Ukraine (cont.)

[josie_L]

Exactly. Look i’m not picking a fight, I’m not going to talk about the lies, because i have no clue. However I know that information is being distorted on BOTH sides. Both are manipulating the situation in the media probably.

No, you don’t get off that easily it’s not enough to say that information is being distorted on both sides without providing what those lies are? I have been reading tons and tons of stories and the only ones that don’t vibe are the ones provided by Russian sources, this is not a coincidence. Most of us have already demonstrated that the Russian propaganda machine has lied throughout this thread, while Kyiv has just pointed out several other lies that RT has spread.

I do not care about Russian politics and news spin nor do I care for Euro-American politics and news spin. If I see a large number of western Catholic’s condeming Russia on a Forum, it’s clear that their information is coming directly from their western news/political spin. Josie, it sounds to me that you are eating up the negative anti-russian spin in current western news. Equally, one ALWAYS finds anti-western spin in russian news. This is clearly the wrong way to look at this situation - through the lens of the polictial stance of the country. Howeverm, when the two opposed and biased sources agree, you find what is probably true.

I’m not anti-Russian, I’m anti-Kremlin and/or anti-Putin, I feel sorry for the Russians who are deprived of basic rights in their own country, and although you’re going to deny this because, well, it’s a Western source, here goes anyways:

Around 50,000 people marched through central Moscow on Saturday in protest at Russia’s intervention in Ukraine, a day before the Crimean peninsula votes on switching to Kremlin rule. Waving Ukrainian and Russian flags and adopting the chants of Ukraine’s popular uprising, prominent and ordinary Russians urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to pull troops back from ex-Soviet Ukraine.

Marchers carried placards reading “Putin, get out of Ukraine” and others comparing Kremlin’s decision to send troops to Crimea with the Nazi annexation of the Sudetenland as Europe rushed headlong into World War II. A group of demonstrators held a banner reading: “Take the Russian troops home,” while one protester carried a copy of George Orwell’s dystopian novel “1984.”

Some shouted the war-time battle cry of Ukrainian nationalists that has become the most famous chant of the Kiev uprising that ousted President Viktor Yanukovych - “Glory to Ukraine! Glory to heroes!” Members of anti-Kremlin punk ***** Riot compared Russia’s invasion of Crimea that plunged the country into a Cold-War style confrontation with the West to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968.

“How can a referendum under the barrels of guns be legitimate and fair?” ***** Riot member Maria Alyokhina asked during a rally after the march, a Russian flag in her hand. “I don’t want the troops to be stationed in Crimea,” added protester Vladimir Murashev, 58, noting his son was in the army. “I do not want him to be sent there.”

University professor Yelena Orlova, 47, whose sign read “Ukraine is a sovereign state”, said she was against "the annexation of Crimea. “I think Russia should respect the borders of Ukraine.” The huge column of people snaked along a central boulevard before the protesters gathered for a rally on Sakharov Avenue, the scene of huge anti-Putin rallies that shook Russia in 2011-12.

In Kiev, lawmakers in parliament gave the Russian protesters a standing ovation. “We should say thank you to our Russian friends,” said Volodymyr Aryev, a lawmaker with the pro-Western Batkivshchyna party. “Don’t shoot,” chanted the crowd as speaker after speaker denounced the Kremlin’s policies from the stage. “We are patriots and Putin is Russia’s enemy,” said activist Ilya Yashin.

brecorder.com/top-stories/0/1162992/

What do both agree on? there has been a vote and nearly everybody turned up. There are unmarked troops around crimea, there were violent right-protests in Kiev during the first uprising. What else is agreed upon?

See, there you go again, i.e., there was no violence until Yanukovych initiated the order to shoot protestors with rubber bullets in the eyes and throat, and that is when things began to escalate. The protestors were not violent by nature (as is attested by the lack of violence after the ousting of Yanukovych and the relative calm in Kyiv since then). Moreover, the troops have been identified as Russian, enough people (foreign journalists and Ukrainians) have corroborated this, even the Kremlin has much admitted this when they said it wasn’t an invasion if the new Crimean government asked for their help.

Look, at the end of the day, as long as one side or the other is not attacking the Church, and people do not needlessly suffer abuse, persceution and physical violence, I have no care for the Politics going on over there. It’s not my Business, My business is the physical, mental and spritual health and well being of my brothers and sisters in Christ. All that matters is that the core doctines of the Church are given as rights for my bothers and sisters, ie. the ten comandments.

