Ukraine (cont.)

[HansTrappist]

It is not important whether Kyiv Andrew supports the government of Ukraine. It is only important that the people of Ukraine do. We’ll see what they say on May 25, and hope Putin’s efforts to thwart it are not successful.

Oh, it is absolutely important whether or not Kyiv Andrew - and other voices on this thread - support the violent, undemocratic removal of the democratcially elected President of Ukraine, Yanukovych. If you do, then all your arguments against Putin and Russia fall apart

I will ask these questions again, not only to Kyiv Andrew but also to you Ridgerunner and to Josie L:

Did you support the violent coup against Mr. Yanukovych? Do you support the current rulers of Kiev, including the convicted criminal, Yulia Tymoshenko?

Your answers to these questions will put any statements you have made against Mr. Putin into the proper context.

He has already said he will not accept whatever the people of Ukraine decide then about their government, which tells everyone that he, himself, knows he is acting in opposition to the will of the people there.

Nope.

The current regime ruling Ukraine came to power via murder and theft. They murdered Berkut and then they threatened the life of the democratically-elected President, Yanukovych and his family, and then when he left they stole the reigns of power and all who opposed them were greeted with the end of a gun barrel.

The Maidan will go down as one of the most shameful moments in the history of Ukraine.

How many NATO sailors were in Sevastopol when Putin conquered it? Lets see the statistics. In the face of Obama’s reduction of the U.S. navy, it is totally incredible to believe Putin somehow feared the Black Sea becoming a “NATO lake”.

Putin didn’t wait to find out. He was seven steps ahead of the West.

As I have already pointed out to you, Russia was in Crimea long before the recent conflict broke out. They had legal rights there before the conflict broke out and once the Maidan seized Kiev, they had every right to secure their national security interests there given that at that point there was not a legitimate, peaceful regime in Kiev with which Russia was any longer bound by previous agreements.

And Putin, who does have influence in Syria, has done nothing at all to protect Christians there; something he could easily do. But instead, he sends his agents and military to oppress Christians in Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova. Putin is as far from being a “protector of Christianity” as one can get.

That’s an absolutely false statement.

 

[josie_L]

Oh, it is absolutely important whether or not Kyiv Andrew - and other voices on this thread - support the violent, undemocratic removal of the democratcially elected President of Ukraine, Yanukovych. If you do, then all your arguments against Putin and Russia fall apart.

I will ask these questions again, not only to Kyiv Andrew but also to you Ridgerunner and to Josie L:

]Did you support the violent coup against Mr. Yanukovych? Do you support the current rulers of Kiev, including the convicted criminal, Yulia Tymoshenko?

Definition of a loaded question:

A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question which contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1]

Aside from being an informal fallacy depending on usage, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner’s agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?” Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed.[2] The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious. Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious.[2] Hence the same question may be loaded in one context, but not in the other. For example the previous question would not be loaded if it was asked during a trial in which the defendant has already admitted to beating his wife.[2]

It’s like me asking you:

Oh, it is absolutely important whether or not Pepipop - and other voices on this thread - support the violent, corruptive maneuverings of a democratically elected President against his own people. If you do, then all your arguments against the Maidan protestors and EU/US fall apart.

God bless!

 

[KyivAndrew]

The new interim government with Prime Minister Yatsenyuk at its head was announced on February 26 of this year. Up until then, if one actually browses through the Ukraine threads on CAF, the leaders of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyvian Patriarchate) had squarely placed the blame for the violence on the Maidan on the shoulders of Ukraine’s then President Victor Yanukovych who had left his gilded mansions (built on money stolen from the people of Ukraine) around February 21.

On February 26, 2014, with this new government, Ukraine’s Council of Churches Expressed Support for the Legitimate Ukrainian Government:

The All-Ukrainian Council of Churches and Religious Organizations (AUCCRO), which over the past three months has consistently defended the peaceful protests against the use of force and punishment, issued a statement following a meeting with the leadership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

It the statement, the church representatives declare their readiness to work with the new government, strongly condemn any attempt to divide Ukraine, and stress the importance of preserving religious peace in the country.

The AUCCRO also called on citizens of Ukraine to “faithfully perform their official and public duties, respecting the current legislation and rejecting excessive emotion or fear of changes, which can only be for a better future,” reads the AUCCRO statement, the Institute for Religious Freedom reports.

risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55507

This Council consists of the leaders of Ukraine’s Orthodox Churches, Catholic Churches, Protestant Churches, leaders of the Jewish faith in Ukraine, and Ukraine’s Muslims.

