Ukraine (cont.)

[Tomdstone]

According to the following report, the three priests who “disappeared” and were “kidnapped” or “abducted” are in fact safe and sound and in no danger:
ukraineinvestigation.com/three-missing-priests-safe-sound/

 

[pepipop]

Yeah, I guess somebody had to laugh at the fact there are 21,000 Russian troops with heavy armour in Crimea and that Ukrainian Catholic priests are disappearing there too.

No-one is laughing at those situations. It still has not been proven there are 21,000 Russian troops in heavy armour in Crimea (aside from those at the Black sea naval base). As international observers shall return home shortly, from Crimea as well as journalists from over the world, currently in Crimea, they should all be able to confirm the presence of troops in Crimea and report to their respective press.

I have read about the priests being kidnapped, which is dreadful. What is the reason for any group to kidnap priests, I also read priests had received letters asking them to get out of Crimea. What is their fear of the priests and their reasons for doing this?

 

[pepipop]

Neutral unarmed OSCE observers from Canada, Europe etc. were not allowed into Crimea to observe the vote. Putin stopped them and his troops used gunfire to prevent such, but I will tell you who Putin allowed to, ahem, observe the vote:

Far-right and neostalinists observing so-called ‘referendum’ in Crimea

euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/far-rights-and-neostalinists-observing-so-called-referendum-in-crimea/

Who knows, Putin did a fantastic job of counting votes for himself in Chechnya for the Presidential elections to the Russian Federation getting some 107% of the vote there.

In any event, there really isn’t much one can discuss with somebody who thinks RT is a legitimate news-source about Ukraine on CAF; it is as gilliam and josie pointed out above a Kremlin mouthpiece and I think linking to it is discouraged on CAF.

OSCE were invited to be observers, last Monday, but they declined the invitation.

reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idUSL6N0M73AP20140310

*(Reuters) - Ukraine’s Crimea region has invited the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to send a mission to observe Sunday’s referendum on joining Russia, Russia’s RIA news agency said on Monday.

It said the invitation had been issued to the Vienna-based security and human rights organisation by the region’s pro-Russian parliament.

But later in the day, a OSCE spokeswoman said Crimea could not invite observers as the region was not a full-fledged state and therefore not a member of the 57-member organisation.

“As far as we know, Crimea is not a participating state of the OSCE, so it would be sort of hard for them to invite us,” she said.*

 

[danrooke]

Here are my few pennies - Watching some of the video scenes of the initial protests in Kiev between police and protesters, I find the level of violence from the protesters to be shocking. The riot police had shields and batons; defending against guns, thrown bricks and Molotov cocktails. One officer was hit across head with a bat, and all manner of punching and kicking took place across, what can only be described as a, battlefield. I don’t know what’s happening over there, but as I see it, Crimean people are safer with Russia, in nearly all respects.

The majority of Crimean’s have spoken, including the ethic Tartars, Russians and Ukrainians. Quite frankly, I pray that the rest of the country comes to its senses. There has been so much violence and killing in protests, it still goes on now. Yet the USA, UK, EU seem only willing to step in when a democratic process is given to the people of Crimea. What about the violent Coup d’état in Kiev, when a few thousand people where able to chose the fate of the whole nation. If the protesters of Kiev force there way, let the Crimean’s democratically decide on their future at least!!!

God save the people of that broken country.

 

[danrooke]

“democratic coup d’état” "a popular uprising against an authoritarian or totalitarian regime and topple that regime for the limited purpose of holding the free and fair elections of civilian leaders."

Has this happened in Kiev - No

coup d’état “[a] coup consists of the infiltration of a small, but critical, segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder.”

Has this happened in Kiev - Yes

Ergo - The current regime in Kiev is an undemocratic and ultimately illegal government body. Thus Crimea has the right to self determination (probably a false leap, but you’re all clever people, you can fill in the blanks)

• Coup d’État: A Practical Handbook,* Edward Luttwak - reference.

 

[josie_L]

No-one is laughing at those situations. It still has not been proven there are 21,000 Russian troops in heavy armour in Crimea (aside from those at the Black sea naval base). As international observers shall return home shortly, from Crimea as well as journalists from over the world, currently in Crimea, they should all be able to confirm the presence of troops in Crimea and report to their respective press.

I have read about the priests being kidnapped, which is dreadful. What is the reason for any group to kidnap priests, I also read priests had received letters asking them to get out of Crimea. What is their fear of the priests and their reasons for doing this?

I guess regular Crimeans can access Russian tanks to blockade Ukrainian military bases (all 13 of them) via Walmart or maybe E Bay? And it’s ironic how you won’t believe the International community, i.e., foreign journalists who have exposed the “pro-Russian” soldiers as Russians, but you will rely on them NOW as befits your purpose.