Ukrainian Catholic priests have already been kidnapped, albeit released, Tatars have had painted crosses on their doors like under soviet rule right after they were deported by the Soviets, and Greek Catholics have been threatened. Moreover, Catholicism is not even a recognized religion in Russia, i.e., there is discrimination against Catholics in Russia, but please don’t take my word for it.

 

[josie_L]

Have to remember that while Russias press is not free, neither is the US…Sure many people may think we have freedom of the press here, but in truth, 6 large private corporations control all the media networks and they determine what is news and what is not.

GONE are the days of the ingenious reporter going to great lengths to get the 'scope on a particular story, sometimes involving them using disguises, faking credentials to gain entrance somewhere, paying off sources, etc…but at the end of the day, they usually got the facts concerning the story and it went to press this way. I wish the press was still like this, I think our society would be much better off, but I think this scared the big companies and they decided to do what they do best…but them up and thus control them.

It is truly sad and depressing to live in such times. Id imagine there are newsworthy stories happening every day, but thanks to the corporate owners, we dont get to hear much, if any of it. Plus, it is TRULY scary to think a corporation can own and control what is news and what the population does not need to hear!!! They could literally hide anything!!

And only Americans are reporting on the Ukraine?? Not the Canadians, or the British, or the Ukrainians . . . .etc. Honestly!!

 

[TaurusRex]

Here are my few pennies - Watching some of the video scenes of the initial protests in Kiev between police and protesters, I find the level of violence from the protesters to be shocking. The riot police had shields and batons; defending against guns, thrown bricks and Molotov cocktails. One officer was hit across head with a bat, and all manner of punching and kicking took place across, what can only be described as a, battlefield. I don’t know what’s happening over there, but as I see it, Crimean people are safer with Russia, in nearly all respects.

The majority of Crimean’s have spoken, including the ethic Tartars, Russians and Ukrainians. Quite frankly, I pray that the rest of the country comes to its senses. There has been so much violence and killing in protests, it still goes on now. Yet the USA, UK, EU seem only willing to step in when a democratic process is given to the people of Crimea. What about the violent Coup d’état in Kiev, when a few thousand people where able to chose the fate of the whole nation. If the protesters of Kiev force there way, let the Crimean’s democratically decide on their future at least!!!

God save the people of that broken country.

Danrooke,
you sound a lot like I did when I first entered this thread is all I’ll say about that
And I’ve just read that ~59% of Americans are in favor of sanctions against Russia with Obama having told Putin the west won’t ever accept Crimea being part of Russia.
Hopefully the cold war which has/is begun won’t get hot, but you Ukrainians God help you will find yourselves on the front line of which ever it is or becomes.

How long do you think it will last?
Do you think our sanctions will hurt Russia?
Russia is a big country with all the resources she needs if they’re developed and although the western world may benefit financially from cutting Russia out of their economic sphere, the Ukrainians I suspect will suffer for many years simply because of their proximity on the cold front.

The western world is still in financial straits and I doubt will be able to provide the Ukraine with the financial assistance it will need.

rex

 

[Tomdstone]

Okay, I give, what lies?

That a journalist on RT is not allowed to criticize Putin, And if he did, he would be quickly taken off the air.

 

[Nelka]

Danrooke,
you sound a lot like I did when I first entered this thread is all I’ll say about that
And I’ve just read that ~59% of Americans are in favor of sanctions against Russia with Obama having told Putin the west won’t ever accept Crimea being part of Russia.
Hopefully the cold war which has/is begun won’t get hot, but you Ukrainians God help you will find yourselves on the front line of which ever it is or becomes.

How long do you think it will last?
Do you think our sanctions will hurt Russia?
Russia is a big country with all the resources she needs if they’re developed and although the western world may benefit financially from cutting Russia out of their economic sphere, the Ukrainians I suspect will suffer for many years simply because of their proximity on the cold front.

The western world is still in financial straits and I doubt will be able to provide the Ukraine with the financial assistance it will need.

rex

Sanctioning Russia is like my wife banning me from shopping for shoes, it doesn’t bother me and it won’t bother them.

It probably will turn hot and the us/eu only have themselves to blame for paying the Nazis in Ukraine in the same manner as arming the rebels in Syria.

Are you ready for the red army to march on your land? Americans don’t have the same stomach for war as the Russians and not all leaders can throw nuclear weapons around.

Whenever I see Kerry talking on the news I always think of Jesus telling people to take the beam out of their own eye before they observe the splinter in their brother’s eye.

In he mean time North Korea are banging the drum again, firing dozens of missiles into the sea.

 

[TaurusRex]

Sanctioning Russia is like my wife banning me from shopping for shoes, it doesn’t bother me and it won’t bother them.

It probably will turn hot and the us/eu only have themselves to blame for paying the Nazis in Ukraine in the same manner as arming the rebels in Syria.