The full text of the Council’s official declaration of support for the new government’s legitimacy can be found in Ukrainian here:
risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55507

On April 4 of this year the Ukraine’s Council of Churches reiterated what it had already declared above, namely:

Council of Churches Condemns Separatism and Advocates for Integrity and Inviolability of Ukraine’s Borders
The All-Ukrainian Council of Churches and Religious Organizations (AUCCRO) has condemned manifestations of separatism and advocates for Ukraine’s integrity within its internationally recognized borders.

This is stated in a communiqué adopted at a meeting of the AUCCRO on April 3, 2014, at the St. Sophia of Kyiv National Reserve, chaired by Metropolitan Onufry, locum tenens of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate), the Institute for Religious Freedom reports.

risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/auccro/55984/

On Saturday 26 April 2014 Pope Francis received Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who was subsequently received by Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin. At an exchange of gifts, Yatsenyuk presented Francis with a photograph of Maidan square in Kyiv on New Year’s night. “This is where Ukrainians fought for their freedom and rights. Millions of people,” he said.
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/vatikan/56207/

The countries of the EU, Canada, the USA, among others have recognized Ukraine’s interim government.

On May 6 of this year, The Synod of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church published a letter, urging Ukrainians to “actively support” Ukraine’s upcoming Presidential Elections.
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/religion_and_policy/56304/

Cardinal Lubomyr Huzar of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has strongly urged all Ukrainians to participate in the upcoming Presidential Elections in Ukraine.
risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/56413/

Anyone who wishes well for the the citizens of Ukraine should join with Ukraine’s Church leaders in wishing for a successful and peaceful Presidential election this month.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I know this is a few years ago but in reading some of the comments that some Catholic posters here have made praising Putin, I thought I would put this out as something to counteract that.

Praising Stalin is like praising Hitler.

theaustralian.com.au/news/world/vladimir-putin-praises-joseph-stalin-for-winning-ww2-making-a-superpower/story-e6frg6so-1225806886630

huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/04/vladimir-putin-praises-st_n_380192.html

google.ca/search?q=Vladimir+Putin+praises+Stalin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=ldo8Urm5CsO32wWb5YG4BQ

crisismagazine.com/2011/putin-and-stalin-revising-reality

ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-still-my-enemy

Thanks for the links, and I agree with you on Putin. He is unrepentant about the KGB as an organization. The Lubyanka still stands proudly in Moscow and Yuri Andropov and Lenin are venerated by Putin. How a self-professed Christian can deeply respect a cold-blooded killer and persecutor of Christians like atheist KGB Head Yuri Andropov is beyond me. Putin has statues put up to Andropov in modern Russia and scholarships given in Andropov’s name. Andropov sent Christians into the Gulag or into psychiatric asylums to cure them, yet he has Putin’s deep respect. Heck, Putin upon coming to power put up a plaque to Andropov personally in the Lubyanka. Andropov was and remains Putin’s hero, as well as of his inner KGB circle like Nikolai Patrushev who wrote glowing articles about Andropov in 2004.

According to Cambridge historian Jonathan Haslam, hundreds of thousands were victims of Andropov’s psychiatric repressions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Andropov

historyofmentalhealth.com/2014/04/29/yuri-andropov/

p.s. I still sometimes like browsing through the archives of Crisis Magazine - a great Catholic magazine.

 

[Tomdstone]

That’s the problem with relying on RT in links, as you have with this quote. It’s a doctored tape and Tymoshenko revealed which parts in the tape were not hers including this ridiculous one on nukes. The Russian secret service would never lie of course, especially about phone calls they have intercepted on people they consider enemies. The tape is not in English obviously; do you understand and speak Russian and/or Ukrainian?

Tomdstone, have you ever actually listened to Yulia Tymoshenko speaking in Ukrainian or watched her speaking on Ukrainian television (WITHOUT English subtitles) and understood what she is saying?

She is not speaking Ukrainian here, is she?
Я думаю, что они они говорят
по-русски. Это кажется российским мне и не украинское. И если лента ложная, почему она приносила извинения за использование сквернословия?

