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josie_L
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Seamus_L
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Pro-Russian forces took control of yet another town on Monday naharnet.com/stories/en/128343-rebels-take-another-e-ukraine-town-attack-oligarch-bank-as-osce-says-kiev-must-ensure-monitors-security
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Ridgerunner
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Russian revanchism proceeds as predicted.Pro-Russian forces took control of yet another town on Monday naharnet.com/stories/en/128343-rebels-take-another-e-ukraine-town-attack-oligarch-bank-as-osce-says-kiev-must-ensure-monitors-security
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Seamus_L
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And the Euromaidan certainly created the impetus to make this all possible. Even in 2004 this was unthinkable,
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josie_L
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Oh, those bad bad Euromaidan protestors wanting democracy, fie on them, they must pay homage to Putin and his lackeys!!And the Euromaidan certainly created the impetus to make this all possible. Even in 2004 this was unthinkable,
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Nonsense.And the Euromaidan certainly created the impetus to make this all possible. Even in 2004 this was unthinkable,
Have those who opposed Russia’s agent Yanukovych marched in and taken over any other country? Have they seized city halls and police stations in Russia? Do they have 40 or 50,000 well-armed troops on Russia’s border?
This is actually not at all complicated. A million or more people protested Yanuk’s thievery and attempt to move Ukraine into Russia’s orbit. In order to be motivated to do that, all they had to do was look at European prosperity and freedom and compare with Russian poverty and despotism. Easy choice to make.
Yanuko’s thugs shot a few protesters, then he ran off to Putin’s protection. Putin conquered Crimea and will now conquer eastern and southern Ukraine. The only way in which Russia’s conquest was influenced by the Maidan protests is that “Plan A” failed, so Putin went to “Plan B” to acquire Ukraine. If “Plan B” (internal subversion) doesn’t work, he’ll go to “Plan C”, outright military conquest by Russian troops that admit to being Russian troops.
As Russian aggression becomes more and more obvious, it’s time people stopped blaming the victim.
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DaveBj
Guest
I can’t come up with any better analysis than this ^^^. Well put.Nonsense.
Have those who opposed Russia’s agent Yanukovych marched in and taken over any other country? Have they seized city halls and police stations in Russia? Do they have 40 or 50,000 well-armed troops on Russia’s border?
This is actually not at all complicated. A million or more people protested Yanuk’s thievery and attempt to move Ukraine into Russia’s orbit. In order to be motivated to do that, all they had to do was look at European prosperity and freedom and compare with Russian poverty and despotism. Easy choice to make.
Yanuko’s thugs shot a few protesters, then he ran off to Putin’s protection. Putin conquered Crimea and will now conquer eastern and southern Ukraine. The only way in which Russia’s conquest was influenced by the Maidan protests is that “Plan A” failed, so Putin went to “Plan B” to acquire Ukraine. If “Plan B” (internal subversion) doesn’t work, he’ll go to “Plan C”, outright military conquest by Russian troops that admit to being Russian troops.
As Russian aggression becomes more and more obvious, it’s time people stopped blaming the victim.
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Cricket2
Guest
Russia is dangerous, and if anyone thinks otherwise they should do some “re-thinking.”
With all these threats of war, take-over, invasions and violence I often think that only God can put an end to it. It seems that all the negotiating, politicking and prattle accomplish nothing. The last thing I want to see is more US troops going anywhere in the world over all the stuff.
I really do pray that God intercedes in all of this. He is the only one that will be fair and just.
With all these threats of war, take-over, invasions and violence I often think that only God can put an end to it. It seems that all the negotiating, politicking and prattle accomplish nothing. The last thing I want to see is more US troops going anywhere in the world over all the stuff.
I really do pray that God intercedes in all of this. He is the only one that will be fair and just.
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tawny
Guest
Praying for the people of Ukraine.
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pepipop
Guest
That’s the way the cookie crumbles. One side protests and gets what they want by overthrowing the democratically elected government, then the other side feel unjustly treated and protest to get what they want.And the Euromaidan certainly created the impetus to make this all possible. Even in 2004 this was unthinkable,
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Tomdstone
Guest
True. This is why it would have been better not to have had an illegal coup d’état and to have thought about the consequences of this illegal coup d’état such as the resulting deaths of innocent people, the harm done to families of the deceased, to the chaotic conditions we now see.That’s the way the cookie crumbles. One side protests and gets what they want by overthrowing the democratically elected government, then the other side feel unjustly treated and protest to get what they want.
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josie_L
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A democratically elected government that lost its democratic principles along the way, hence the protest.That’s the way the cookie crumbles. One side protests and gets what they want by overthrowing the democratically elected government, then the other side feel unjustly treated and protest to get what they want.
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Ridgerunner
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Hardly a coup d’etat and hardly illegal.True. This is why it would have been better not to have had an illegal coup d’état and to have thought about the consequences of this illegal coup d’état such as the resulting deaths of innocent people, the harm done to families of the deceased, to the chaotic conditions we now see.
