Ukraine (cont.)

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[The west didn’t cause the rioting. The rioting was due to the former Russian agent/president’s troop
s shooting 90 peaceful protesters of his corrupt government, one of whom was a Ukrainian Catholic priest. The U.S. did not select the present government. Ukraine’s parliament did.

Yet, the Estonian FM told the EU chief in foreign policy, that the people were killed by somebody from the new coalition - which would make a lot more sense, as shooting rioters is not going to ‘keep’ anyone in power, that’s a sure fired way of being kicked out. People on the ground, usually know what actually happens.

Estonian FM Paet stated:

"So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,’ he said, referring to the former opposition to deposed President Viktor Yanukovich.
He added that “Ukrainians do not trust the Maidan leaders as all the opposition politicians have a ‘dirty past’.”


I’ve explained, ad nauseam, regarding your last paragraph (which magically disappeared), that it was not an aggressive act.

Well, I think I’ll take the word of the Catholic clergy who were there over that of this Estonian foreign minister, if, indeed, the minister even said it.

My last paragraph which didn’t disappear at all, was: The Russian conquest of Crimea was an act of aggression and seizure, and no rationalization will change that obvious fact.

Crimea was part of Ukraine. Russia agreed to that. Then Russia seized it and incorporated it into Russia. No mystery to that.
 
I think Pipelineistan is at play here. Russia is building a competing pipeline known as Southern Stream from southern Russia via the Black Sea to southern Europe. Because of the Russia-Ukraine gas disputes, the pipeline is routed through Turkey’s waters to avoid the exclusive economic zone Ukraine. The project is seen as rival to the planned Nabucco pipeline which is backed the U.S. The South Stream pipeline is a political project to counter Nabucco and to expand Russian presence in the region. Syria, anyone?
It appeared to me, years ago, that Russia intends to stand astride all major pipelines from the sources to Western Europe. So far, it has done a pretty good job of it. Western Europe and the U.S. should not have abandoned the Middle East to Iran/Russia. Now that it has done so, Europe desperately needs to develop its own resources and keep the sea lanes open from Iranian or Russian interdiction of LNG and oil.
 
…the Estonian FM told the EU chief in foreign policy, that the people were killed by somebody from the new coalition - which would make a lot more sense, as shooting rioters is not going to ‘keep’ anyone in power, that’s a sure fired way of being kicked out. People on the ground, usually know what actually happens.
Estonian FM Paet stated:
"So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,’ he said, referring to the former opposition to deposed President Viktor Yanukovich.
He added that "Ukrainians do not trust the Maidan leaders as all the opposition politicians
Why do you keep repeating this Kremlin propaganda conspiracy trope all the time? Did it ever occur to you that something could be lost in translation when a Ukrainian in a crisis situation speaks to an Estonian who then speaks to an English woman? Go to the original source, Dr. Olha Bohomolets, who has already claimed that the Estonian Minister misunderstood what she was trying to say.

The Russian secret police the FSB tapped and released that Ashton phone call, and they have already shown their untrustworthiness in doctoring a telephone tape of Tymoshenko to claim she wants to nuke Russians in Ukraine. Why would one trust the Kremlin which is run by a proud unreconstructed KGB agent for whom lying and disinformation were always a tool of policy?

**Photos Link Yanukovych’s Troops To Maidan Massacre **

A U.S journalist says photographs published alongside his investigative report this weekend “appear to reveal the truth” about who shot dead 53 antigovernment protesters at Kyiv’s Independence Square on February 20.

Jamie Dettmer says the photographs suggest the killers were ousted President Viktor Yanukovych’s own security forces – not a foreign-backed opposition faction or nationalist elements among demonstrators, as Yanukovych’s ousted regime and the Kremlin have claimed.

The photographs were taken in a courtyard of the headquarters of Ukraine’s State Security Service, the SBU, shortly before snipers began firing on demonstrators just three blocks away.

Some troops photographed within SBU headquarters are wearing dark uniforms and yellow identification arm bands as they arm themselves with snipers’ rifles and modified Kalashnikovs.