Are you ready for the red army to march on your land? Americans don’t have the same stomach for war as the Russians and not all leaders can throw nuclear weapons around.

Whenever I see Kerry talking on the news I always think of Jesus telling people to take the beam out of their own eye before they observe the splinter in their brother’s eye.

In he mean time North Korea are banging the drum again, firing dozens of missiles into the sea.

You’re basically right Nelka that Americans “don’t have a stomach for war” because especially Americans today have a very good life and most of us have also grown to be good and moral people having learned to love our neighbors, not to mention our freedom of speech of which my personal use I sometimes feel folks may think I’m unpatriotic;

Whereas in actuality I’m practicing as you’ve preached about “the beam out of their own eye” thing;
However, sad to say it’s my opinion that our immigration policy has been loose for many years to help solve the problem of our weak stomach for war like for example many immigrant Irishmen and even immigrant Italians died in our American Civil War.

Do you know that Giuseppe Garibaldi (the Italian unification hero) was almost picked before Ulysses S Grant to be commander in chief of the Union army?
Americans need to get hurt and then get angry to fight (i.e. after sometimes turning the other cheek).

PS:

This is about the strings on the USA I mentioned earlier:

henrymakow.com/000447.html

The Bank of England assumed control of the U.S. during the T.R. Roosevelt administration (1901-1909) when its agent J.P. Morgan took over 25% of American business

True Judaism like Islam and Christianity affirms the supremacy of God as a moral force.

Open the link and read the whole article …
couldn’t believe I found such an in depth viewpoint,
It will shock you.

rex

 

[GaryTaylor]

Are you ready for the red army to march on your land? Americans don’t have the same stomach .

The only people Russia is marching on as usual, are the unarmed, the innocent, poor and hungry. Its about equivalent to the three Marine divisions here invading “Good Will”

 

[gilliam]

You’re basically right Nelka that Americans “don’t have a stomach for war” because especially Americans today have a very good life and most of us have also grown to be good and moral people having learned to love our neighbors, not to mention our freedom of speech of which my personal use I sometimes feel folks may think I’m unpatriotic;

Whereas in actuality I’m practicing as you’ve preached about “the beam out of their own eye” thing;
However, sad to say it’s my opinion that our immigration policy has been loose for many years to help solve the problem of our weak stomach for war like for example many immigrant Irishmen and even immigrant Italians died in our American Civil War.

Do you know that Giuseppe Garibaldi (the Italian unification hero) was almost picked before Ulysses S Grant to be commander in chief of the Union army?
Americans need to get hurt and then get angry to fight (i.e. after sometimes turning the other cheek).

PS:

This is about the strings on the USA I mentioned earlier:

Open the link and read the whole article …
couldn’t believe I found such an in depth viewpoint,
It will shock you.

rex

JP Morgan Bank was not owned by the Bank of England. They were not associated with the Bank of England during Teddy Roosevelt’s administration and they didn’t own 25% of American assets at the time.
ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.P.Morgan%26_Co.#Early_history

Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.

 

[gilliam]

Ukraine crisis EU imposes sanctions over Crimea

The EU has agreed to impose travel bans and asset freezes against 21 officials from Russia and Ukraine.

The move follows Sunday’s referendum in Crimea, in which officials say 97% of voters backed breaking away from Ukraine and joining Russia.

The so-far unnamed individuals targeted by the sanctions are seen as having played a key role in the referendum, which Kiev, the US and EU deem illegal.

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26613567

I would assume these are the guys that already pulled their assets out of the Western banks so this isn’t going to hurt very much.

 

[pepipop]

I guess regular Crimeans can access Russian tanks to blockade Ukrainian military bases (all 13 of them) via Walmart or maybe E Bay? And it’s ironic how you won’t believe the International community, i.e., foreign journalists who have exposed the “pro-Russian” soldiers as Russians, but you will rely on them NOW as befits your purpose.

Written March 1st:

But there is no visual evidence of this having occurred. If they have ‘seen’ it where are the photos of Russian soldiers and tanks.

washingtonpost.com/world/a-deeply-concerned-obama-warns-russia-against-action-in-crimea/2014/03/01/c56ca34c-a111-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html

But that’s all hearsay, right?

There will now be terrorist organisations building up on either side, pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian, which will not be affiliated with either government.

As to why the priest was kidnapped, probably for the purposes of intimidation and demoralization of the Ukrainian Catholics living in the Crimea, i.e., people that are not of Russian ethnic background. Catholics in Russia don’t fare so well under Russian rule, maybe their warning them of what’s to come.

