Ukraine (cont.)

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Ridgerunner said:
One notices that the U.S. did not annex Iraq, Haiti, Colombia, Afghanistan or “etc”. Sometimes “moral equivalency” fails on that basis, and Russia’s seizure of Crimea is one of them.
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The Crimean’s went willingly, they were not forced to. Crimea get their republic - so quid pro quo.
 
pepipop said:
In Putin’s speech he stated that artar(?) would be an officially recognised language.

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26625476

*BREAKING NEWS Mr Putin announces two new laws: to make the “Republic of Crimea” and “the city of Sevastopol” subjects - that is, parts - of the Russian Federation. He asks parliament to back those laws. He says they are based on the Crimean referendum result. He gets a standing ovation from the audience.

The Russian leader adds that most of the other groups are also oriented towards Russia. He mentions that Crimean Tatars were unjustly repressed in the past. He says measures should be taken to finish rehabilitation of the Tatars who returned to Crimea from internal exile.

“Russia has national interests that need to be respected.” He tells Ukrainians: “Don’t trust those who frighten you with Russia… we do not need a split Ukraine.” He says Crimea will remain home for Russians, Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars, but Crimea will not be home for “Banderovtsy” - a reference to nationalists. He gets applause at that point.*
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The Russian government had been promising those things prior to the referendum. It hasn’t seemed to change the Tatar community’s mind… Also I wonder what he means by “Banderovtsy” – considering the abuse heaped on those who peacefully opposed the secession of Crimea, are they still welcome there after the referendum, or will they be forced to leave their homes and flee northward?
 
The problem with us is that we keep electing political hacks instead of Statesmen. Obama is an empty vessel reading talking points off a teleprompter. He’s no match for the KBG and was outmaneuvered by Putin.

My only beef in this argument is that I like Russia and its people. My only link to Russia is my two Caucasian Mountain Dogs. They are willing to defend against outsider threats and protect their subjects and their territory which is exactly what Russia is doing right now.
 
Miserissima said:
While the article is more fear-mongering and threats from extremists (provided they’re not real), i would take the above quote (edited by me) and attribute it to any one of the founding fathers of the US.
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Whats real is the dictator in control at this moment. America was seeking freedom from such insanity.

You do realize Putin is a dictator? Yes?
 
GaryTaylor said:
He stated many things, he promotes hate. Did you listen to James Brooke above?
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A little bit, but I hate watching videos, I prefer to read. However, it’s an opinion. I don’t see how Putin promotes ‘hate’, as I have not seen it. The ‘hatred’ was already boiling over in Ukraine after the coup, so whilst he’s pulled a fast one, he did it completely with Crimea’s assistance, as they were definitely in on it too and they’ve now got their republic.
 
in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/ukraine-crisis-biden-poland-idINL6N0MF1W020140318
Reuters - Biden in Poland, Lithuania to reassure allies on Russia’s borders
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*** Eastern Europeans anxious after Russia action in Crimea
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  • Biden to discuss NATO support, energy security
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  • U.S. vice president is starting two-day mission in Warsaw**
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By Roberta Rampton
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WARSAW, March 18 (Reuters) - **U.S. Vice President Joe Biden landed in Warsaw on Tuesday on a mission to reassure allies in eastern Europe that Washington understands their anxieties about Russia’s actions in Ukraine and will protect them if needed, officials said.
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The countries have become increasingly nervous that they could be next in line to face aggression from Russia after President Vladimir Putin’s interventions to annex Ukraine’s Crimea region.**
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On the two-day mission, Biden plans to discuss ways to help the region become less dependent on Russian oil and gas and limit Moscow’s ability to use its energy supplies for political leverage, a senior administration official said.
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He will also talk about new ways NATO and the United States could support their allies, building on U.S. participation last week in war games in Poland and increased fighter jet patrols in the Baltics.
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“He will be talking about further steps that the United States can take and that NATO can take as an alliance to further ensure the security of Poland and the Baltics and other NATO alliances,” the official told reporters travelling with Biden.
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“They’ll discuss energy security, and including in that, long-term diversification of energy supply, so that energy can’t be used as a political tool,” the official said, citing shale gas and nuclear power as two areas for discussion.
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The United States is poised to become a major exporter of liquefied natural gas in coming years, making inroads into a market that Russia currently dominates.
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Natural gas importers from around the world have urged the Obama administration to speed up approvals of additional export facilities so they can become less reliant on Russia.
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On Tuesday, Biden is scheduled to meet with Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk and President Bronislaw Komorowski. He will also hold talks with Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, who is in Warsaw on an official visit.
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On Wednesday in Vilnius, Biden will meet with Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite and Latvian President Andris Berzins.
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NATO’s top military commander, U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove, also is slated to meet with chiefs of defence in central and eastern Europe to discuss security issues this week, the official said.
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Biden’s trip will serve to underscore to the leaders, as well as to countries like the Czech Republic and Hungary, that “we’ve got their back”, said Julianne Smith, a former deputy national security adviser to Biden, in an interview before the trip.
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The message is also aimed partly at Russia, warning Putin to think twice before messing with NATO allies, said Smith, now with the Center for a New American Security think-tank in Washington.
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pepipop said:
A little bit, but I hate watching videos, I prefer to read. However, it’s an opinion. I don’t see how Putin promotes ‘hate’, as I have not seen it. The ‘hatred’ was already boiling over in Ukraine after the coup, so whilst he’s pulled a fast one, he did it completely with Crimea’s assistance, as they were definitely in on it too and they’ve now got their republic.
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That denial is one heck of an obstacle. Its happened here, its happened in Germany, its happened in Russia, Islam and so forth. It had the Jews not wanting to leave Egypt too. Needless to say I agree with James Brooke, the propaganda is exactly for that reason. This man is not talking about love and peace. He has the common speech of a dictator, hate and war. Geez, if he told you red-heads were next to go would you agree? :confused:

Now Putin is claiming his country was robbed. :rotfl:
 
GaryTaylor said:
That denial is one heck of an obstacle. Its happened here, its happened in Germany, its happened in Russia, Islam and so forth. It had the Jews not wanting to leave Egypt too. Needless to say I agree with James Brooke, the propaganda is exactly for that reason. This man is not talking about love and peace. He has the common speech of a dictator, hate and war. Geez, if he told you red-heads were next to go would you agree? :confused:

Now Putin is claiming his country was robbed. :rotfl:
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From a 'wider perspective, or call it what you wish, the West are viewed as tyrants as much if not more so than Putin ATM, and that includes residents of the Western countries involved. Russia has not attacked other countries, which have nothing at all to do with him (I know the reasons will be justifiable to the West). The Crimeans wanted to leave, to be a Republic and they got their wish. Not one shot was fired.

As a poster, on another site, stated:

The dictator you are talking about is waging few wars at the moment, an illegal prison camp and a drone killing campaign.
 
If Russia had remained passive when it’s neighbor Ukraine descended into near anarchy allowing the West to gain a strong foothold, I have no doubt that similar tactics would have been employed in Belarus and Kazakhstan next.
 
Seamus_L said:
If Russia had remained passive when it’s neighbor Ukraine descended into near anarchy allowing the West to gain a strong foothold, I have no doubt that similar tactics would have been employed in Belarus and Kazakhstan next.
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What is this “West to gain a foothold” business? If the people of Ukraine do not want Yanukovych and the vast majority didn’t, are backed up by their legitimately elected parliament and his own party which impeaches him and forms a new government, what has the ‘West’ or Russia got to do with that?

On the same token, if the Crimeans wanted independence why did Russia have to get involved? Why did the Crimean parliament not negotiate a referendum with the Kiev authorities that would have been in keeping with the constitution of Ukraine, just as the Scottish Parliament has done with the Westminster Parliament in London?

Ukraine was not descending into anarchy. There had been a changeover of power that was legitimated by its parliament to an interim government and the decision to hold free, democratic elections later this year.
 
Well one agenda doesn’t make the other right either. And the way this plays out with Syria, Iran Egypt and the middle east, sure looks like a mess. I’d love to hear those phone conversations with Obama. The difficulties and complexity throughout is staggering.
 
Vouthon said:
What is this “West to gain a foothold” business? If the people of Ukraine do not want Yanukovych and the vast majority didn’t, are backed up by their legitimately elected parliament and his own party which impeaches him and forms a new government, what has the ‘West’ or Russia got to do with that?

Which, no doubt was Putin’s question. Why were the West interfering with the election of a new ‘government’ after a coup, all evidenced by Nuland and the Estonian minister’s leaked phone calls.

