Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

Well the Russians know who will now be footing the bill.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has said that Russia had given Ukraine $11 billion in gas discounts in advance and should claim the money back — a threat repeated Tuesday by Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin.

Remarkable that anyone would take joy in this.

 

[pepipop]

Remarkable that anyone would take joy in this.

Its sarcasm, there is a difference. Let’s just wait and see if it actually happens. Russia has already given Ukraine 3 billion, as the first tranche of the 15 billion they had promised them before the riots and the legally elected government was overthrown.

 

[josie_L]

I have never siad I view all Western reporting as spin and have linked to numerous western MSM links. But I know spin when I see it, and made an example of such with the Russian foerign PM and Kerry re: the Guardian. The facts were true but the spin was not.

I guess you know better than the Ukrainians.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Its sarcasm, there is a difference. Let’s just wait and see if it actually happens. Russia has already given Ukraine 3 billion, as the first tranche of the 15 billion they had promised them before the riots and the legally elected government was overthrown.

But does that really square with the quote in post 653? Give Ukraine money with one hand and demand its repayment and more with the other? Kind of reminds one of Stalin’s cat-and-mouse game with Bukharin. One day have Pravda condemn Bukharin, the next day invite him to stand on Lenin’s tomb for the May Day parade, the next day send him copies of accusations made against him in the Politburo, the next day send him a personal note mocking the accusations.

Has a familiar ring to it. Maybe they teach that at KGB school. Probably do.

 

[gilliam]

WASHINGTON (AP) — Congress is sending President Barack Obama a bill to provide $1 billion in loan guarantees to cash-poor Ukraine and take punitive measures against Russia for its annexation of part of the former Soviet republic.

Russia’s incursion into Crimea caused a deep rift between Moscow and Washington. The bill, passed with bipartisan support, was a way for Congress to denounce Russia’s move and express support for Kiev.

The House voted overwhelmingly to pass it Tuesday. The bill is also aimed at discouraging any further actions that President Vladimir Putin might be contemplating in the region.

The bill provides $1 billion in loan guarantees to Ukraine and supplements sanctions the Obama administration already has levied on Putin’s inner circle and a Russian bank.

bigstory.ap.org/article/congress-pass-aid-ukraine-sanction-russia-0

 

[gilliam]

STOCKHOLM/HELSINKI (Reuters) - When Russian warplanes staged a mock bombing run on Sweden last year, air defences were caught napping. It was the middle of the night and no Swedish planes were scrambled.

Instead, Danish jets belonging to NATO’s Baltic mission based in Lithuania, took to the air to shadow the Russians.

The discussion that incident triggered over Sweden’s ability to defend itself has grown with Russia’s seizure of Crimea from Ukraine. As in neighbour and fellow EU member Finland, Swedes wonder whether to seek shelter in the U.S.-led NATO alliance, abandoning Stockholm’s two centuries of formal neutrality.

Sweden has talked of a “doctrinal shift” in defence policy. In Helsinki, where “Finlandisation” became a Cold War byword for self-imposed neutrality driven by fear of a powerful neighbour, the government has talked of an “open debate” on joining NATO.

As Russia growls, Swedes, Finns eye defence options, NATO

 

[Ridgerunner]

STOCKHOLM/HELSINKI (Reuters) - When Russian warplanes staged a mock bombing run on Sweden last year, air defences were caught napping. It was the middle of the night and no Swedish planes were scrambled.

Instead, Danish jets belonging to NATO’s Baltic mission based in Lithuania, took to the air to shadow the Russians.

The discussion that incident triggered over Sweden’s ability to defend itself has grown with Russia’s seizure of Crimea from Ukraine. As in neighbour and fellow EU member Finland, Swedes wonder whether to seek shelter in the U.S.-led NATO alliance, abandoning Stockholm’s two centuries of formal neutrality.

Sweden has talked of a “doctrinal shift” in defence policy. In Helsinki, where “Finlandisation” became a Cold War byword for self-imposed neutrality driven by fear of a powerful neighbour, the government has talked of an “open debate” on joining NATO.

As Russia growls, Swedes, Finns eye defence options, NATO

It’s natural that they would do this. The Nordic countries (Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland) all put together have a population of about 26 million versus Russia’s 150 million or so. If Russia bordered on the U.S. (population 300 million) it wouldn’t seem so overwhelming. But for Finland alone at 5 million?