Dettmer, who spoke recently to RFE/RL’s Russian service, said the photos show a pro-Yanukovych Ukrainian Special Forces unit known as the “Alfa Team.”

The Maidan massacre is now part of a propaganda war. The Kremlin claims protest leaders themselves or U.S. spies engineered the killings.

Russia’s state-controlled media and its UN Ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, have claimed the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv was involved.

Many of Maidan’s victims were killed by clean shots to the head or neck – forensic evidence Dettmer describes as “telltale wounds inflicted by expert marksmen.”

Earlier this month, a phone call between EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet was released in which the pair discussed rumors that the snipers may have been hired by Euromaidan leaders.

Dettmer tracked down Olga Bogomolets, the Maidan doctor Paet quoted to support claims.

Bogomolets told the reporter that Paet must have misunderstood her amid the chaos because she only saw snipers killing protesters.

rferl.org/content/ukraine-snipers-sbu-photos-video/25318776.html
 
Well, I think I’ll take the word of the Catholic clergy who were there over that of this Estonian foreign minister, if, indeed, the minister even said it.

My last paragraph which didn’t disappear at all, was: The Russian conquest of Crimea was an act of aggression and seizure, and no rationalization will change that obvious fact.

Crimea was part of Ukraine. Russia agreed to that. Then Russia seized it and incorporated it into Russia. No mystery to that.
*In the call, Paet said he had been told snipers responsible for killing police and civilians in Kiev last month were protest movement provocateurs rather than supporters of then-president Viktor Yanukovych. Ashton responds: “I didn’t know … Gosh.” *

theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

It’s impossible to ascertain without an investigation. People at the riots would ‘assume’ it was Yanukovich, as he was in power at the time.

Last November, after 40 yrs, the British secret army confessed to shooting unarmed, suspected IRA men, in NI, that included civilians. At the time and for years after, the murders were blamed on the NI protestant, terrorist, organisations and without doubt caused retaliation shootings - so more people killed.

breakingnews.ie/ireland/members-of-secret-british-army-admit-to-shooting-ira-suspects-in-belfast-in-614962.html

So until there is an official, neutral, investigation no-one will know for certain. Logic, however, would point to it being members of the new Ukraine government, as they had the most to gain from the shootings.
 
Why do you keep repeating this Kremlin propaganda conspiracy trope all the time? Did it ever occur to you that something could be lost in translation when a Ukrainian in a crisis situation speaks to an Estonian who then speaks to an English woman? Go to the original source, Dr. Olha Bohomolets, who has already claimed that the Estonian Minister misunderstood what she was trying to say.

The Russian secret police the FSB tapped and released that Ashton phone call, and they have already shown their untrustworthiness in doctoring a telephone tape of Tymoshenko to claim she wants to nuke Russians in Ukraine. Why would one trust the Kremlin which is run by a proud unreconstructed KGB agent for whom lying and disinformation were always a tool of policy?

**Photos Link Yanukovych’s Troops To Maidan Massacre **

A U.S journalist says photographs published alongside his investigative report this weekend “appear to reveal the truth” about who shot dead 53 antigovernment protesters at Kyiv’s Independence Square on February 20.

Jamie Dettmer says the photographs suggest the killers were ousted President Viktor Yanukovych’s own security forces – not a foreign-backed opposition faction or nationalist elements among demonstrators, as Yanukovych’s ousted regime and the Kremlin have claimed.

The photographs were taken in a courtyard of the headquarters of Ukraine’s State Security Service, the SBU, shortly before snipers began firing on demonstrators just three blocks away.

Some troops photographed within SBU headquarters are wearing dark uniforms and yellow identification arm bands as they arm themselves with snipers’ rifles and modified Kalashnikovs.

Dettmer, who spoke recently to RFE/RL’s Russian service, said the photos show a pro-Yanukovych Ukrainian Special Forces unit known as the “Alfa Team.”

The Maidan massacre is now part of a propaganda war. The Kremlin claims protest leaders themselves or U.S. spies engineered the killings.

Russia’s state-controlled media and its UN Ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, have claimed the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv was involved.

