Ukraine (cont.)

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Here is a video from 11th May in Krasnoarmeysk when the local civilians followed and taunted the National Guard as they withdrew from the town. Shots are then fired back at the crowd and one man is shot badly in the leg.

I never watch these videos and read the commentaries attached to them or other threads, as they make me feel sick. This shows how ‘untrained’ the ‘guards’ are, by shooting at unarmed civilians because of verbal provocation.

Yes, they are shouting at the guards as they walk away but with no rioting, throwing of objects or anything, just shouting. The response by the guards is to set off a rounds of bullets shooting back at the unarmed men and then hitting one in the leg.

youtube.com/watch?v=MHtJbyTTZyM&fmt=18
Actually, this is Italianskaya Street in the city of Mariyuopol’. I’m concerned about the man who was shot; he was losing a lot of blood, real fast.

There’s a phrase in Russian, “Kto kogo?” Loosely translated, it means, “Who is doing what to whom?” this video doesn’t answer that question at all. We don’t know who the mob of chanting hooligans were, and we don’t know who the uniformed shooters were.
 
I just saw the video, doesn’t tell you much, however, let us assume that the soldiers are Ukrainian, according to the commentary I just read (assuming this is a correct translation), the crowd was apparently saying “fags”, **“we will kill you all”/B], “come here, 1one1”, i.e., threatening to kill someone is an offense is it not, i.e., you can get arrested for that, no? Moreover, these people were walking towards and not away from these armed soldiers, while continuously chanting these comments. Whoever shot the bullets did not intend to harm the protestors but to scare them off, i.e., there were many bullets shot into the air one of which could have ricocheted off of something and hit a protestor, again, we don’t know much of what is happening in this video, but there was only one person shot. If the intent of those soldiers was to harm the protestors than they would have been harmed en masse, but they weren’t. Assuming this is all real and not some hoax and the soldiers are Ukrainian while the protestors are pro-Russian all this video attests to is that these protestors believe all the vile Russian propaganda that is being spewed about the present interim government (which will be gone in less than two weeks from now).

p.s. Again, it seems rather odd for the separatists to go to the trouble of creating separate political enclaves when the interim government will be gone soon, but once you realize that their true intent is to join Russia with the help, of course, of Russia itself (even though the majority of Eastern Ukrainians want unification) than it is no longer odd but extremely dangerous/treasonous what these separatists are doing, hence the reason the Ukrainian army is required.**

At least they weren’t throwing molotov cocktails at their heads, as were the Maidan protesters against the police who were ‘warned’ not to retaliate by Yanukovich. NO armed force should fire live or any type of ammo at people ‘shouting’ at them.
 
At least they weren’t throwing molotov cocktails at their heads, as were the Maidan protesters against the police who were ‘warned’ not to retaliate by Yanukovich. NO armed force should fire live or any type of ammo at people ‘shouting’ at them.
Again, I do not know if these soldiers were Ukrainian or not, there’s nothing in this video to verify that, however, I never said they were allowed to shoot live ammo at people, I said they could have shot the bullets with the intent to scare them off, that’s it.

And the Maidan protests were peaceful until the Berkut decided to change all that by using brutal tactics to get rid of protestors with their rubber truncheons and fists (November 30). That is what set off the REVOLUTION, i.e., to overthrow the “illegitimate” government that gave the orders to attack its own people.
 
Actually, this is Italianskaya Street in the city of Mariyuopol’. I’m concerned about the man who was shot; he was losing a lot of blood, real fast.

There’s a phrase in Russian, “Kto kogo?” Loosely translated, it means, “Who is doing what to whom?” this video doesn’t answer that question at all. We don’t know who the mob of chanting hooligans were, and we don’t know who the uniformed shooters were.
I’m on a forum with Ukrainian unionists, pro-Russian Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, westerners, etc… where they are all state their respective points of view. If it was not the way it is stated in the commentary, already posted - others on the forum would have pointed it out and stated it was lies and it would have been dismissed as propaganda.

Most of the forum members from Ukraine can distinguish between the different uniforms of the different ‘fighting’ groups on the ground, and these are definitely Ukrainian National Guards.
 
I’m on a forum with Ukrainian unionists, pro-Russian Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, westerners, etc… where they are all state their respective points of view. If it was not the way it is stated in the commentary, already posted - others on the forum would have pointed it out and stated it was lies and it would have been dismissed as propaganda.

Most of the forum members from Ukraine can distinguish between the different uniforms of the different ‘fighting’ groups on the ground, and these are definitely Ukrainian National Guards.
It’s hard to be persuaded by triple hearsay.
 