But then again why believe that Ukrainian priests are being kidnapped, that’s probably hearsay too?

Yes, I do believe it as from what I can see no Western media sources covered the story. The Vatican did and other Ukrainian religious sources.

Read more: businessinsider.com/crimea-referendum-votes-for-russia-2014-3#ixzz2wAsdIknq

 

[GaryTaylor]

These are the sanctions today?

businessinsider.com/crimea-vote-referendum-sanctions-obama-putin-2014-3

In response to the “Russian government’s actions contributing to the crisis in Ukraine,” the new executive order lists seven individuals designated for sanctions — Vladislav Surkov, Sergey Glazyev, Leonid Slutsky, Andrei Klishas, Valentina Matviyenko, Dmitry Rogozin, and Yelena Mizulina. Surkov and Glazyev are key aides to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

 

[pepipop]

These are the sanctions today?

businessinsider.com/crimea-vote-referendum-sanctions-obama-putin-2014-3

In response to the “Russian government’s actions contributing to the crisis in Ukraine,” the new executive order lists seven individuals designated for sanctions — Vladislav Surkov, Sergey Glazyev, Leonid Slutsky, Andrei Klishas, Valentina Matviyenko, Dmitry Rogozin, and Yelena Mizulina. Surkov and Glazyev are key aides to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

‘Contributing’ being the operative word. What about the ‘contributers’ that stirred the pot to begin with. After the coup, they’ve all kept their heads down and ‘supported’ the new government which is not accepted by a lot of regions in Ukraine - I’m referring mainly to the EU.

 

[TaurusRex]

JP Morgan Bank was not owned by the Bank of England. They were not associated with the Bank of England during Teddy Roosevelt’s administration and they didn’t own 25% of American assets at the time.
ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.P.Morgan%26_Co.#Early_history

Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.

Firstly, I don’t believe everything I read on the internet and that’s why the comment from the article is in quotes.
Then second I’m not going to address all of the supposed errors you seem to think I made because it’s difficult to explain, but the error may be yours in the way you’re interpreting,

Anyway, if you re-read my quote, it doesn’t say J P Morgan was owned by the Bank of England and you can see in the following quote that the two were agents of each other apparently at the start of WWI:

bing.com/search?q=was+j+p+morgan+an+agent+of+the+bank+of+england&form=MSNH14&pc=MDMD&refig=c6e83659e5a54ea4996b17c34c117be4&pq=was+j+p+morgan+an+agent+of+the+bank+of+england&sc=0-19&sp=-1&qs=n&sk=

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.P.Morgan%26_Co.#History

In August 1914, Henry P. Davison, a Morgan partner, traveled to the United Kingdom and made a deal with the Bank of England to make J.P. Morgan & Co. the sole underwriter of war bonds for the UK and France. The Bank of England became a fiscal agent of J.P. Morgan & Co., and vice versa. The company also invested in the suppliers of war equipment to Britain and France, thus profiting from the financing and purchasing activities of the two European governments.

Anyway the difficult explanation is that the word “agent” in my original post could have been used by the author to mean their later agent (i.e. the author could have been speaking sort of in future tense or however to state my meaning).
As far as J P Morgan’s holdings of American business in the days of T.R. Roosevelt, maybe I’ll try to seek that info at a later date;

However, you may be right about that part although you do use the words: “at the time” so it seems petty to me and again it’s a quote;
And also again according to my quote here they were each other’s agents so that’s association and again seems petty that you contradict it which again could have been your interpretation as I tried to explain.

Finally, :ehh: you could be right.
In any event I’m sure glad quoting a post in this forum doesn’t include the source link.

rex

 

[GaryTaylor]

‘Contributing’ being the operative word. What about the ‘contributers’ that stirred the pot to begin with. After the coup, they’ve all kept their heads down and ‘supported’ the new government which is not accepted by a lot of regions in Ukraine - I’m referring mainly to the EU.

Can’t see how it helps peace talks. I’m not convinced the sanctions would work as I believe as mentioned above the assets were moved. I also on the other hand don’t see how any of this is good for world economy. Its not Russia will do good and the US bad or visa versa. Its more like the innocent poor and hungry suffer as usual world wide. That said, I suppose Russia has a real interest in its Southern border, has for some time and rightfully so.

 

[pepipop]

Can’t see how it helps peace talks. I’m not convinced the sanctions would work as I believe as mentioned above the assets were moved. I also on the other hand don’t see how any of this is good for world economy. Its not Russia will do good and the US bad or visa versa. Its more like the innocent poor and hungry suffer as usual world wide. That said, I suppose Russia has a real interest in its Southern border, has for some time and rightfully so.