Many of Maidan’s victims were killed by clean shots to the head or neck – forensic evidence Dettmer describes as “telltale wounds inflicted by expert marksmen.”

Earlier this month, a phone call between EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet was released in which the pair discussed rumors that the snipers may have been hired by Euromaidan leaders.

Dettmer tracked down Olga Bogomolets, the Maidan doctor Paet quoted to support claims.

Bogomolets told the reporter that Paet must have misunderstood her amid the chaos because she only saw snipers killing protesters.

rferl.org/content/ukraine-snipers-sbu-photos-video/25318776.html
Here’s the Guardian link, linking to the story. A full, neutral investigation needs to be undertaken, as either side will play to their own agenda.

theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet
 
Priest: Ukrainian Catholics flee Crimea to escape threats of arrest

Members of the Ukrainian Catholic Church are fleeing Crimea to escape threats of arrest and property seizures, a priest has said.

“The situation remains very serious, and we don’t know what will happen — the new government here is portraying us all as nationalists and extremists,” said Father Mykhailo Milchakovskyi, a parish rector and military chaplain from Kerch, Crimea, who was speaking to the Catholic News Service just four days after Russia finalised the region’s annexation.

He said that officials from Russia’s Federal Security Service, or FSB, had called him in for questioning about his community and to ask whether he “recognised the new order.”

Father Milchakovskyi said that he and his family and at least two-thirds of his parishioners had left Kerch for Ukrainian-controlled territory on the advice of Ukrainian Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of Kiev-Halych.

“All my parishioners are patriotic Ukrainians who love their Crimean homeland. But Russia is now seeking to drive us out,” he said on Tuesday.

He said Father Mykola Kvych, pastor of the Dormition of the Mother of God Parish in Sevastopol, Crimea, also fled after being detained and beaten by Russian forces, who accused him of “sponsoring extremism and mass unrest.”

“During 10 years in Sevastopol, he never said or did anything against Russians,” Father Milchakovskyi added.

Father Milchakovskyi said he hoped Russian Orthodox leaders would be “interested in maintaining religious freedom” in Crimea, but added that Ukrainian Catholics now had “no wish for contacts with them.”

**"We don’t trust them — they’re unfriendly, imperialistic people, who are being helped by the FSB and who’ll want the new order to ensure their religious monopoly,” **the priest said.
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/03/25/priest-ukrainian-catholics-flee-crimea-to-escape-threats-of-arrest/

Personally, I wonder if some of the pro-Putin defenders who complain about the so-called MSM’s reporting on Ukraine and Crimea (while linking to Kremlin ‘news’ outlets like RT without objection) also include the Catholic press in this amorphous MSM.
Without a doubt.
 
Logic, however, would point to it being members of the new Ukraine government, as they had the most to gain from the shootings.
Ukraine isn’t Northern Ireland or Ireland. I am Ukrainian, speak Ukrainian, read Ukrainian newspapers, watch Ukrainian news, and know people in Ukraine and logic does not point to the conspiracy theory to which you and the Kremlin point. I’ve already posted Dr. Bohomolets’ quote but in the end, after reading your posts, you are pretty well set in stone in your views on Ukraine and on the West’s role.

You seem to accept the Kremlin’s view on this whole Ukrainian situation pretty much so I ask: do you approve of the Kremlin’s treatment of Ukrainian Catholics in Crimea, or do you think Catholic priests are not to be trusted in reporting the situation in Ukraine and their persecution at the hands of Russian forces in Crimea? And I’m asking this in all honesty.
 
Ukraine isn’t Northern Ireland or Ireland. I am Ukrainian, speak Ukrainian, read Ukrainian newspapers, watch Ukrainian news, and know people in Ukraine and logic does not point to the conspiracy theory to which you and the Kremlin point. I’ve already posted Dr. Bohomolets’ quote but in the end, after reading your posts, you are pretty well set in stone in your views on Ukraine and on the West’s role.