You couldn’t make it up…

investmentwatchblog.com/joe-bidens-son-appointed-director-of-ukraines-largest-gas-company/

Vice President Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, has been appointed to the board of directors of Burisma Holdings, a privately-owned natural gas company operating in the Ukraine since the year 2002. Burisma Holdings has become a considerable player within the Ukrainian natural gas and oil industry, with licences covering the Dnieper-Donets, Carpathian and Azov-Kuban basins. The production capability has reached over 10,500 barrels of oil equivalent per day (BOEPD) which has left the company with considerable reserves.

burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/

theguardian.com/world/video/2014/apr/22/joe-biden-pledges-support-ukraine-warning-russia-video
 
From Time Magazine:

Meet the Cossack ‘Wolves’ Doing Russia’s Dirty Work in Ukraine

time.com/95898/wolves-hundred-ukraine-russia-cossack/
(emphasis mine)

Nice, a heavily-armed unit of Russian citizens now in Ukraine and in the service of KGB autocrat Vladimir Putin wishes to wreak destruction and completely wipe off the map an entire country in Europe.
My challenge remains unanswered: not one video has been provided by the anti-Putin crowd showing Russian troops firing on unarmed Ukrainian citizens.

But I have cited several videos that demonstrate that Ukrainian defense forces have indeed fired on unarmed ethnic Russian Ukrainians.

Putin is not the villain in this conflict and I refuse to let Western propaganda stand in the place of truth.
 
JimG’s article goes on to say that while Putin is conquering Ukraine by infiltration and disruption, the Russia Far East is ripe for China to do a similar thing to Putin. Massive numbers of Chinese have moved into the area, which is an area always claimed by China.

Does he possibly think “moving Russia west” is the salvation of the country? Stalin, as we know, moved Poland and the Soviet Union west, so it would not be something entirely new to the KGB thinking.
Comparing Putin to Stalin is an offense against history and an offense against charity.
 
It’s all in Ukrainian or Russian (perhaps Chechen? Who knows?) The only “sort of” identifying element in the whole thing is the Cyrillic lettering on some signs. But that could be in Russia, in Chechnya, in Ukraine, in Bulgaria, anywhere Cyrillic is used. YouTube films are easily fabricated or misrepresented. But even the one you posted is not accompanied by any statement by “the people living in Ukraine”; not even by Russians living there.

And, of course, the whole world knows there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine, just as there were in Crimea before the conquest there. When, as they did there, the Russian military don’t wear any kind of identifying insignia, nobody can tell who they are for certain, but when they pursue Russian objectives, it’s not too hard to tell.
Why do you keep parroting this fiction that Putin invaded Ukraine.

You are operating under the assumption that current rulers of Ukraine are legitimate.

Putin is operating under the reality that the current rulers of Kiev were put into place by a violent, unjust, immoral Western-backed coup that replaced the democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine with a gang of Berkut-murdering thugs.

The facts are stubborn things, Ridgerunner.
 
HH Pope Francis has written a personal letter to Ukraine’s current President Turchynov stating that he is praying for peace in Ukraine and emphasized his empathy for the Ukrainian nation and the victims of the explosive conflict of the last months.

risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/ukraine_and_world/international_relations/56396/

The Pope is good friends with the current head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church and for a year and a half before becoming pope, Pope Francis, then a Cardinal, mentored Archbishop Sviatoslav of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Argentina. I guess the Pope writing a letter to Ukraine’s interim President doesn’t fit in well with the Kremlin’s propaganda that Ukraine is now ruled by a junta or immoral unjust thugs or that Turchynov is illegitimate,etc. etc.,etc. but I will choose the Pope’s support any day over the Kremlin’s. The Pope did indeed meet previously with Ukraine’s interim Prime Minister Yatseniuk at the Vatican as well.

Speaking of victims, a young 20 year old priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv) who was serving with Ukraine’s National Guard has been killed by the separatist-terrorists in Donetsk province after his unit came under fire for several hours from what the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv) has called “terrorists”.
pravoslavia.volyn.ua/novyny/novyna/?newsid=4093
 
Comparing Putin to Stalin is an offense against history and an offense against charity.
Is it an offense against charity to accuse one of an offense against charity when all one did was compare “border moving”? Clearly, Stalin did it. Clearly Putin is doing it. Why is it uncharitable to recite inescapable fact? Since it is a fact, it can hardly be an offense against history.