 

[HansTrappist]

But was this (if it was even said. It was a Russian-intercepted phone call, supposedly) understood as meaning Russian speaking Ukrainians who are nevertheless ethnic Ukrainians? Was it understood as meaning ethnic Russian Ukrainians who are Russian speakers? Or was it understood as meaning Russian invaders from Russia?

No matter what, the Ukrainian people did not vote to give Crimea to Russia. Russia just took it. Nor did the Ukrainian people vote to give eastern Ukraine to Russia. Putin is just taking it.

Regardless, Yulia Tymoshenko, unjustly jailed by Yanukovych for three years, is yesterday’s news even in Ukraine. She wasn’t there when the protests started, and her popularity has waned. Still, after spending three years in jail by Putin’s man Yanukovych, one can understand her being less than sanguine about it.

Yulia Tymoshenko is a convicted criminal.

 

[HansTrappist]

That’s the problem with relying on RT in links, as you have with this quote. It’s a doctored tape and Tymoshenko revealed which parts in the tape were not hers including this ridiculous one on nukes. The Russian secret service would never lie of course, especially about phone calls they have intercepted on people they consider enemies. The tape is not in English obviously; do you understand and speak Russian and/or Ukrainian?

Tomdstone, have you ever actually listened to Yulia Tymoshenko speaking in Ukrainian or watched her speaking on Ukrainian television (WITHOUT English subtitles) and understood what she is saying?

Actually, the original RT story mentioned that parts of this tape were edited. But Tymoshenko never denied the bulk of this conversation. From the original RT report:

Ukrainians must take up arms against Russians so that not even scorched earth will be left where Russia stands; an example of former Ukrainian PM Yulia Tymoshenko’s vitriol in phone call leaked onlineTymoshenko confirmed the authenticity of the conversation on Twitter, while claiming that a section where she is heard to call for the nuclear slaughter of the eight million Russians who remain on Ukrainian territory was edited.

She tweeted* “The conversation took place, but the ‘8 million Russians in Ukraine’ piece is an edit. In fact, I said Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians. Hello FSB Sorry for the obscene language.”*

The leaked phone call took placed on March 18, hours after the Crimea & Sevastopol accession treaty was signed in the Kremlin.

While Shufrych was* “just shocked,”* Tymoshenko was enraged by the results of the Crimean referendum .

“This is really beyond all boundaries. It’s about time we grab our guns and kill go kill those damn Russians together with their leader,” Tymoshenko said.

.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Oh, it is absolutely important whether or not Kyiv Andrew - and other voices on this thread - support the violent, undemocratic removal of the democratcially elected President of Ukraine, Yanukovych. If you do, then all your arguments against Putin and Russia fall apart

Elections do not determine kingships, but political offices that can be forfeited. Yanukovych tried to bring Ukraine within the Russian orbit against the will of most of the people. They protested. He called out thugs to harm them, and did. That led to further violence. He then ran to his master, Putin. What were Ukrainians supposed to do, have no executive at all? A temporary successor was legally selected by the Ukrainian parliament pending new elections.

I will ask these questions again, not only to Kyiv Andrew but also to you Ridgerunner and to Josie L:

Did you support the violent coup against Mr. Yanukovych? Do you support the current rulers of Kiev, including the convicted criminal, Yulia Tymoshenko? This is one of those “have you stopped beating your wife” questions that can’t be answered as demanded. I am not particularly impressed with Tymoshenko who, in any event, is yesterday’s news in Ukraine. But there is a significant body of opinion that she was railroaded by Yanukovych. You know that.

As I have already pointed out to you, Russia was in Crimea long before the recent conflict broke out. They had legal rights there before the conflict broke out and once the Maidan seized Kiev, they had every right to secure their national security interests there given that at that point there was not a legitimate, peaceful regime in Kiev with which Russia was any longer bound by previous agreements.

Russia had a right to lease the port of Sebastopol. It did not have a right to seize all of Crimea and incorporate it into Russia, which Russia did. The government in Kiev is certainly the legitimately elected parliament of Ukraine, and it had every right to elect a new executive when Yanukovych overplayed his hand and then ran to his overlord in Russia.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Actually, the original RT story mentioned that parts of this tape were edited. But Tymoshenko never denied the bulk of this conversation. From the original RT report:

Ukrainians must take up arms against Russians so that not even scorched earth will be left where Russia stands; an example of former Ukrainian PM Yulia Tymoshenko’s vitriol in phone call leaked onlineTymoshenko confirmed the authenticity of the conversation on Twitter, while claiming that a section where she is heard to call for the nuclear slaughter of the eight million Russians who remain on Ukrainian territory was edited.