You seem to accept the Kremlin’s view on this whole Ukrainian situation so I ask: do you approve of the Kremlin’s treatment of Ukrainian Catholics in Crimea, or do you think Catholic priests are not to be trusted in reporting the situation in Ukraine? And I’m asking this in all honesty.
I know you’re Ukrainian, my point was that after, 40 years, we learned the truth. If anyone had pointed a finger at the British government in the '70’s they would have been laughed at, or locked up. My point being, don’t believe anything until it’s fully proven.

My only view toward the Ukrainian people is that I sympathise and empathise with them fully, especially during the rioting and killings. I also, empathise with them, in relation to their current economic situation, ( as I live in Ireland) and sincerely hope the austerity measures to be implemented will not break the camel’s back.

My position on the Crimea/Russia scenario is from a Western/Russian viewpoint - and I’ve no doubt you’ve read my postings about Putin and Crimea. I do not believe, for an instance, that Russia is going to invade Ukraine - this is mainly to do with a Western/Russian stand-off. If I’m proven wrong then I’ll totally change my stance.

Religion had absolutely nothing to do with this situation, it was not a sectarian civil war. Anti-Catholicism can be found everywhere in the world and, of course, I do not agree with how Catholic priests or Catholics are treated there - as I’m fully aware of what it is like to be shunned and treated as a second class citizen, because of being born Catholic.
 
*In the call, Paet said he had been told snipers responsible for killing police and civilians in Kiev last month were protest movement provocateurs rather than supporters of then-president Viktor Yanukovych. Ashton responds: “I didn’t know … Gosh.” *

theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

It’s impossible to ascertain without an investigation. People at the riots would ‘assume’ it was Yanukovich, as he was in power at the time.

Last November, after 40 yrs, the British secret army confessed to shooting unarmed, suspected IRA men, in NI, that included civilians. At the time and for years after, the murders were blamed on the NI protestant, terrorist, organisations and without doubt caused retaliation shootings - so more people killed.

breakingnews.ie/ireland/members-of-secret-british-army-admit-to-shooting-ira-suspects-in-belfast-in-614962.html

So until there is an official, neutral, investigation no-one will know for certain. Logic, however, would point to it being members of the new Ukraine government, as they had the most to gain from the shootings.
None of this has a thing to do with the IRA or the Brits in Northern Ireland.
 
None of this has a thing to do with the IRA or the Brits in Northern Ireland.
It was to highlight how ‘no-one’ ever knows what goes on within a civil conflict - i.e. who ordered the snipers in Ukraine - until someone confesses and/or absolute evidence is found. The example given, was to show that it took ‘40 years’ for the information to come out, up to that point others had been blamed and murdered.
 
It was to indicate how ‘no-one’ ever knows what goes on within a civil conflict - i.e. who ordered the snipers in Ukraine - until someone confesses and/or absolute evidence is found. The example given, was to show that it took ‘40 years’ for the information to come out, up to that point others had been blamed and murdered.
Sure, just as nobody knows for absolute total certainty that there was no shooter on the “grassy knoll” at JFK’s assassination.

But some things are obvious, and when it comes to the interim testimony, I’ll take that of Catholic clergy over that of the speculative rationalizations for imperialist revanchism.
 
Ukraine crisis: NATO military chief warns Russian troops could invade swiftly

Brussels, Belgium (CNN)
– NATO’s military chief warned Wednesday that Russian troops could begin moving on Ukraine within 12 hours of being given an order, amid fears that Moscow could seek to invade its eastern region.

Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO’s supreme allied commander Europe, also told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour that with 40,000 troops massed near the border, Russia has all the components necessary to move on Ukraine.

These forces are “supported by fixed-wing aircraft, rotary aircraft, all of the logistics required in order to successfully make an incursion if they needed,” he said.

cnn.com/2014/04/02/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
 
Ukraine crisis: NATO military chief warns Russian troops could invade swiftly

Brussels, Belgium (CNN)
– NATO’s military chief warned Wednesday that Russian troops could begin moving on Ukraine within 12 hours of being given an order, amid fears that Moscow could seek to invade its eastern region.

Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO’s supreme allied commander Europe, also told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour that with 40,000 troops massed near the border, Russia has all the components necessary to move on Ukraine.