Well, there is, after all, that nagging business about “ethnic cleansing” in Crimea, but one cannot accuse Putin of it on anywhere near the Stalinist scale. Possibly Milosevic would be more comparable, but until someone presents the numbers, we can’t say it’s so.

Well, the last time Russia seized Crimea, it was the Tsars who seized it from the Turks and Crimean Tatars. So perhaps there are closer parallels. Possibly a historian with very strong credentials could best either of us in that endeavor.
 
Why do you keep parroting this fiction that Putin invaded Ukraine.

You are operating under the assumption that current rulers of Ukraine are legitimate.

Putin is operating under the reality that the current rulers of Kiev were put into place by a violent, unjust, immoral Western-backed coup that replaced the democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine with a gang of Berkut-murdering thugs.

The facts are stubborn things, Ridgerunner.
Subjective judgments can be just as stubborn, i.e., that the current government in Ukraine is illegitimate, unjust, violent, immoral, thugs, and all based on facts that are ambiguous at the least, totally contrary at the maximum, and all about people about whose critics are without personal knowledge.

Yanukovych was elected. He had a deal with the EU, which most Ukrainians approved. He then turned around and tried to bring Ukraine into the Russian sphere of influence. Now, one must remember Russian genocide against Ukraine, the Holodomor, and decades upon decades of people being sent to the Gulag, the suppression of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the suppression of the Greek Orthodox Church, the suppression of the Latin Catholic Church, the suppression of the Ukrainian language.

And, remembering as they did, millions turned out to protest. Yanukovych’s thugs in the Berkut shot some of the protesters. Many consider Berkut a KGB-like criminal organization and which the former president attempted with some success to suppress, and which Yanukovych expanded.

And seeing that he could not suppress the millions, Yanukovych fled to Putin. The Ukrainian parliament then selected a temporary successor until the May 25 elections. Included among those who did were some of Yanukovych’s own party.

Putin then invaded Crimea and seized it. He is now in the process of seizing two more provinces of a Ukraine his country twice promised to keep inviolate.

All the world knows all of that. Those facts are very stubborn. They have been repeated in this thread over and over again, and yet some still want to maintain that somehow Putin is not seizing Ukraine in pieces. Amazing!
 
Subjective judgments can be just as stubborn, i.e., that the current government in Ukraine is illegitimate, unjust, violent, immoral, thugs, and all based on facts that are ambiguous at the least, totally contrary at the maximum, and all about people about whose critics are without personal knowledge.

Yanukovych was elected. He had a deal with the EU, which most Ukrainians approved. He then turned around and tried to bring Ukraine into the Russian sphere of influence. Now, one must remember Russian genocide against Ukraine, the Holodomor, and decades upon decades of people being sent to the Gulag, the suppression of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the suppression of the Greek Orthodox Church, the suppression of the Latin Catholic Church, the suppression of the Ukrainian language.

And, remembering as they did, millions turned out to protest. Yanukovych’s thugs in the Berkut shot some of the protesters. Many consider Berkut a KGB-like criminal organization and which the former president attempted with some success to suppress, and which Yanukovych expanded.

And seeing that he could not suppress the millions, Yanukovych fled to Putin. The Ukrainian parliament then selected a temporary successor until the May 25 elections. Included among those who did were some of Yanukovych’s own party.

Putin then invaded Crimea and seized it. He is now in the process of seizing two more provinces of a Ukraine his country twice promised to keep inviolate.

All the world knows all of that. Those facts are very stubborn. They have been repeated in this thread over and over again, and yet some still want to maintain that somehow Putin is not seizing Ukraine in pieces. Amazing!
👍
 
Subjective judgments can be just as stubborn, i.e., that the current government in Ukraine is illegitimate, unjust, violent, immoral, thugs, and all based on facts that are ambiguous at the least, totally contrary at the maximum, and all about people about whose critics are without personal knowledge.

Yanukovych was elected. He had a deal with the EU, which most Ukrainians approved. He then turned around and tried to bring Ukraine into the Russian sphere of influence. Now, one must remember Russian genocide against Ukraine, the Holodomor, and decades upon decades of people being sent to the Gulag, the suppression of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the suppression of the Greek Orthodox Church, the suppression of the Latin Catholic Church, the suppression of the Ukrainian language.

And, remembering as they did, millions turned out to protest. Yanukovych’s thugs in the Berkut shot some of the protesters. Many consider Berkut a KGB-like criminal organization and which the former president attempted with some success to suppress, and which Yanukovych expanded.