She tweeted* “The conversation took place, but the ‘8 million Russians in Ukraine’ piece is an edit. In fact, I said Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians. Hello FSB Sorry for the obscene language.”*

The leaked phone call took placed on March 18, hours after the Crimea & Sevastopol accession treaty was signed in the Kremlin.

While Shufrych was* “just shocked,”* Tymoshenko was enraged by the results of the Crimean referendum .

“This is really beyond all boundaries. It’s about time we grab our guns and kill go kill those damn Russians together with their leader,” Tymoshenko said.

.

If the tape is known to be doctored, it could be doctored in a number of ways. So it has no probative value at all.

But even if it did, a lot of people would react as Tymoshenko is said to have done. Somebody conquers part of your country, you might well want to fight them.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yulia Tymoshenko is a convicted criminal.

In a Yanukovych kangaroo court, it is maintained by some. Nelson Mandela was also a convicted criminal, so that has no meaning in itself.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I see where the Russian agents in Donetsk and Luhansk provinces have “resolved” to become part of Russia. So that’s a fait accompli, because Putin will use that in order to fully occupy them with Russian troops. The big question now is how much more of Ukraine he will conquer.

As he proceeds west, the population includes fewer and fewer ethnic Russians. He has already seized the “Russian majority” provinces. From now on, he will be seizing “Ukrainian majority” provinces until he gets to the very southeast part of Ukraine where there are a lot of Moldovans and Romanians as well as Rusyns.

As Putin has already announced he will not accept the May 25 election results, he is going to keep up the outrageous lie about his having a right to seize the lands of any state whose government he considers “illegitimate”. Basically, he can declare any country’s government to be “illegitimate” and then claim the right to conquer it. And he’ll do just that until he believes he has reached the limit of what he dares to do and is materially able to do.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Of interest, it appears Yulia Tymoshenko was jailed in 2011 upon being convicted of making a gas deal with Russia that was deemed to Ukraine’s disadvantage.

If she belonged in jail for making bad deals for Ukraine, (and I’m not saying she did) so does Yanukovych. And Yanukovych and his son are involved not only in a bad trade deal with Russia, but in aiding Russia’s seizure of huge parts of Ukraine. His son, of course, is one of the leaders of the “join Russia” agents in eastern Ukraine.

I guess Putin would claim (if he was there then) that Benedict Arnold, not George Washington, was the “rightful” president of the U.S. so he could grab off a few American states.

If Tymoshenko belongs in jail, Yanukovych and his son belong in a dungeon under the jail.

 

[HansTrappist]

Russia had a right to lease the port of Sebastopol. It did not have a right to seize all of Crimea and incorporate it into Russia, which Russia did. The government in Kiev is certainly the legitimately elected parliament of Ukraine, and it had every right to elect a new executive when Yanukovych overplayed his hand and then ran to his overlord in Russia.

Russia secured her national security interests in Crimea when it became clear that Law and Order had been violently overthrown in Kiev.

Crimea then held a referendum to cut all ties with the violent gang in Kiev.

Putin did not “seize” Crimea. He secured his interests there. The West forced his hand.

 

[HansTrappist]

Of interest, it appears Yulia Tymoshenko was jailed in 2011 upon being convicted of making a gas deal with Russia that was deemed to Ukraine’s disadvantage.

If she belonged in jail for making bad deals for Ukraine, (and I’m not saying she did) so does Yanukovych. And Yanukovych and his son are involved not only in a bad trade deal with Russia, but in aiding Russia’s seizure of huge parts of Ukraine. His son, of course, is one of the leaders of the “join Russia” agents in eastern Ukraine.

I guess Putin would claim (if he was there then) that Benedict Arnold, not George Washington, was the “rightful” president of the U.S. so he could grab off a few American states.

If Tymoshenko belongs in jail, Yanukovych and his son belong in a dungeon under the jail.

Whether or not Yanukovych belongs in jail is a matter for the courts.

Tymoshenko was convicted in a court of law (not a kangaroo court as her defenders cry) on the evidence. That’s a fact.

