Ukraine (cont.)

[Miserissima]

Haha, amazing.

I am not pro-Putin or anti West, I don’t like unfairness. The way this conflict was orchestrated was ‘poking Putin with a big stick’, by Western intervention in a country, on his borders. Very few countries would have sat down and ‘sucked it up’. I am not overly ‘comfortable’ with Putin’s move in Crimea - however, ‘dirty wars’ generate ‘dirty tactics’. However in saying that, IMO Crimea and Russia most likely had this thought out months, if not years ago, waiting and ready to move when the time was right. Nearly 97% to go with Russia, says it all.

He did not cause any deaths, and has made HIS point. Whether or not Crimea can legitimately join Russia, we can only wait and see. Putin is a tactician and ‘so far’, I have not seen him to be a tyrant - however that is my personal opinion.

…and now we diverge again…

Tensions run high. I share a bit of your inkling that this was “orchestrated,” but I’m not going to start with the theories, because I’ll start finger, pointing at, Putin which won’t be very productive.

So where do you get you’re need from and how do you evaluate what to believe, especially in regards to Ukraine?

I try to get as much news from different sources. Of side A says side B did something, and vice versa, the story is a draw for me as far as passing judgment, and evidence speaks for itself. Unfortunately, between time lapse in a hostile environment and selective recall, evidence can also manipulated.

 

[Miserissima]

Haha, amazing.

I am not pro-Putin or anti West, I don’t like unfairness. The way this conflict was orchestrated was ‘poking Putin with a big stick’, by Western intervention in a country, on his borders. Very few countries would have sat down and ‘sucked it up’. I am not overly ‘comfortable’ with Putin’s move in Crimea - however, ‘dirty wars’ generate ‘dirty tactics’. However in saying that, IMO Crimea and Russia most likely had this thought out months, if not years ago, waiting and ready to move when the time was right. Nearly 97% to go with Russia, says it all.

He did not cause any deaths, and has made HIS point. Whether or not Crimea can legitimately join Russia, we can only wait and see. Putin is a tactician and ‘so far’, I have not seen him to be a tyrant - however that is my personal opinion.

…and now we diverge again…

Tensions run high. I share a bit of your inkling that this was “orchestrated,” but I’m not going to start with the theories, because I’ll start finger, pointing at, Putin which won’t be very productive.

So where do you get you’re need from and how do you evaluate what to believe, especially in regards to Ukraine?

I try to get as much news from different sources. Of side A says side B did something, and vice versa, the story is a draw for me as far as passing judgment, and evidence speaks for itself. Unfortunately, between time lapse in a hostile environment and selective recall, evidence can also manipulated.

 

[pepipop]

Of COURSE it has been planned for years.

The Crimea is a done deal, and the only remaining question is whether the Russian empire will go all the way to the border of Poland or stop short somewhere east of Kiev.

Poland might as well move into western Ukraine and grab Lithuania while the getting is good. After all, since old empires are being revived, they might as well reconstitute Jagiello’s kingdom.

And come to think of it, since more Irish live in the U.S. than in Ireland, it’s undoubtedly time to make Ireland the 51st state. Well, and there are a lot of celts in Nova Scotia. Scotland too.

OK, lets say it was discussed, so what. Crimea were handed over to Ukraine in 1954. with no referendum, and wanted out. Putin could not have foreseen US/EU intervention in Ukraine, the messing about with ‘promised’ loans, Yanukovich changing his mind, then a coup and an illegal government in charge - time was right, go for it.

 

[pepipop]

…and now we diverge again…

Tensions run high. I share a bit of your inkling that this was “orchestrated,” but I’m not going to start with the theories, because I’ll start finger, pointing at, Putin which won’t be very productive.

So where do you get you’re need from and how do you evaluate what to believe, especially in regards to Ukraine?
I’ve posted links to numerous neutral sources, USAID showing voting demographics before the coup, which indicated a 50/50 split between Ukrainians wishing to do with Russia or the EU, the tapped phone conversations by Nuland, the Estonian minister and his ‘snipers’ comment and other professionals, e.g. a Professor from Chicago in International politics. I didn’t see Putin as the ‘bad guy’ before I started, I just look at what’s been happening on his doorstep and assess accordingly.

In addition, Putin is not ‘zipped up the back’, he knew he had to do everything ‘above the line’, and he seems to have managed that.

I try to get as much news from different sources. Of side A says side B did something, and vice versa, the story is a draw for me as far as passing judgment, and evidence speaks for itself. Unfortunately, between time lapse in a hostile environment and selective recall, evidence can also manipulated.

 

[pepipop]

Of COURSE it has been planned for years.

The Crimea is a done deal, and the only remaining question is whether the Russian empire will go all the way to the border of Poland or stop short somewhere east of Kiev.

Poland might as well move into western Ukraine and grab Lithuania while the getting is good. After all, since old empires are being revived, they might as well reconstitute Jagiello’s kingdom.

And come to think of it, since more Irish live in the U.S. than in Ireland, it’s undoubtedly time to make Ireland the 51st state. Well, and there are a lot of celts in Nova Scotia. Scotland too.