And seeing that he could not suppress the millions, Yanukovych fled to Putin. The Ukrainian parliament then selected a temporary successor until the May 25 elections. Included among those who did were some of Yanukovych’s own party.

Putin then invaded Crimea and seized it. He is now in the process of seizing two more provinces of a Ukraine his country twice promised to keep inviolate.

All the world knows all of that. Those facts are very stubborn. They have been repeated in this thread over and over again, and yet some still want to maintain that somehow Putin is not seizing Ukraine in pieces. Amazing!
Your rewriting of recent history is almost as appalling as your comparing Putin to Stalin.
 
Separatists ambush Ukrainian troops; German foreign minister seeks talks in Kiev
DONETSK, Ukraine — Pro-Russian separatists ambushed a convoy of Ukrainian troops Tuesday in the troubled eastern part of the country, as Germany’s foreign minister sought to jump-start talks between the Ukrainian government and the separatists as part of a European bid to head off their moves to join Russia.
Pro-Russian rebels killed six Ukrainian troops and wounded eight others in an attack Tuesday afternoon about 12 miles outside the city of Kramatorsk, Ukraine’s Defense Ministry said. The ministry, in a statement on its Web site, said about 30 militants armed with automatic weapons and grenade launchers struck a convoy carrying paratroopers as it was approaching a bridge near the village of Oktyabrsk.

A grenade struck one armored personnel carrier’s engine, and rebels opened fire as Ukrainian troops worked to move the crippled vehicle off the road, the ministry said.
The attack came a day after separatists announced the birth of two new pro-Russian republics and demanded that Ukraine security forces leave their “sovereign” territory. The separatists claimed landslide victories in disputed self-rule referendums held Sunday in two eastern Ukrainian regions.
Upon his arrival in the Ukrainian capital, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier immediately met with top Ukrainian officials.
At a news conference afterward, Steinmeier said the European Union supports Ukrainian efforts to “launch a national dialogue,” disarm illegal groups and end the occupation of government buildings by separatists.
It was not immediately clear who would be sitting down at any negotiating table, however.
In earlier remarks, Steinmeier expressed hope for a quick release of hostages held by the separatists, and he stressed the importance of Ukraine’s May 25 presidential election.
Pro-Russian separatists declared two new “sovereign” republics in Ukraine’s eastern industrial heartland Monday, including the “Donetsk People’s Republic,” after asserting runaway victories in controversial, vaguely-worded referendums Sunday.
One of the regions promptly asked to join Russia. The Kremlin issued a statement
following the vote, saying the referendums should be respected and further violence avoided. Kiev called the chaotic referendums a farce, and the West declared them illegal.
Ignoring the separatists’ declaration of sovereignty, Ukrainian government forces renewed military operations Tuesday against the rebel-controlled city of Slovyansk, Russia’s Interfax news agency reported. It quoted an unidentified rebel spokesman as saying that Ukrainian forces were attacking from several directions, using mortars and other heavy weapons, in an effort to retake the city.
Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov posted on his Facebook page late Monday a photo from inside a transport plane that he said was carrying troops and new equipment to Slovyansk for use against the militants. “It’s good when the prime minister helps and involves himself — the case at hand proceeds more quickly,” he said.
Steinmeier flew to Kiev after European foreign ministers met in Brussels on Monday to try to find a negotiated solution to the worst crisis between the West and Russia since the end of the Cold War. Hungarian Foreign Minister Janos Martonyi, who attended
the meeting, told the BBC on Tuesday morning that dialogue is needed with “urgency” and that there were “some signs” Moscow was ready to talk.
Russia swiftly annexed Crimea, an autonomous Ukrainian region with a majority ethnic
Russian population, in March after a similar, hastily called referendum.
**
Separatist leaders of the Donetsk People’s Republic asked Monday to join Russia, while militants in Luhansk said they wished to unite with Donetsk to form a new republic called “Novorossiya,” or New Russia**.
Russia responded cautiously, repeating an earlier call for negotiations within Ukraine.
“We reaffirm the need for the immediate establishment of a broad discussion in Ukraine concerning its future state structure, involving all political forces and the country’s regions,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
Ukraine’s government has denounced the referendums as a “criminal farce” arranged by a “gang of Russian terrorists,” but it says it is willing to talk with regional leaders about autonomy. . . . . . .
washingtonpost.com/world/germanys-foreign-minister-in-kiev-in-bid-to-get-government-separatists-to-table/2014/05/13/420c360a-da84-11e3-bda1-9b46b2066796_story.html?algtrack=mixedrec-5&tid=btm_rex_5
 