These forces are “supported by fixed-wing aircraft, rotary aircraft, all of the logistics required in order to successfully make an incursion if they needed,” he said.

cnn.com/2014/04/02/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
This is costing Russia an immense amount of money. One doubts that it’s happening for no reason.
 
You seem to accept the Kremlin’s view on this whole Ukrainian situation pretty much so I ask: do you approve of the Kremlin’s treatment of Ukrainian Catholics in Crimea, or do you think Catholic priests are not to be trusted in reporting the situation in Ukraine and their persecution at the hands of Russian forces in Crimea?
Here is a speech by a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest Father Arsenych, calling for assassination and terror in Ukraine:
“Would the fighters of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army tolerate Tabachnik and Yanukovych today?
The only effective methods of combat are assassination and terror!
The right way to communicate with the enemies is to fire at them!
Our message to them is the message of death by hanging.
…We want to be sure that no Chinese, Negro, Jew or Muscovite will try to come and grab our land tomorrow!
…The ground will be burning under their feet, like our torches are burning today!
Our hand must be firm! Glory to the Ukraine!”
The speech was given in 2010, but it was not condemned by the UGCC until 3 years later.
youtube.com/watch?v=C5EXdbzIDEk
 
I know you’re Ukrainian, my point was that after, 40 years, we learned the truth. If anyone had pointed a finger at the British government in the '70’s they would have been laughed at, or locked up. My point being, don’t believe anything until it’s fully proven.
What does the situation in NI have anything to do with the situation in the Ukraine, except to say that the British propaganda of that time is similar to that being spun by the Russian government today? Moreover, the Ukrainians have a lot more to lose in this crisis than Russia, i.e., it’s like David fighting Goliath, hence there is no rational reason why the Ukrainian government and other institutions within the country (religious and/or otherwise) would LIE about the threat represented by Russia, i.e., if they are saying that Russians are amassing on their borders then why shouldn’t we believe them? It makes no sense for Ukrainians to antagonize Russia by spreading lies about its threat to themselves when it can cause a World War, because such a war would cause the Ukrainians the most loss.
My only view toward the Ukrainian people is that I sympathise and empathise with them fully, especially during the rioting and killings. I also, empathise with them, in relation to their current economic situation, ( as I live in Ireland) and sincerely hope the austerity measures to be implemented will not break the camel’s back.
And what’s so horrible about austerity measures, i.e., can we live high off the hop when the money for it is not even there?
My position on the Crimea/Russia scenario is from a Western/Russian viewpoint - and I’ve no doubt you’ve read my postings about Putin and Crimea. I do not believe, for an instance, that Russia is going to invade Ukraine - this is mainly to do with a Western/Russian stand-off. If I’m proven wrong then I’ll totally change my stance.
No, it is not from a Western/Russian point of view, it is simply Russian (even when you did on occasion use a Western source it was always to the advantage of your Russian pov), moreover, you never once took into consideration Ukrainian sources, and that’s very telling.
Religion had absolutely nothing to do with this situation, it was not a sectarian civil war. Anti-Catholicism can be found everywhere in the world and, of course, I do not agree with how Catholic priests or Catholics are treated there - as I’m fully aware of what it is like to be shunned and treated as a second class citizen, because of being born Catholic.
So let’s get this straight Putin gets authorization from the Duma to invade Crimea on the pretext that Russian ethnics are endangered, which some CAF posters claimed was a reality and thus justification for said invasion and/or uprising, only for me to be told that it is no longer relevant that people are being persecuted (because this is not a sectarian civil war). Wonderful, how ironic!!!

And let’s get this straight prior to the annexation people were living in relative peace, that is, before Russian propaganda roused the Russian ethnics to believe that they were in danger. Ever since it’s incorporation into the Russian federation minorities are now being persecuted, such that, it is a reflection of what and who PUTIN is, i.e., the bad guy that he actually is. It’s no surprise to those of us who knew that Russia was a far cry from being a democratic and/or human rights haven, that we are seeing this.

God bless.
 