Written March 1st:

On Sunday, a convoy of hundreds of Russian troops was seen headed toward Simferopol, the regional capital, the Associated Press reports.

washingtonpost.com/world/a-deeply-concerned-obama-warns-russia-against-action-in-crimea/2014/03/01/c56ca34c-a111-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html

But that’s all hearsay, right?

As to why the priest was kidnapped, probably for the purposes of intimidation and demoralization of the Ukrainian Catholics living in the Crimea, i.e., people that are not of Russian ethnic background. Catholics in Russia don’t fare so well under Russian rule, maybe their warning them of what’s to come.

But then again why believe that Ukrainian priests are being kidnapped, that’s probably hearsay too?

Here’s something else you might want to read, but, of course, it’s mere hearsay:

Russian media is reporting that 93% of voters on the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea have voted to secede to Russia.

The big question, now that Russia has effectively annexed Crimea (even though the international community does not recognize the move), is what happens next.

Here’s what Crimea’s pro-Russian deputy prime minister told Richard Engel of NBC News:

**Crimean Deputy PM Rustam Temirgaliev on referendum: “It’s the first step. I really think so. I think second step will be with east Ukraine.”

9:53 AM - 16 Mar 2014 **

Read more: businessinsider.com/crimea-referendum-votes-for-russia-2014-3#ixzz2wAsdIknq

 

[gilliam]

Since they couldn’t vote for staying with Ukraine, the ethnic Tartars and those loyal to Kiev boycotted the plebiscite.

 

[danrooke]

RT is a Kremlin mouthpiece.

Yes Russia Today is a mouth piece for Russia - it presents the news from a Russian perspective. A bit like how the BBC presents the news from a British perspective and so on and so forth.

In fact Russia Today repeatedly states that it is there to present the Russian point of view. I say gives us the ability to have a balanced view on things, to see where wires might be crossed, where misunderstandings have taken place. It’s good to look at both sides, and withholding judgement.

 

[danrooke]

Since they couldn’t vote for staying with Ukraine, the ethnic Tartars and those loyal to Kiev boycotted the plebiscite.

If you wanted things to stay the same then they didn’t need to vote - If they didn’t have the numbers for a vaild vote then the vote would be a sham. It’s also worth noting 81% of Crimea voted - i think just over 58% are were ethnically Russian. Not all of these voted to be part of Russia, Then when have ethinc Ukrainans 24% and Tartar’s 12%. It turns out that bout 40% of the Tatars went to polling stations. If 95% of 81% voted to join Russia, its a majority, it wouldn’t have matter if “lets keeps things as they are” was on the ballot. Let the Crimeans exercise thier right to self-determination!!

 

[josie_L]

Here are my few pennies - Watching some of the video scenes of the initial protests in Kiev between police and protesters, I find the level of violence from the protesters to be shocking. The riot police had shields and batons; defending against guns, thrown bricks and Molotov cocktails. One officer was hit across head with a bat, and all manner of punching and kicking took place across, what can only be described as a, battlefield. I don’t know what’s happening over there, but as I see it, Crimean people are safer with Russia, in nearly all respects.

Oh, I get it you’re getting your news from RT, and that’s why I’m having trouble relating it to reality.

The majority of Crimean’s have spoken, including the ethic Tartars, Russians and Ukrainians. Quite frankly, I pray that the rest of the country comes to its senses. There has been so much violence and killing in protests, it still goes on now. Yet the USA, UK, EU seem only willing to step in when a democratic process is given to the people of Crimea. What about the violent Coup d’état in Kiev, when a few thousand people where able to chose the fate of the whole nation. If the protesters of Kiev force there way, let the Crimean’s democratically decide on their future at least!!!

Hmmm, the Tartars and the Ukrainians I believe boycotted the referendum, and the violence you’re witnessing is being provoked by pro-Russian demonstrators in Crimea and cities like Donetsk (notice there is no violence in Kyiv). Millions, not a few thousand, demonstrated against the ineffectual and now defunct government under Yanukovych, and the coup d’état is not a coup because parliament by a vote of 328-0 ousted him out, and although this represents 73% of all parliamentary members, the rest either never showed up for voting or fled like Yanukovych did.

God save the people of that broken country.

It was not broken until Russia invaded it and decided to annex Crimea.

 

[josie_L]

Yes Russia Today is a mouth piece for Russia - it presents the news from a Russian perspective. A bit like how the BBC presents the news from a British perspective and so on and so forth.

In fact Russia Today repeatedly states that it is there to present the Russian point of view. I say gives us the ability to have a balanced view on things, to see where wires might be crossed, where misunderstandings have taken place. It’s good to look at both sides, and withholding judgement.

RT is a KREMLIN mouthpiece and since there is no such thing as freedom of the press in Russia in its present state, please stop sermonizing about how I should view both sides of the story . . . . I’m only interesting in the facts not lies propagated by Putin.