HH Pope Francis has written a personal letter to Ukraine’s current President Turchynov stating that he is praying for peace in Ukraine and emphasized his empathy for the Ukrainian nation and the victims of the explosive conflict of the last months.

risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/ukraine_and_world/international_relations/56396/

The Pope is good friends with the current head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church and for a year and a half before becoming pope, Pope Francis, then a Cardinal, mentored Archbishop Sviatoslav of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Argentina. I guess the Pope writing a letter to Ukraine’s interim President doesn’t fit in well with the Kremlin’s propaganda that Ukraine is now ruled by a junta or immoral unjust thugs or that Turchynov is illegitimate,etc. etc.,etc. but I will choose the Pope’s support any day over the Kremlin’s. The Pope did indeed meet previously with Ukraine’s interim Prime Minister Yatseniuk at the Vatican as well.

Speaking of victims, a young 20 year old priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv) who was serving with Ukraine’s National Guard has been killed by the separatist-terrorists in Donetsk province after his unit came under fire for several hours from what the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv) has called “terrorists”.
pravoslavia.volyn.ua/novyny/novyna/?newsid=4093
The Pope is writing to the presiding leader of Ukraine, particularly so, as the violence has escalated under his rule. The massacre in Odessa, deaths in Mariupol and many others all happening under his leadership, in addition to his sending Ukrainian soldiers, militia units, tanks and helicopters into East Ukraine

Of course, the Pope will be praying for peace for all of Ukraine, and for a stop to this escalating violence.
 
**Demand for allegiance **
Once they had secured what they considered to be a popular mandate, separatists in Donetsk did not take long to reveal their true intentions.
In the rebel stronghold of Slovyansk, a Russian who portrays himself as the rebels’ military commander demanded the departure of Ukrainian security forces.
“All the soldiers and officers of the armed forces, internal security forces, the Security Service, the Interior Ministry and other paramilitary structures of Ukraine from now on are considered to be illegally within the territory of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR),” said a statement attributed to rebel military commander Igor Strelkov and distributed in pamphlets in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk. “Within 48 hours they are required to swear allegiance to the DPR or leave the country.”
E.U. documents and Ukrainian authorities identify Strelkov as a member of the Russian military intelligence agency GRU.
The authenticity of the pamphlets could not be independently verified, but separatist leaders in Donetsk also said that one of their main priorities was to fight representatives of the Kiev government. “We will propose they either shift to the people’s side, or ask them to leave our territory,” Pushilin said.
Separatist leaders in Donetsk and Luhansk were adamant that the Ukrainian presidential and mayoral elections scheduled for May 25 would not take place in their regions.
But Taruta, the Donetsk regional governor, said preparations were continuing, adding that police have been asked to provide adequate security for the process.
Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to remain part of that country.
Still, many in eastern Ukraine are deeply unhappy with the Western-leaning government in Kiev. They consider it illegal and in league with ultranationalist groups, and some worry that the large population of Russian speakers living in the east will be treated as second-class citizens. Their fears have been magnified by aggressive Russian propaganda.
 
A step in the right direction.

en.itar-tass.com/world/731491

Ukrainian parliament establishes commission to investigate mass murders in Southeast

*KIEV, May 13. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine’s unicameral parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, on Tuesday supported a draft resolution to establish a provisional special commission to investigate mass murders of civilians in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol and Krasnoarmeysk in eastern Ukraine. With 226 votes required, 263 deputies voted for the draft. Party of Regions deputy from the southern Ukrainian Odessa Region, Anton Kisse, is expected to be appointed commission head. The activity report will be heard at the Rada’s plenary session not later than June 15, 2014.

At least 48 people died and more than 200 were injured on May 2 in clashes and a fire in Odessa after radicals set ablaze the Trade Unions House, where pro-federalization activists hid, and a tent camp where activists were collecting signatures for a referendum on federalization and for the status of a state language for Russian.

In Mariupol in the Donetsk Region, Ukrainian law enforcers opened fire from armored vehicles on participants of a rally held in honor of Victory Day on May 9 who gathered near the building of the local Interior Ministry department and who were trying to prevent its storm. Nine people died and 42 were injured.

Two people were reportedly killed in Krasnoarmeysk, according to the authors of the resolution on a special investigation commission.

Meanwhile, a number of politicians have said the Kiev authorities are deliberately understating the Odessa death toll, which, the politicians say, could reach 116. Deputy Oleg Tsaryov said at least 40 people were killed in Mariupol…*
 
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