On the same token, if the Crimeans wanted independence why did Russia have to get involved? Why did the Crimean parliament not negotiate a referendum with the Kiev authorities that would have been in keeping with the constitution of Ukraine, just as the Scottish Parliament has done with the Westminster Parliament in London?

True, however if they had remained with Ukraine, they ‘may’ not have ever had a hope of getting out of the arrangement. After the coup they saw their chance and took it. They may also want the added security from Russia, as a Republic?

Ukraine was not descending into anarchy. There had been a changeover of power that was legitimated by its parliament to an interim government and the decision to hold free, democratic elections later this year.
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Yes, it was. The coup government was anti-Russian and there are highly populated sectors, pro-Russian, in Ukraine that would be totally against the ‘new’ government. Rioting would have occurred. If they could move the election to next week, it would help.
 
pepipop said:
From a 'wider perspective, or call it what you wish, the West are viewed as tyrants as much if not more so than Putin ATM, and that includes residents of the Western countries involved. Russia has not attacked other countries, which have nothing at all to do with him (I know the reasons will be justifiable to the West). The Crimeans wanted to leave, to be a Republic and they got their wish. Not one shot was fired.

As a poster, on another site, stated:

The dictator you are talking about is waging few wars at the moment, an illegal prison camp and a drone killing campaign.
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But the bigger picture, its not one validating the other. I don’t think its a secret by Putin’s action in Crimea that the bigger picture isn’t the western borders, its the southern border. He stated today he has no other plans for Ukraine. But it sure would help if people worked together for the sake of the people and country. He is at odds on his southern borders and after seeing this I can’t imagine what he would do to defend that.

Obama is another story, I’d love to see him mind his business, but you see we can’t control him either. But “I know” we need a replacement, unlike his faithful party who salute the flag regardless of what atrocity occurs, Church first, then politics. Easy to get lost otherwise. 🙂
 
GaryTaylor said:
But the bigger picture, its not one validating the other. I don’t think its a secret by Putin’s action in Crimea that the bigger picture isn’t the western borders, its the southern border. He stated today he has no other plans for Ukraine. But it sure would help if people worked together for the sake of the people and country. He is at odds on his southern borders and after seeing this I can’t imagine what he would do to defend that.

I would see it differently. Yes he wanted to look after his Southern borders, but he also enabled Crimea to be a Republic. If he had done nothing at all, after the Ukrainian coup, I would doubt that the Ukrainian government would have allowed Crimea to do so, and they would still have been autonomous. So you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours both get what they want of it.

Obama is another story, I’d love to see him mind his business, but you see we can’t control him either. But “I know” we need a replacement, unlike his faithful party who salute the flag regardless of what atrocity occurs, Church first, then politics. Easy to get lost otherwise. 🙂
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I’ll keep out of American politics - as I don’t know enough about it! 🙂
 
The West gaining a foothold business refers to the EU, NATO and politicians like John McCain, who are staunchly anti Russian, and who turned up to encourage the protesters.
 
BREAKING NEWS Russian troops are storming a Ukrainian military base in Simferopol, and one Ukranian soldier has been wounded in the attack, Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports. It quoted an officer at the military topography and navigation centre as saying that its commander has been captured and the rest of the troops have barricaded themselves in on the first floor of a building at the base.
 
15:32: Moldovan Prime Minister Iurie Leanca tells the BBC that what has been happening to Ukraine over Crimea is “nothing new” to the people of his country, where inhabitants of the separatist region of Trans-Dniester are eager to become part of Russia. “We are very worried about developments in Ukraine,” Mr Leanca says.
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5:21: Richard Galpin BBC News, Moscow The move by Russia to absorb Crimea is being watched fearfully by Moldova, where most people in the separatist region of Trans-Dniester - a narrow strip of land between the Dniester river and the Ukrainian border - are eager to become part of Russia.
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bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26625476

I should add that I find the extreme nationalism in Putin’s speech distasteful:
15:19: More of President Putin’s speech in Red Square: “Crimea and Sevastopol are returning to… their home shores, to their home port, to Russia!” he told the crowd. In return, they replied: “Russia!” and “Putin!” The president concluded his speech by shouting: “Glory to Russia!”
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You would think it is like some kind of religious event, like a responsorial psalm: this affirmation from the crowd of Putin’s words. :rolleyes:

How can anyone look at this and not think that there is a worrying cult of personality developing around Putin in Russia which aggressive foreign policy seems only to augment?
 
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