Here is a speech by a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest Father Arsenych, calling for assassination and terror in Ukraine:
“Would the fighters of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army tolerate Tabachnik and Yanukovych today?
The only effective methods of combat are assassination and terror!
The right way to communicate with the enemies is to fire at them!
Our message to them is the message of death by hanging.
…We want to be sure that no Chinese, Negro, Jew or Muscovite will try to come and grab our land tomorrow!
…The ground will be burning under their feet, like our torches are burning today!
Our hand must be firm! Glory to the Ukraine!”
The speech was given in 2010, but it was not condemned by the UGCC until 3 years later.
youtube.com/watch?v=C5EXdbzIDEk
And you’re point being that NO Catholic priest can now be trusted? Do you have anymore examples of such extremism or are you happy with just citing the one to confirm your point, by the way, what is your point being that there was relative peace in Crimea prior to the occupation/annexation? And let us not forget that the UGCC and UOG as a whole condemned the occupation of Crimea by the Russians.

P.S. Oh, and I “loved” (inject sarcasm and contempt) the commentary and the other videos posted on the sidebar, (the “whore” of Babylon epithet is kind of getting old), just curious, but how did you come to find such a video?
 
Possibly because I view this as a ‘person’ e.g., as an nationalist wishing to link to Ireland, rather than Britain.

And therein lies the problem.
Or as a Crimean, who’s struggling financially and wants a better standard of living, by linking to the stronger, closer linked country. I do not view this situation, and never will, as big bad Putin coming in to ‘steal’ Crimea and hauled it kicking and screaming, into Russia. They wanted to join, for patriotic and economic reasons!
 
Here is a speech by a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest Father Arsenych, calling for assassination and terror in Ukraine:
“Would the fighters of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army tolerate Tabachnik and Yanukovych today?
The only effective methods of combat are assassination and terror!
The right way to communicate with the enemies is to fire at them!
Our message to them is the message of death by hanging.
…We want to be sure that no Chinese, Negro, Jew or Muscovite will try to come and grab our land tomorrow!
…The ground will be burning under their feet, like our torches are burning today!
Our hand must be firm! Glory to the Ukraine!”
The speech was given in 2010, but it was not condemned by the UGCC until 3 years later.
youtube.com/watch?v=C5EXdbzIDEk
Aside from the suspicion that the utube video is bogus entirely, and assuming it really was said by a real Ukrainian Catholic priest, one can only reasonably surmise that there is a nut case in every societal context. One remembers Obama’s pastor damning the United STates, for instance, and yet nobody on the left condemns Obama himself for it or any of Rev Wright’s congregation, or all protestant pastors, and certainly does not condemn the entire Democrat party for it, let alone the whole population of the U.S.

No sane person in Ukraine would ever imagine that a “Negro” would be likely to grab Ukrainian land, though it is a fact that China has leased vast tracts in the Ukraine under Yanukovych; something to which some Ukrainians likely object and obviously one Muscovite (Putin) threatened and did grab Ukrainian land and a lot of it. So this poor soul undoubtedly went over the edge, but based it on two things that were observably threatening and true.

It wasn’t so long ago that people were bewailing their belief that China was going to end up owning everything in the U.S. Before that, it was the Arab oil magnates who were going to take over. Before that, it was the Japanese.

Not an uncommon thing among the mentally fragile. But it proves, if anything, only that one Ukrainian was mentally fragile and overcome by his fears.
 
Just looked at the Youtube video tendered to prove that all Ukrainian priests are racists and killers. It’s in Ukrainian or perhaps Russian with dubbing by some unknown person or entity. No credits are given. No verification of the source.

This should be consigned to the rubbish heap of propaganda until someone like Kyiv Andrew listens to it and determines what this man (if he really is a priest and not some Russian imposter, which is also not demonstrated) really said.

I recall reading, not long ago, of the KGB falsification of the history of Pope Pius XII during WWII, written by Ion Pacepa who was formerly the head of the KGB affiliate in Romania. The KGB and its affiliates did a lot of stuff like this, and as to Pope Pius XII, actually got a lot of people in the West to believe it even though it was totally fabricated. They did a lot of falsification of things about the Church and priests, and a lot of people believed that too. Looks like the KGB Colonel might not have forgotten old ways learned young.
 
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