Even with a combined population of 26 million, Russian invasion would seem awfully troubling, given that Russia is right across the Finnish border and has just seized part of another country (third time for Russia since Putin). Still, realizing they might find themselves without other support one of these days, it is only natural that these countries would want to act in concert, and with the U.S.weakening itself and taking no lead in much of anything, it’s entirely understandable.

 

[gilliam]

Crimea’s schism splits Orthodox hierarchy

Looks like no freedom of religion in the new Russian Crimea

 

[Ridgerunner]

This is not surprising. There has long been a territorial dispute among Orthodox patriarchates in Ukraine. The Russian patriarchate of the Eastern Orthodox claims sole right to be in Ukraine. So does the patriarchate of Kiev. Even more “outside” from the standpoint of the Russians are the Eastern Orthodox of the patriarchate of Constantinople. Vastly more so are Catholics, whether Latin or Greek.

Orthodoxy is territorial; the Russian branch most of all.

 

[pepipop]

bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-30/siemens-ceo-rebuked-as-german-business-defends-putin-partnership.html

Siemens CEO Rebuked as German Business Defends Putin Partnership

---

*Asked if Putin must be stopped, Adidas CEO Herbert Hainer said, “I’d turn the question around,” according to Die Welt. “I wonder if one shouldn’t have included Putin in the process much earlier, rather than starting talks when it’s too late.”

ThyssenKrupp CEO Heinrich Hiesinger said “Russia felt cornered.” Deutsche Post CEO Frank Appel said the U.S. and its allies had meddled “in the front yard of another big power” and questioned calls by EU leaders including Merkel to review Europe’s energy ties with Russia, saying Germany “will always be dependent on others” for fossil fuel, according to Die Welt.

Kaeser said meeting with Putin showed that Munich-based Siemens, Europe’s biggest engineering company, “won’t be overly influenced by short-term turbulences” involving Russia. “We’re counting on dialogue and mutual understanding,” he said in a ZDF television interview after returning from his trip, which he said Merkel’s chancellery knew about in advance.****

 

[Ridgerunner]

bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-30/siemens-ceo-rebuked-as-german-business-defends-putin-partnership.html

Siemens CEO Rebuked as German Business Defends Putin Partnership

---

*Asked if Putin must be stopped, Adidas CEO Herbert Hainer said, “I’d turn the question around,” according to Die Welt. “I wonder if one shouldn’t have included Putin in the process much earlier, rather than starting talks when it’s too late.”

ThyssenKrupp CEO Heinrich Hiesinger said “Russia felt cornered.” Deutsche Post CEO Frank Appel said the U.S. and its allies had meddled “in the front yard of another big power” and questioned calls by EU leaders including Merkel to review Europe’s energy ties with Russia, saying Germany “will always be dependent on others” for fossil fuel, according to Die Welt.

Kaeser said meeting with Putin showed that Munich-based Siemens, Europe’s biggest engineering company, “won’t be overly influenced by short-term turbulences” involving Russia. “We’re counting on dialogue and mutual understanding,” he said in a ZDF television interview after returning from his trip, which he said Merkel’s chancellery knew about in advance.****

This isn’t terribly surprising. European countries, the ones with wealth, have utterly neglected development of their own petroleum resources other than North Sea oil and gas, and that latter development began before environmental excessiveness took hold in Europe. If one researches it, one finds that there is not much going on in Europe in the way of local resource development. In the Netherlands, which appears to be the richest single resource country, fracking is forbidden by law. I understand France recently did the same, though France definitely has significant potential for natural gas.

Possibly the Crimean debacle will cause some of those countries to wake up. Many of them are giving up on things like windmills and solar, so possibly they will seek at least a degree of self-sufficiency.

Pipeline location and Russian influence in other parts of the world are also factors. Russia has been gradually placing potential “choke points” in the way of transmission from the “stans”.

The rest of the above is silly though. It assumes Putin is such a child that he would conquer part of a soverign nation because he’s miffed at being mildly dissed by other countries in Europe.