Yanuovych, a thoroughly corrupt man and a cats-paw for Putin tried to take the country in an economic union with impoverished, despotic Russia and away from prosperous, democratic Europe. Millions protested that. Tukovych’s bully boys shot some of them, which angered the protesters more. Then he ran into Putin’s protection because he couldn’t shoot them all.
And so, Putin then seized Crimea, driving out the Ukrainians and Tatars in an ethnic cleansing similar to that of Milosevic.
So what, then, was the government of Ukraine supposed to do? Wait until Yanko came back, if ever? Wait for Putin to say “there’s no government in Ukraine, I’ll have to take over”. The parliament selected an interim successor and selected May 25 as an election day for his replacement.
Putin won’t allow that election in advance of his conquering more of Ukraine. His seizure of more of Ukraine (which the majority of residents oppose) will happen before then. And he’ll kill not a few innocent Ukrainians in the process. But what’s the problem? After all, STalin killed millions of them, and Stalin is revered in Putin’s Russia.
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josie_L
Guest
As opposed to the illegal/autocratic machinations of Yanukovych to rest power from the people, to steal from the people, to subjugate the people, to silence the people, to kill the people i.e., he should have been deposed for his illegal activities along time ago!!True. This is why it would have been better not to have had an illegal coup d’état and to have thought about the consequences of this illegal coup d’état such as the resulting deaths of innocent people, the harm done to families of the deceased, to the chaotic conditions we now see.
P.S. Chaotic conditions that the Russians are producing through their ILLEGAL invasion of the Ukraine and disinformation and/or propaganda.
Blame Yanukovych and his puppet master Putin for the troubles we are witnessing in the Ukraine.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
As Kyiv Andrew has pointed out, few people even in Eastern ukraine want the chaos Putin’s troops and fellow-travelers are imposing there. Putin wants it, and that’s why he has his troops and agents there taking over government buildings, kidnapping and shooting Ukrainian officials, even kidnapping foreign observers.As opposed to the illegal/autocratic machinations of Yanukovych to rest power from the people, to steal from the people, to subjugate the people, to silence the people, to kill the people i.e., he should have been deposed for his illegal activities along time ago!!
P.S. Chaotic conditions that the Russians are producing through their ILLEGAL invasion of the Ukraine and disinformation and/or propaganda.
Blame Yanukovych and his puppet master Putin for the troubles we are witnessing in the Ukraine.
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josie_L
Guest
I don’t think they are able to admit they were wrong about Russia.Hardly a coup d’etat and hardly illegal.
Yanuovych, a thoroughly corrupt man and a cats-paw for Putin tried to take the country in an economic union with impoverished, despotic Russia and away from prosperous, democratic Europe. Millions protested that. Tukovych’s bully boys shot some of them, which angered the protesters more. Then he ran into Putin’s protection because he couldn’t shoot them all.
And so, Putin then seized Crimea, driving out the Ukrainians and Tatars in an ethnic cleansing similar to that of Milosevic.
So what, then, was the government of Ukraine supposed to do? Wait until Yanko came back, if ever? Wait for Putin to say “there’s no government in Ukraine, I’ll have to take over”. The parliament selected an interim successor and selected May 25 as an election day for his replacement.
Putin won’t allow that election in advance of his conquering more of Ukraine. His seizure of more of Ukraine (which the majority of residents oppose) will happen before then. And he’ll kill not a few innocent Ukrainians in the process. But what’s the problem? After all, STalin killed millions of them, and Stalin is revered in Putin’s Russia.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Putin bamboozled a lot of people in the west with his protestations about being the “guardian of Christianity”. Lots of people believed it. They shouldn’t have. After all, Putin has a lot of influence in Syria. He and Iran are keeping the world at bay, preventing a cessation of the war there. How many Christians has he saved? Where is the Russian fleet hauling Syrians to safety? They’re keeping Ukrainian vessels out of Crimea. Where are his spetsnaz troops guarding Christian villages? Well, they’re shooting Ukrainian mayors in the back. Can’t be bothered with saving Syrian Christians.I don’t think they are able to admit they were wrong about Russia.
But some believed in him. And some others, one painfully realizes, want the simplicity of despotism. Russians have historically been subject to that temptation; preference for the iron hand of the “strong man” over the uncertainties and ambivalences of their own freedom. A very heavy price to pay for certitude, but many, many, many are willing to pay it, or at least have others pay it.
That’s why Putin has photos of himself on horseback without a shirt on, or pulling in an improbably large fish or doing a judo exhibition or whatever. It’s the image of the “strong man”. One is reminded of Mussolini with his bogus “Roman soldier” poses and his entirely false declaration to the king that “your majesty must forgive my appearance. I come from a battlefield”.
One is reminded of the incessant excuses people in the prisons and gulags made for their tormenter “Stalin doesn’t know. Stalin will read my letter and straighten this out.” And when God ordered Stalin to depart from his ribcage, many people wept inconsolably. Even out in exile they did after a lifetime of being dragged through hell by the monster.
The strong man. The “Man on Horseback”. How many times have human beings fallen for that? Innumerable times.