Yes, I’ve heard that numerous times. However, the Irish would have to ask the USA if we could become their 51st state. Just as Crimea has asked Russia.

 

[TaurusRex]

Venice has quite a history (home of Shakespeare’s character: Shamrock (“The Merchant of Venice”));
rex

Oops
That was Shakespeare’s “Shylock” not “Shamrock” in “The Merchant of Venice” …
surprised no one called me on it.

rex.

 

[Miserissima]

Oops
That was Shakespeare’s “Shylock” not “Shamrock” in “The Merchant of Venice” …
surprised no one called me on it.

rex.

I tried, but my phone wouldn’t let me. Fie on it!

 

[pepipop]

Putin’s addressing lawmakers, on Crimea, on live now.

 

[pepipop]

Crimea - all signed, sealed and delivered.

Whether it will be recognised is another matter.

theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/ukraine-crisis-putin-plan-crimea-annex-speech-russia-live

 

[kelvinf]

Great speech by Putin! I watched the whole ceremony live. It was classic.

This is a done deal. Bravo to Russia for standing up to the hypocrisy and double standards of the EU and US! :clapping:

 

[Vouthon]

Great speech by Putin! I watched the whole ceremony live. It was classic.

This is a done deal. Bravo to Russia for standing up to the hypocrisy and double standards of the EU and US! :clapping:

Yes, well done for illegally invading a country, holding a sham referendum in less than a month (when most take at least a year or more to properly organize) that is unconstitutional because that country’s own government was not consulted and causing an international crisis. Bravo indeed.

Why oh why people are fawning over Putin, a dictator with a very shady past in the KGB, is beyond me.

I at least appreciate that Pepipop is not claiming to be “pro-Putin” but what you are saying above is just

Not a jot of sympathy for the Ukranians have you, who have just watched as a part of their state has been annexed in less than a month without them having any say in it? Or the Crimean Tartars, the original inhabitants of the region before Stalin deported them in the millions, who are now fleeing Crimea?

 

[Burt_Macklin]

97% of Crimean voters voted in favor of joining Russia. It is always so strange to me when a vote is rigged that they make the results so unbelievable. Why not at least rig some numbers that are halfway believable?

 

[kelvinf]

Yes, well done for illegally invading a country, holding a sham referendum in less than a month (when most take at least a year or more to properly organize) that is unconstitutional because that country’s own government was not consulted and causing an international crisis. Bravo indeed.

Why oh why people are fawning over Putin, a dictator with a very shady past in the KGB, is beyond me.

I at least appreciate that Pepipop is not claiming to be “pro-Putin” but what you are saying above is just

Not a jot of sympathy for the Ukranians have you, who have just watched as a part of their state has been annexed in less than a month without them having any say in it? Or the Crimean Tartars, the original inhabitants of the region before Stalin deported them in the millions, who are now fleeing Crimea?

I am clearly “pro-Putin” if you prefer to call it that way. Putin is certainly way better than many world leaders in many, many aspects.

I can only quote what Putin said today:

“Our Western partners headed by the United States prefer not to be guided by international law in their practical policies, but by the rule of the gun,’’ he told a joint session of parliament, according to Reuters. “They have come to believe in their exceptionalism and their sense of being the chosen ones. That they can decide the destinies of the world, that it is only them who can be right.”
foxnews.com/world/2014/03/18/russia-moves-to-annex-crimea-laughs-at-us-sanctions/

Remember the Military Coup in Egypt? The West always has an explanation for when a wrong is not a wrong but a right, and when it is correct to violate international law. It makes me think of Animal Farm. “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” Not with Putin!

As to Ukraine, they are free to decide their future by themselves. If they believe the voice of all Ukrainains is the voice of the few in Maidan, then that’s really up to them.

The people in the Republic of Crimea have overwhelmingly decided their fate. It’s their sole right to do so!

PS: To build a runway in Britain or Germany for instance, it might take decades for it to happen. To build a runway in China, it can happen within a year. So because some people take years to “properly” organise a referendum does not mean that other people should or would also take years to “properly” organise theirs. That’s not mentioned in the UN charter.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Great speech by Putin! I watched the whole ceremony live. It was classic.

This is a done deal. Bravo to Russia for standing up to the hypocrisy and double standards of the EU and US! :clapping:

Do you mean because the US gets to invade other countries all the time and Russia never gets to invade anything? I will give credit where credit is due, I find the reasoning behind the invasion of Crimea more compelling than the US’s pretext for invading Iraq, Haiti, Colombia, Afghanistan, ect…

 

[GaryTaylor]

news.yahoo.com/tatars-flee-crimea-western-ukraine-134356171.html

“As long as Tatars are in Crimea, Crimea will remain part of Ukraine,” he said.

Tatars will launch a guerrilla war against the Russian forces if they do not pack up and leave the region, Aliyev warned.

“We will dance the haytarma and the hopak (traditional Tatar and Ukrainian folk dances) on the ruins of Putin’s post-imperialist ambitions,” he said.