 

[pepipop]

This isn’t terribly surprising. European countries, the ones with wealth, have utterly neglected development of their own petroleum resources other than North Sea oil and gas, and that latter development began before environmental excessiveness took hold in Europe. If one researches it, one finds that there is not much going on in Europe in the way of local resource development. In the Netherlands, which appears to be the richest single resource country, fracking is forbidden by law. I understand France recently did the same, though France definitely has significant potential for natural gas.

Possibly the Crimean debacle will cause some of those countries to wake up. Many of them are giving up on things like windmills and solar, so possibly they will seek at least a degree of self-sufficiency.

Pipeline location and Russian influence in other parts of the world are also factors. Russia has been gradually placing potential “choke points” in the way of transmission from the “stans”.

The rest of the above is silly though. It assumes Putin is such a child that he would conquer part of a soverign nation because he’s miffed at being mildly dissed by other countries in Europe.

That’s the way lots of people see the situation, and the reason why Putin acted so ‘hastily’ in relation to Crimea. Crimea and Russia was already a done deal but should have been carried out under an ‘elected’ Ukraine government signed up to the EU, and all would have gone by smoothly. Crimea would have asked for independence from Ukraine, EU would have to support their request, as Kosovo would have been used as an example, and then they would have asked to be under Russia.

The EU/USA backing and interference in Ukraine, then ‘dropping the ball’ after offering a financial deal and reneging on it, which ultimately led to rioting, the overthrowing of the elected government followed by EU/USA’s intervention, in the choosing of an interim government and last but not least - NATO moving closer and closer to Russia’s border - was just one step too far.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That’s the way lots of people see the situation, and the reason why Putin acted so ‘hastily’ in relation to Crimea. Crimea and Russia was already a done deal but should have been carried out under an ‘elected’ Ukraine government signed up to the EU, and all would have gone by smoothly. Crimea would have asked for independence from Ukraine, EU would have to support their request, as Kosovo would have been used as an example, and then they would have asked to be under Russia.

The EU/USA backing and interference in Ukraine, then ‘dropping the ball’ after offering a financial deal and reneging on it, which ultimately led to rioting, the overthrowing of the elected government followed by EU/USA’s intervention, in the choosing of an interim government and last but not least - NATO moving closer and closer to Russia’s border - was just one step too far.

I’m not buying this, and no one should. The problems in Ukraine would not have been “solved” by some kind of diplomatic niceties exchanged between Putin and the EU. Countries don’t conquer other countries for reasons like that. Crimea was part of Ukraine. That was agreed by the world at large and by Russia in particular. Putin wanted Crimea and seized it, and he probably isn’t finished re-conquering pieces of the former Soviet Union/Russian Empire. He did it in Georgia and is doing it in Moldova as well. And I doubt he’s finished seizing other countries or parts thereof.

The west didn’t cause the rioting. The rioting was due to the former Russian agent/president’s troops shooting 90 peaceful protesters of his corrupt government, one of whom was a Ukrainian Catholic priest. The U.S. did not select the present government. Ukraine’s parliament did.

The Russian conquest of Crimea was an act of aggression and seizure, and no rationalization will change that obvious fact.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Looks like Europeans are waking up to their vulnerability in natural gas and are now starting to consider developing their own resources. Late in the game, but the right thing to do. money.cnn.com/2014/03/31/news/economy/europe-russia-gas-fracking/index.html

 

[KyivAndrew]

Priest: Ukrainian Catholics flee Crimea to escape threats of arrest

Members of the Ukrainian Catholic Church are fleeing Crimea to escape threats of arrest and property seizures, a priest has said.

“The situation remains very serious, and we don’t know what will happen — the new government here is portraying us all as nationalists and extremists,” said Father Mykhailo Milchakovskyi, a parish rector and military chaplain from Kerch, Crimea, who was speaking to the Catholic News Service just four days after Russia finalised the region’s annexation.

He said that officials from Russia’s Federal Security Service, or FSB, had called him in for questioning about his community and to ask whether he “recognised the new order.”

Father Milchakovskyi said that he and his family and at least two-thirds of his parishioners had left Kerch for Ukrainian-controlled territory on the advice of Ukrainian Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of Kiev-Halych.

“All my parishioners are patriotic Ukrainians who love their Crimean homeland. But Russia is now seeking to drive us out,” he said on Tuesday.

He said Father Mykola Kvych, pastor of the Dormition of the Mother of God Parish in Sevastopol, Crimea, also fled after being detained and beaten by Russian forces, who accused him of “sponsoring extremism and mass unrest.”