And one pities the Ukrainians, and ought to. They felt the serpent’s coils tightening around them and, being Ukrainians; the grandchildren and great grandchildren of those who were starved and beaten and sent to the far north to dig gold flecks out of iron-hard frozen soil with crowbars, resist. They resist in such numbers and with such resolve that the Quisling ruler flees to his master who then realizes that he must quell geographically too proximate freedom with 'blood and iron". And so Putin will.
But for some of us, even in the west, freedom is intolerably untidy, and Slavic freedom, well, can be considerably less tidy than, say, German freedom or that of an Englishman who insists on his eccentricities or the American who insists on his unfashionable body mass index and his guns. And so, some want to see it quelled by the “strong man” who wrestles tigers and stops the untidiness. Some would prefer a more urbane “strong man”, but prefer one just the same.
And it’s true, many in the west would prefer the certitudes of despotism to the chaotic uncertainties of human freedom. More’s the pity.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Putin bamboozled a lot of people in the west with his protestations about being the “guardian of Christianity”. Lots of people believed it. They shouldn’t have. After all, Putin has a lot of influence in Syria. He and Iran are keeping the world at bay, preventing a cessation of the war there. How many Christians has he saved? Where is the Russian fleet hauling Syrians to safety? They’re keeping Ukrainian vessels out of Crimea. Where are his spetsnaz troops guarding Christian villages? Well, they’re shooting Ukrainian mayors in the back. Can’t be bothered with saving Syrian Christians.
But some believed in him. And some others, one painfully realizes, want the simplicity of despotism. Russians have historically been subject to that temptation; preference for the iron hand of the “strong man” over the uncertainties and ambivalences of their own freedom. A very heavy price to pay for certitude, but many, many, many are willing to pay it, or at least have others pay it.
That’s why Putin has photos of himself on horseback without a shirt on, or pulling in an improbably large fish or doing a judo exhibition or whatever. It’s the image of the “strong man”. One is reminded of Mussolini with his bogus “Roman soldier” poses and his entirely false declaration to the king that “your majesty must forgive my appearance. I come from a battlefield”.
One is reminded of the incessant excuses people in the prisons and gulags made for their tormenter “Stalin doesn’t know. Stalin will read my letter and straighten this out.” And when God ordered Stalin to depart from his ribcage, many people wept inconsolably. Even out in exile they did after a lifetime of being dragged through hell by the monster.
The strong man. The “Man on Horseback”. How many times have human beings fallen for that? Innumerable times.
And one pities the Ukrainians, and ought to. They felt the serpent’s coils tightening around them and, being Ukrainians; the grandchildren and great grandchildren of those who were starved and beaten and sent to the far north to dig gold flecks out of iron-hard frozen soil with crowbars, resist. They resist in such numbers and with such resolve that the Quisling ruler flees to his master who then realizes that he must quell geographically too proximate freedom with 'blood and iron". And so Putin will.
But for some of us, even in the west, freedom is intolerably untidy, and Slavic freedom, well, can be considerably less tidy than, say, German freedom or that of an Englishman who insists on his eccentricities or the American who insists on his unfashionable body mass index, his bible, and his guns. And so, some want to see it quelled by the “strong man” who wrestles tigers and stops the untidiness. Some would prefer a more urbane “strong man”, but prefer one just the same.
And it’s true, many in the west would prefer the certitudes of despotism to the chaotic uncertainties of human freedom. More’s the pity.
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Tomdstone
Guest
I am not so sure that it is a bamboozle. For example, take a look at Putin and Yelena Mizulina. They have worked to reduce and restrict abortions in Russia. But the Americans have punished Yelena Mizulina and placed her under sanctions. On the other hand, the American government has required contraceptive coverage under Obama’s health care plan even though artificial contraception is a mortal sin. Further, America has been a leader in legalizing same sex marriage.Putin bamboozled a lot of people in the west with his protestations about being the “guardian of Christianity”. Lots of people believed it.
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DaveBj
Guest
There are two different issues going on here.I am not so sure that it is a bamboozle. For example, take a look at Putin and Yelena Mizulina. They have worked to reduce and restrict abortions in Russia. But the Americans have punished Yelena Mizulina and placed her under sanctions. On the other hand, the American government has required contraceptive coverage under Obama’s health care plan even though artificial contraception is a mortal sin. Further, America has been a leader in legalizing same sex marriage.
One has to do with certain questions of practical morals, and in those, Putin at least gives the appearance of being on the “right” side, while those currently in power at various levels of government in the U.S. give the appearance of being on the “wrong” side (although the latter would argue the point).
The other issue has to do with questions of international relations, specifically, Putin’s actions in the light of international law. On these questions, Putin is clearly in the wrong, and flagrantly so.
These two issues must not be confused. A person can be against (or, maybe more accurately, give the appearance of being against) abortion, contraception, and same-sex marriage, and still be, for example, a rapist and a murderer. It would appear that Putin falls into this category. His actions show that he is trying to murder Ukraine as an independent state and murder its economy by slicing off the industrial east.
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