 

[HansTrappist]

If the tape is known to be doctored, it could be doctored in a number of ways. So it has no probative value at all.

But even if it did, a lot of people would react as Tymoshenko is said to have done. Somebody conquers part of your country, you might well want to fight them.

Tymoshenko herself admitted that this tape was legit. She only disputed the “8 million” remark and never disavowed the rest of her murderous comments.

 

[josie_L]

Russia secured her national security interests in Crimea when it became clear that Law and Order had been violently overthrown in Kiev.

Crimea then held a referendum to cut all ties with the violent gang in Kiev.

Putin did not “seize” Crimea. He secured his interests there. The West forced his hand.

The current government is not a violent gang, i.e., there was no violence committed against Crimea by said government, in fact, Crimea was taken over by hostile/violent Russians/pro-Russian ethnic Ukrainians, and still the so-called “violent gang in Kyiv” didn’t do anything. And Putin annexed Crimea for imperialistic reasons, moreover, the referendum was executed under Russian occupation and as such could never be legitimatized by any governments with a sense of justice.

 

[HansTrappist]

The current government is not a violent gang, i.e., there was no violence committed against Crimea by said government, in fact, Crimea was taken over by hostile/violent Russians/pro-Russian ethnic Ukrainians, and still the so-called “violent gang in Kyiv” didn’t do anything. And Putin annexed Crimea for imperialistic reasons, moreover, the referendum was executed under Russian occupation and as such could never be legitimatized by any governments with a sense of justice.

The current authorities in Kiev are indeed a violent gang, having overthrown the democratically elected ruler of Ukraine, Yanukovych, and now engaged in a violent military action against the civilian populations of South and Eastern Ukraone.

Putin secured Crimea for national security reasons without ever using violence against Ukrainian civilians, and the Ukrainians in Crimea, having seen the violent takeover of Kiev by the Maidan, voted to join Russia rather than serve Kiev.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Russia secured her national security interests in Crimea when it became clear that Law and Order had been violently overthrown in Kiev.

Crimea then held a referendum to cut all ties with the violent gang in Kiev.

Putin did not “seize” Crimea. He secured his interests there. The West forced his hand.

We have heard this over and over again by defenders of Putin’s conquest. Does any reasonable person actually believe that even if Putin had fears about “law and order” in Crimea (the only violence was by the Russians, and not much even of that) his proper remedy was to seize Crimea and make it part of Russia? Even Saddam Hussein had a better excuse than that.

Putin had 40,000 soldiers on the Ukrainian border as well as Spetznaz, sailors and marines in Crimea and he somehow believed “law and order” in then-peaceful Crimea couldn’t be preserved because of protests against Yanukovych in Kiev?

Preposterous. One has to want to believe that in order to believe it, as it is utterly unworthy of belief otherwise.

The real question is why anyone would want to believe the obviously false narrative of a man whose life training (KGB) was in giving false narratives. But then, it was only a few decades ago that students shouted “Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh” on college campuses and called American soldiers “baby killers”. Perhaps that kind of thing will always be around in a free society. Not as much now as back then, though, which is good.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Tymoshenko herself admitted that this tape was legit. She only disputed the “8 million” remark and never disavowed the rest of her murderous comments.

How do you know she didn’t? Maybe she has declared 100 times that the tape is faked. Prove she didn’t say it’s faked. Asking you to prove a negative? Well the Putin supporters are very much fond of doing that, so sauce for the gander.

As soon as the Putin supporters produce the tapes of Putin telling his elites what he’s going to do to Ukraine, we can make the comparisons necessary to determining who’s truly murderous. Sometimes people get like that when their countries are invaded and aggressors annex portions of it and threaten the whole. American posters exhorting people to “Kill more Japs” abounded during WWII, and things a great deal more vehement than that.

But one thing’s for sure. Tymoshenko has not actually killed people like Putin has. He gets more blood on his hands every day, it appears, in his imperialistic enterprise.

And of course, and as you know, Tymoshenko is not a central figure in Ukrainian politics anymore. Western sources are pretty unanimously agreed about that.

Not that I particularly favor Tymoshenko. She’s a socialist and I would not support her if I were a Ukrainian. But making her the central bete noir in the Russian conquest of Ukraine is simply putting up a straw figure to shoot at.

 

[Seamus_L]

It’s more a case of her attitude being symbolic of the extreme anti-Russian sentiment of the Euromaidan.