James Brooke bids Moscow farewell…we are living in the dictatorship of 68. Putin doesn’t view His People as citizens but as “subjects”. Inundating Russia with paranoia of the West, strange ideas which mimic hate only.

themoscowtimes.com/

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, I’ve heard that numerous times. However, the Irish would have to ask the USA if we could become their 51st state. Just as Crimea has asked Russia.

If the U.S. had the ability and desire to conduct a fraudulent plebescite, it could be done. I remember years ago that there was what looked like a popular movement in Saskatchewan to join the U.S. But the U.S. accepted Canada’s borders and didn’t go in with troops and conduct a fake vote.

When more than 20% of the residents of Crimea are ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars who utterly oppose being part of Russia and the vote to join Russia is 97%, it’s an obvious fraud. This is a Russian conquest, and nothing else. They just did it with a fraudulent referendum. But even if the majority of Russians in Crimea support being joined to Russia, it’s still a violation of the territorial integrity of a state Russia recognized, not once, but twice.

No good will come of this, and more evil will come of it. Soviet, er, Russian apologists will see it sooner than later, but will not acknowledge it even then.

 

[Vouthon]

Do you mean because the US gets to invade other countries all the time and Russia never gets to invade anything? I will give credit where credit is due, I find the reasoning behind the invasion of Crimea more compelling than the US’s pretext for invading Iraq, Haiti, Colombia, Afghanistan, ect…

Except that none of those wars were fought to annex territories from any of these states, which is why the US has either pulled its troops out or is in the process of demobilizing in each of these examples.

Crimea is going to be incorporated into the Russian Federation. The last time the US did such an aggressive and illegal act was possibly during the Mexican-American War of 1844: the 19th century, which is why Kerry correctly described Russia as acting in a “19th century fashion” rather than the 21st century, where nations do not occupy parts of other sovereign countries against international law.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Do you mean because the US gets to invade other countries all the time and Russia never gets to invade anything? I will give credit where credit is due, I find the reasoning behind the invasion of Crimea more compelling than the US’s pretext for invading Iraq, Haiti, Colombia, Afghanistan, ect…

One notices that the U.S. did not annex Iraq, Haiti, Colombia, Afghanistan or “etc”. Sometimes “moral equivalency” fails on that basis, and Russia’s seizure of Crimea is one of them.

 

[pepipop]

news.yahoo.com/tatars-flee-crimea-western-ukraine-134356171.html

“As long as Tatars are in Crimea, Crimea will remain part of Ukraine,” he said.

Tatars will launch a guerrilla war against the Russian forces if they do not pack up and leave the region, Aliyev warned.

“We will dance the haytarma and the hopak (traditional Tatar and Ukrainian folk dances) on the ruins of Putin’s post-imperialist ambitions,” he said.

James Brooke bids Moscow farewell…we are living in the dictatorship of 68. Putin doesn’t view His People as citizens but as “subjects”. Inundating Russia with paranoia of the West, strange ideas which mimic hate only.

themoscowtimes.com/

In Putin’s speech he stated that Tartar(?) would be an officially recognised language.

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26625476

*BREAKING NEWS Mr Putin announces two new laws: to make the “Republic of Crimea” and “the city of Sevastopol” subjects - that is, parts - of the Russian Federation. He asks parliament to back those laws. He says they are based on the Crimean referendum result. He gets a standing ovation from the audience.

The Russian leader adds that most of the other groups are also oriented towards Russia. He mentions that Crimean Tatars were unjustly repressed in the past. He says measures should be taken to finish rehabilitation of the Tatars who returned to Crimea from internal exile.

“Russia has national interests that need to be respected.” He tells Ukrainians: “Don’t trust those who frighten you with Russia… we do not need a split Ukraine.” He says Crimea will remain home for Russians, Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars, but Crimea will not be home for “Banderovtsy” - a reference to nationalists. He gets applause at that point.*

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am clearly “pro-Putin” if you prefer to call it that way. Putin is certainly way better than many world leaders in many, many aspects.

I can only quote what Putin said today:

“Our Western partners headed by the United States prefer not to be guided by international law in their practical policies, but by the rule of the gun,’’ he told a joint session of parliament, according to Reuters. “They have come to believe in their exceptionalism and their sense of being the chosen ones. That they can decide the destinies of the world, that it is only them who can be right.”
foxnews.com/world/2014/03/18/russia-moves-to-annex-crimea-laughs-at-us-sanctions/

Remember the Military Coup in Egypt? The West always has an explanation for when a wrong is not a wrong but a right, and when it is correct to violate international law. It makes me think of Animal Farm. “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” Not with Putin!

.

Putin knows all the buttons to push in order to mollify western liberals when he does something evil. “…exceptionalism” could have come out of Obama’s mouth, and probably did at one time.

But Putin already knows Obama is going to accept the conquest of Crimea, and knew it beforehand.

Does anybody really think the military takeover of Egypt was western-inspired? Obama backed the Muslim Brotherhood, not the Egyptian military. And, having been rejected by the west, the Egyptian military has turned to, of course, Russia. I think we’re going to be seeing a lot more of that.