True, it is just the hypocrisy of the EU and washing their hands of it all. Needless to say the ‘money-makers’ have laid their bets this morning and Russia’s stocks on the way up again. Exactly the poor will just get hit even harder. I read today about the various billions of dollars made from consumer items exported to Russia, by the EU. If that trade is stopped - more unemployment.

Russian stock markets were up 3.7 per cent this morning and the rouble recouped early losses as traders calculated that Western sanctions would be largely symbolic.

irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/us-and-eu-impose-asset-freezes-travel-bans-after-crimea-vote-1.1728172

 

[Ridgerunner]

Danrooke,
you sound a lot like I did when I first entered this thread is all I’ll say about that
And I’ve just read that ~59% of Americans are in favor of sanctions against Russia with Obama having told Putin the west won’t ever accept Crimea being part of Russia.
Hopefully the cold war which has/is begun won’t get hot, but you Ukrainians God help you will find yourselves on the front line of which ever it is or becomes.

How long do you think it will last?
Do you think our sanctions will hurt Russia?
Russia is a big country with all the resources she needs if they’re developed and although the western world may benefit financially from cutting Russia out of their economic sphere, the Ukrainians I suspect will suffer for many years simply because of their proximity on the cold front.

The western world is still in financial straits and I doubt will be able to provide the Ukraine with the financial assistance it will need.

rex

The Obama administration has already endorsed the referendum by half, so there will not be a major opposition to seizure of Crimea. The big question is where will Russian revanchism stop? During the Soviet Union, Russian genocide replaced populations in Ukraine and the Baltic States in part, giving Putin several more “Sudetenlands” to absorb, if he stays with the methodology. Fortunately for Poland, Soviet seizure of eastern Poland left Poland almost entirely Polish. And there would be no “fifth column” there, other than perhaps some unrepentant Soviet collaborators.

 

[GaryTaylor]

True, it is just the hypocrisy of the EU and washing their hands of it all. Needless to say the ‘money-makers’ have laid their bets this morning and Russia’s stocks on the way up again. Exactly the poor will just get hit even harder. I read today about the various billions of dollars made from consumer items exported to Russia, by the EU. If that trade is stopped - more unemployment.

Russian stock markets were up 3.7 per cent this morning and the rouble recouped early losses as traders calculated that Western sanctions would be largely symbolic.

irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/us-and-eu-impose-asset-freezes-travel-bans-after-crimea-vote-1.1728172

Seems to be stable throughout at the moment.

finance.yahoo.com/news/markets-rise-sanctions-spare-russian-152945215.html

 

[pepipop]

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

I wonder how this vote will be treated, if they vote to break away.

*Voting has begun in Venice and the surrounding region on whether to break away from Italy.

Recent opinion polls suggest that two-thirds of the four million electorate favour splitting from Rome, but the vote will not be legally binding.

The poll was organised by local activists and parties, who want a future state called Republic of Veneto.

Online voting is due to continue until Friday.

The vote received very little coverage in Italy’s national media but the organisers said they expected as many as two million people to take part.

The BBC’s Alan Johnston in Rome says the vote reflects a growing separatist mood in parts of Europe, such as Spain’s Catalonia region and Scotland, which votes on whether to become independent in September.

A focal point for culture, architecture and trade, Venice lost its independence to Napoleon in 1797.*

 

[Miserissima]

Interesting.

France needs to send troops to Venice to protect the French Venetians from the Romans.

The article states that both Venice and the surrounding region get to vote. Why the surrounding region? It should be limited to ethnically French Venetians only. Who cares what the rest of Italy thinks? Why should they even have a say?

I am also curious about this ballot. What are the two options:
a. stay with Rome or
b. patriate with France?
If option b., will the temporary independence of the new republic of Venice be only a formality for pending reunification with France? Will France draw up the paperwork before the referendum? How world the EU view this disruption, would they want Venice to be on their own in the EU or under the patronage of France?

I can’t imagine Venice being truly independent, especially since France is one of the four countries who have strong economic ties to the country.

Perhaps Austria, Germany, USA, France, Switzerland, and the UK can agree what national identity the Venetians should adopt, based on each economic interest each has in Italy.

 

[josie_L]

But there is no visual evidence of this having occurred. If they have ‘seen’ it where are the photos of Russian soldiers and tanks.

Of course, there are, pictures/videos were taken (mainly by journalists) showing tanks/soldiers barricading Ukrainian military bases, some of which were posted on this thread awhile back. So I don’t know where you come off saying that there is NO visual evidence of this, incredible and absolutely false!!

Have you been reading any Ukrainian sources or are those too “western” for you?