“During 10 years in Sevastopol, he never said or did anything against Russians,” Father Milchakovskyi added.

Father Milchakovskyi said he hoped Russian Orthodox leaders would be “interested in maintaining religious freedom” in Crimea, but added that Ukrainian Catholics now had “no wish for contacts with them.”

“We don’t trust them — they’re unfriendly, imperialistic people, who are being helped by the FSB and who’ll want the new order to ensure their religious monopoly,” the priest said.
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/03/25/priest-ukrainian-catholics-flee-crimea-to-escape-threats-of-arrest/

Personally, I wonder if some of the pro-Putin defenders who complain about the so-called MSM’s reporting on Ukraine and Crimea (while linking to Kremlin ‘news’ outlets like RT without objection) also include the Catholic press in this amorphous MSM.

 

[pepipop]

I’m not buying this, and no one should. The problems in Ukraine would not have been “solved” by some kind of diplomatic niceties exchanged between Putin and the EU. Countries don’t conquer other countries for reasons like that. Crimea was part of Ukraine. That was agreed by the world at large and by Russia in particular. Putin wanted Crimea and seized it, and he probably isn’t finished re-conquering pieces of the former Soviet Union/Russian Empire. He did it in Georgia and is doing it in Moldova as well. And I doubt he’s finished seizing other countries or parts thereof.

I’ll say nothing.

The west didn’t cause the rioting. The rioting was due to the former Russian agent/president’s troops shooting 90 peaceful protesters of his corrupt government, one of whom was a Ukrainian Catholic priest. The U.S. did not select the present government. Ukraine’s parliament did.

Yet, the Estonian FM told the EU chief in foreign policy, that the people were killed by somebody from the new coalition - which would make a lot more sense, as shooting rioters is not going to ‘keep’ anyone in power, that’s a sure fired way of being kicked out. People on the ground, usually know what actually happens.

Estonian FM Paet stated:

"So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,’ he said, referring to the former opposition to deposed President Viktor Yanukovich.
He added that “Ukrainians do not trust the Maidan leaders as all the opposition politicians have a ‘dirty past’.”

I’ve explained, ad nauseam, regarding your last paragraph (which magically disappeared), that it was not an aggressive act.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Well the Russians know who will now be footing the bill.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has said that Russia had given Ukraine $11 billion in gas discounts in advance and should claim the money back — a threat repeated Tuesday by Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin.

Many of these discounts were issued because the Ukrainian government had extended a long-term lease (through 2040, IIRC?) with the Russian government as to the Russian naval base in Sevastopol. Ukraine upheld its end of that lease agreement, but Russia annexed Crimea and then moved to void the lease and rescind the discounts.

Certainly requiring any lease payments by Russia would be silly since they’re now in control of Crimea, but rescinding the gas discounts seems rather petty – Ukraine intended to comply with all its obligations under the lease, but is unable to do so because of Russia’s actions.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Priest: Ukrainian Catholics flee Crimea to escape threats of arrest

Members of the Ukrainian Catholic Church are fleeing Crimea to escape threats of arrest and property seizures, a priest has said.

This is quite sad…

 

[pepipop]

Many of these discounts were issued because the Ukrainian government had extended a long-term lease (through 2040, IIRC?) with the Russian government as to the Russian naval base in Sevastopol. Ukraine upheld its end of that lease agreement, but Russia annexed Crimea and then moved to void the lease and rescind the discounts.

Certainly requiring any lease payments by Russia would be silly since they’re now in control of Crimea, but rescinding the gas discounts seems rather petty – Ukraine intended to comply with all its obligations under the lease, but is unable to do so because of Russia’s actions.

I would agree it is very petty and not good form, but let’s see if they actually do it.

 

[MugenOne]

I think Pipelineistan is at play here. Russia is building a competing pipeline known as Southern Stream from southern Russia via the Black Sea to southern Europe. Because of the Russia-Ukraine gas disputes, the pipeline is routed through Turkey’s waters to avoid the exclusive economic zone Ukraine. The project is seen as rival to the planned Nabucco pipeline which is backed the U.S. The South Stream pipeline is a political project to counter Nabucco and to expand Russian presence in the region. Syria, anyone?