 

[josie_L]

If you wanted things to stay the same then they didn’t need to vote - If they didn’t have the numbers for a vaild vote then the vote would be a sham. It’s also worth noting 81% of Crimea voted - i think just over 58% are were ethnically Russian. Not all of these voted to be part of Russia, Then when have ethinc Ukrainans 24% and Tartar’s 12%. It turns out that bout 40% of the Tatars went to polling stations. If 95% of 81% voted to join Russia, its a majority, it wouldn’t have matter if “lets keeps things as they are” was on the ballot. Let the Crimeans exercise thier right to self-determination!!

You really think this sham of a referendum is valid, don’t you, irrespective of the fact that it’s government was not elected by the people but by heavily armed “pro-Russian” mercenaries/soldiers, or that Crimea was/is occupied by Russia, or that there was no voting against the referendum, or that “no” was not an option at the ballot box?

 

[danrooke]

RT is a KREMLIN mouthpiece and since there is no such thing as freedom of the press in Russia in its present state, please stop sermonizing about how I should view both sides of the story . . . . I’m only interesting in the facts not lies propagated by Putin.

what about lies from the other side?

 

[Miserissima]

France 24 reported that in order for Crimea to join the Russian Federation, they first have to “officially” declare their independence. It was, reported that all this was drafted weeks ahead of the referendum.

I As an astute poster wrote in the previous thread, “rubber stamp, stamped.”

 

[josie_L]

what about lies from the other side?

Okay, I give, what lies?

 

[KyivAndrew]

Yes Russia Today is a mouth piece for Russia - it presents the news from a Russian perspective. A bit like how the BBC presents the news from a British perspective and so on and so forth.

In fact Russia Today repeatedly states that it is there to present the Russian point of view. I say gives us the ability to have a balanced view on things, to see where wires might be crossed, where misunderstandings have taken place. It’s good to look at both sides, and withholding judgement.

No, Russia Today is a mouth piece for Putin, not Russia. All major Russian TV stations in Russia like Rossiya 24 are controlled by the Kremlin. Russian voices who disagree with Putin are quickly taken off air. Your analogy to the BBC does not hold water.

The BBC will criticize and investigate the Tories, Labour, Lib-Dems, whoever is in power or not. Russia Today, and Russian language TV stations are **not **allowed to criticize Putin. PERIOD. If you don’t believe me, please point me to one news story on RT critical of Vladimir Putin. I watch Russian state news in the Russian language at times and I’ve seen people quickly cut-off if their answers don’t toe the party line.

I watch Canadian news, American news (NBC,CBS,ABC,Fox,MSNBC,CNN, PBS), BBC, ITV, Euro News, DW, Ukrainian TV in the Ukrainian language, and RT and Russian TV in the Russian language.

RT knowingly reports lies, seriously, and systematically. RT, after the Ukrainian Maidan, started reporting stories of a mass exodus of Ukrainians to Russia. Lines and crowds at border checkpoints are very hard to fake, so Russian TV instead filmed the line next to the border checkpoint with Poland, labeling it as “thousands of Ukrainains running away to Russia from the far right.” (Ukrainian journalists figured out the real location by noticing that a plate on the checkpoint listed the name of the city of Shegyni, which is on the Polish border.) This wasn’t a slip, but a lie, and one among many, as Olga Shynkarenko pointed out in the Daily Beast. (Like reports of troves of Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea defecting to the Russian military last week - a brazen lie).
Putin’s Crimea Propaganda Machine
thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/03/putin-s-crimea-propaganda-machine.html

I ask you to find one news story on RT critical of Putin, just one. You cannot. Unfortunately, showing state propaganda non-stop does affect Russian citizens’ views, and views of people in Ukraine who watch these channels in areas like Crimea. Why do you think after the Russians invaded Crimea, one of the first things they did was stop broadcasts of Ukrainian TV, replacing it with Rossiya 24.

Putin learned in the KGB the importance of controlling the press and suppressing truth. After all, that’s what the KGB did.

 

[danrooke]

Okay, I give, what lies?

Exactly. Look i’m not picking a fight, I’m not going to talk about the lies, because i have no clue. However I know that information is being distorted on BOTH sides. Both are manipulating the situation in the media probably.

I do not care about Russian politics and news spin nor do I care for Euro-American politics and news spin. If I see a large number of western Catholic’s condeming Russia on a Forum, it’s clear that their information is coming directly from their western news/political spin. Josie, it sounds to me that you are eating up the negative anti-russian spin in current western news. Equally, one ALWAYS finds anti-western spin in russian news. This is clearly the wrong way to look at this situation - through the lens of the polictial stance of the country. Howeverm, when the two opposed and biased sources agree, you find what is probably true.

