relations (MGIMO)…

On Saturday 1 March 2014, Zubov published an article sharply criticizing Russian military intervention in Crimea, titled “This Has Already Happened”. In this he compared Putin’s actions with Hitler’s annexation of Austria and Czechoslovak Sudetenland in 1938.[3] According to latest news, Zubov consequently lost his position at the Moscow State Institute of International Affairs[4] when he refused to resign.

Here is his latest piece:

ft.com/cms/s/0/a6c2e8f6-ab99-11e3-90af-00144feab7de.html#axzz2wAY0X5El

Crimea is now occupied by Russia – in violation of all norms of international law and treaties signed by Moscow itself. Russia is rapidly emerging as a rogue state from which even its traditional allies are turning away.

Why did Vladimir Putin take these actions, which are incredible from the point of view of modern political practice? What do the Russian president and his colleagues actually need? Is it really Crimea? Hardly.

Of course, Crimea is a tasty slice of historic Russia – a region with the best resorts, beautiful scenery and strategically important military bases. Whoever controls Crimea controls the Black Sea.

But Russians have always been unimpeded in Ukrainian Crimea. As for the Russian navy base, it never reached its staffing limits. The Moscow establishment was not concerned about controlling the Black Sea; it was preoccupied with stuffing its own pockets at the expense of the people.

The invasion of Crimea cannot be explained with concern for the Russian-speaking people of Crimea either. Russia’s rulers do not even care about their own people, robbing them cynically. Why would they suddenly care about their kinsmen in Crimea? And nobody has oppressed the Russians in Crimea. They are first-class citizens, and the official language in Crimea is Russian. Yes, there are poor Russians in Crimea. But all over Ukraine, the majority of the people live in extreme poverty.

I think Mr Putin’s goals are far beyond the Crimean peninsula. First, Moscow’s rulers are terrified that Ukraine’s Maidan protest movement could replicate itself in Russia. The fate of Viktor Yanukovich, the ousted Ukrainian president, frightens them. They are also frightened by the tough anti-communist spirit of the Maidan. The revolution is taking place amid collapsing monuments to Soviet leaders: Lenin, Kirov, Dzerzhinsky. But in neighbouring Russia, 25 years after the ban of the Communist party, Grandpa Lenin is still resting in his mausoleum on Red Square, his monuments still stand. In Russia, we have a metamorphosis of the Communist order; in Ukraine, a decisive parting from it.

This scares the KGB officers in charge of Russia today. It is also one of the reasons why the Russian media has branded the Maidan participants “fascists”. It is a logic familiar to many older Russians: if you oppose the Soviet Union, you are a fascist. Such was the custom in the Stalinist era; it has been now reborn. And by demonising the Ukrainian protesters, converting them into enemies of everything scared to Russo-Soviet man, public opinion will surely turn against the Maidan.

Second, Mr Putin is well aware of the Brezhnev doctrine – the principle of limited sovereignty of the involuntary allies of what was then the Soviet Union. The USSR kept its satellites on a leash, the length of which could adjusted according to taste. Now Mr Putin would like to put Ukraine on such a leash, allowing Kiev the freedom to do some things but not others. The decisive factor would be Moscow.

Of course, the big interests of Russia’s rulers in Ukraine, their personal economic interests, weigh heavily. But even more important is the belief that, in the countries of the former Soviet Union, it is Moscow that must define the rules of the game. Ukraine, like Poland in 1981, Czechoslovakia in 1968 and Hungary in 1956, rose up against this principle of limited sovereignty. And the Russians want to bring Ukraine to heel, just as they did with its western neighbours.

Finally, in the context of growing economic crisis in Russia and a long-term loss of popularity, Mr Putin has resorted to a method that is normally a moral taboo but very potent: the unleashing of national chauvinism. In a country that has recently faced degradation and disintegration, a call for reunification with an oppressed people cut off from the motherland by political foul play has the power to mobilise many.

History teaches us that such a move very quickly robs the people of freedom, and leads to deep poverty, spiritual devastation and political disaster. But for politicians, now is often more important than tomorrow. After all, tomorrow for them may never come.

So the occupation of Crimea is only a means for the current political regime in Russia – a means towards goals that are extremely dangerous for Europe, for Ukraine and for the Russian people itself.

 

[KyivAndrew]

But that’s an opinion, no-one’s proven it yet.

Sorry, I had to add this as it made me laugh!

Russian tank sighted in Ukraine.

http://images.everytrail.com/pics/fullsize/1778699-soviet03.jpg

Yeah, I guess somebody had to laugh at the fact there are 21,000 Russian troops with heavy armour in Crimea and that Ukrainian Catholic priests are disappearing there too.

 

[KyivAndrew]

The European international observers will be leaving soon, and can report to their respective media as to what they ‘actually’ saw whilst in Crimea. If they report it has been invaded and overrun by troops then yes, that will be evidence of same.

Neutral unarmed OSCE observers from Canada, Europe etc. were not allowed into Crimea to observe the vote. Putin stopped them and his troops used gunfire to prevent such, but I will tell you who Putin allowed to, ahem, observe the vote:

Far-right and neostalinists observing so-called ‘referendum’ in Crimea

euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/far-rights-and-neostalinists-observing-so-called-referendum-in-crimea/

Who knows, Putin did a fantastic job of counting votes for himself in Chechnya for the Presidential elections to the Russian Federation getting some 107% of the vote there.

In any event, there really isn’t much one can discuss with somebody who thinks RT is a legitimate news-source about Ukraine on CAF; it is as gilliam and josie pointed out above a Kremlin mouthpiece and I think linking to it is discouraged on CAF.