What do both agree on? there has been a vote and nearly everybody turned up. There are unmarked troops around crimea, there were violent right-protests in Kiev during the first uprising. What else is agreed upon?

Look, at the end of the day, as long as one side or the other is not attacking the Church, and people do not needlessly suffer abuse, persceution and physical violence, I have no care for the Politics going on over there. It’s not my Business, My business is the physical, mental and spritual health and well being of my brothers and sisters in Christ. All that matters is that the core doctines of the Church are given as rights for my bothers and sisters, ie. the ten comandments.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I normally don’t come to this sub-forum anymore, but I feel I would be lax if I did not speak out.
We (the US and the EU) are playing a VERY dangerous game.
I had a fear back in '08 that to award a man a “peace prize” before he even became President was like calling the Titanic an “unsinkable ship”. It flies in the face of God and begs a response.
We appear, on the anniversary of WW1, to be edging closer to WW3 than ever before in our history since the Cuban missle crisis. What is happening is scary.
We as Catholics need to stand against war and the destruction of human life.
We are Catholics first. “Exceptionalism” is not what we are about. We need to heed the words of the Holy Father.
Pray for peace.

 

[danrooke]

No, Russia Today is a mouth piece for Putin, not Russia. All major Russian TV stations in Russia like Rossiya 24 are controlled by the Kremlin. Russian voices who disagree with Putin are quickly taken off air. Your analogy to the BBC does not hold water.

The BBC will criticize and investigate the Tories, Labour, Lib-Dems, whoever is in power or not. Russia Today, and Russian language TV stations are **not **allowed to criticize Putin. PERIOD. If you don’t believe me, please point me to one news story on RT critical of Vladimir Putin. I watch Russian state news in the Russian language at times and I’ve seen people quickly cut-off if their answers don’t toe the party line.

I watch Canadian news, American news (NBC,CBS,ABC,Fox,MSNBC,CNN, PBS), BBC, ITV, Euro News, DW, Ukrainian TV in the Ukrainian language, and RT and Russian TV in the Russian language.

RT knowingly reports lies, seriously, and systematically. RT, after the Ukrainian Maidan, started reporting stories of a mass exodus of Ukrainians to Russia. Lines and crowds at border checkpoints are very hard to fake, so Russian TV instead filmed the line next to the border checkpoint with Poland, labeling it as “thousands of Ukrainains running away to Russia from the far right.” (Ukrainian journalists figured out the real location by noticing that a plate on the checkpoint listed the name of the city of Shegyni, which is on the Polish border.) This wasn’t a slip, but a lie, and one among many, as Olga Shynkarenko pointed out in the Daily Beast. (Like reports of troves of Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea defecting to the Russian military last week - a brazen lie).
Putin’s Crimea Propaganda Machine
thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/03/putin-s-crimea-propaganda-machine.html

I ask you to find one news story on RT critical of Putin, just one. You cannot. Unfortunately, showing state propaganda non-stop does affect Russian citizens’ views, and views of people in Ukraine who watch these channels in areas like Crimea. Why do you think after the Russians invaded Crimea, one of the first things they did was stop broadcasts of Ukrainian TV, replacing it with Rossiya 24.

Putin learned in the KGB the importance of controlling the press and suppressing truth. After all, that’s what the KGB did.

I don’t care about Russia and its Propaganda. But critising the govenment is not a sign that the media is balanced nor is it the case that never critising the government a sign of balanced reporting.

I don’t care, I don’t care, I don’t care about the news spin. Russia Today is allowed to report what it likes, So to does the Daily mail, and the BBC, Fox. They can support the government or not. Maybe in Russia (sounds like a loud of rubbish and the article is not convincing) they cannot choose. Doesn’t change anything, the news is not the truth. Only God is the truth. However if two opposing sides are agreeing on the details, then its probable that is the case. Nor can one ignore testimony from the people on the street. Thats it. All i’m saying is get over the spin you’re in.

 

[mikekle]

Have to remember that while Russias press is not free, neither is the US…Sure many people may think we have freedom of the press here, but in truth, 6 large private corporations control all the media networks and they determine what is news and what is not.

GONE are the days of the ingenious reporter going to great lengths to get the 'scope on a particular story, sometimes involving them using disguises, faking credentials to gain entrance somewhere, paying off sources, etc…but at the end of the day, they usually got the facts concerning the story and it went to press this way. I wish the press was still like this, I think our society would be much better off, but I think this scared the big companies and they decided to do what they do best…but them up and thus control them.

It is truly sad and depressing to live in such times. Id imagine there are newsworthy stories happening every day, but thanks to the corporate owners, we dont get to hear much, if any of it. Plus, it is TRULY scary to think a corporation can own and control what is news and what the population does not need to hear!!! They could literally hide anything!!