Ukraine (cont.)

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This is just the beginning of something that is going to be much larger.
 
DaveBj said:
There are two different issues going on here.

One has to do with certain questions of practical morals, and in those, Putin at least gives the appearance of being on the “right” side, while those currently in power at various levels of government in the U.S. give the appearance of being on the “wrong” side (although the latter would argue the point).

The other issue has to do with questions of international relations, specifically, Putin’s actions in the light of international law. On these questions, Putin is clearly in the wrong, and flagrantly so.

These two issues must not be confused. A person can be against (or, maybe more accurately, give the appearance of being against) abortion, contraception, and same-sex marriage, and still be, for example, a rapist and a murderer. It would appear that Putin falls into this category. His actions show that he is trying to murder Ukraine as an independent state and murder its economy by slicing off the industrial east.
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Can you or anyone else kindly explain why the Americans want to punish Yelena Mizulina with sanctions? AFAIK, she had nothing to do with Crimea. Her work in Russia has been to restrict abortion rights and to protect children from homosexual propaganda. Putin is not perfect of course, but unlike some politicians in the USA, he has given a lot of assistance to rebuilding the Russian Orthodox church and encouraging its growth.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Putin bamboozled a lot of people in the west with his protestations about being the “guardian of Christianity”. Lots of people believed it. They shouldn’t have. After all, Putin has a lot of influence in Syria. He and Iran are keeping the world at bay, preventing a cessation of the war there. How many Christians has he saved? Where is the Russian fleet hauling Syrians to safety? They’re keeping Ukrainian vessels out of Crimea. Where are his spetsnaz troops guarding Christian villages? Well, they’re shooting Ukrainian mayors in the back. Can’t be bothered with saving Syrian Christians.

But some believed in him. And some others, one painfully realizes, want the simplicity of despotism. Russians have historically been subject to that temptation; preference for the iron hand of the “strong man” over the uncertainties and ambivalences of their own freedom. A very heavy price to pay for certitude, but many, many, many are willing to pay it, or at least have others pay it.

That’s why Putin has photos of himself on horseback without a shirt on, or pulling in an improbably large fish or doing a judo exhibition or whatever. It’s the image of the “strong man”. One is reminded of Mussolini with his bogus “Roman soldier” poses and his entirely false declaration to the king that “your majesty must forgive my appearance. I come from a battlefield”.

One is reminded of the incessant excuses people in the prisons and gulags made for their tormenter “Stalin doesn’t know. Stalin will read my letter and straighten this out.” And when God ordered Stalin to depart from his ribcage, many people wept inconsolably. Even out in exile they did after a lifetime of being dragged through hell by the monster.

The strong man. The “Man on Horseback”. How many times have human beings fallen for that? Innumerable times.

And one pities the Ukrainians, and ought to. They felt the serpent’s coils tightening around them and, being Ukrainians; the grandchildren and great grandchildren of those who were starved and beaten and sent to the far north to dig gold flecks out of iron-hard frozen soil with crowbars, resist. They resist in such numbers and with such resolve that the Quisling ruler flees to his master who then realizes that he must quell geographically too proximate freedom with 'blood and iron". And so Putin will.

But for some of us, even in the west, freedom is intolerably untidy, and Slavic freedom, well, can be considerably less tidy than, say, German freedom or that of an Englishman who insists on his eccentricities or the American who insists on his unfashionable body mass index and his guns. And so, some want to see it quelled by the “strong man” who wrestles tigers and stops the untidiness. Some would prefer a more urbane “strong man”, but prefer one just the same.

And it’s true, many in the west would prefer the certitudes of despotism to the chaotic uncertainties of human freedom. More’s the pity.
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A little ironic though for Christians to seek the certitude of despotism when we know that God endowed us with free will and inalienable rights, i.e., such a form of government should be anathema to those who believe in Christ.
 
Tomdstone said:
Can you or anyone else kindly explain why the Americans want to punish Yelena Mizulina with sanctions? AFAIK, she had nothing to do with Crimea. Her work in Russia has been to restrict abortion rights and to protect children from homosexual propaganda. Putin is not perfect of course, but unlike some politicians in the USA, he has given a lot of assistance to rebuilding the Russian Orthodox church and encouraging its growth.
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You completely overlooked his whole post.
 
Tomdstone said:
Can you or anyone else kindly explain why the Americans want to punish Yelena Mizulina with sanctions? AFAIK, she had nothing to do with Crimea. Her work in Russia has been to restrict abortion rights and to protect children from homosexual propaganda. Putin is not perfect of course, but unlike some politicians in the USA, he has given a lot of assistance to rebuilding the Russian Orthodox church and encouraging its growth.
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Until this thread I had never heard of her. Someone with more knowledge than I will have to explain that. Whatever the details of that case, it doesn’t change the fact that when it comes to international relations with his near neighbors, Putin it trying his best to play the part of a lawless hooligan.
 
DaveBj said:
Until this thread I had never heard of her. Someone with more knowledge than I will have to explain that. Whatever the details of that case, it doesn’t change the fact that when it comes to international relations with his near neighbors, Putin it trying his best to play the part of a lawless hooligan.
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Okay, I did some research. A White House “Fact Sheet” dated 17 March ( whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/17/fact-sheet-ukraine-related-sanctions ) says that she was sanctioned “for her status as a State Duma Deputy,” but does not say what that status has to do the Russian actions in Ukraine. Analysis of White House actions points to the possibility that the sanctions are the result of influence from the U.S. LGBT lobby, because of her anti-LGBT actions in the Duma, specifically, the “Magnitsky Act,” which bans the giving of pro-homosexual “propaganda” to minors.

Given this information, I would suggest that since Yelena Mizulina seems to have nothing to do with Russian-Ukrainian relations, any discussion of her status should go on another thread.
 
DaveBj said:
Given this information, I would suggest that since Yelena Mizulina seems to have nothing to do with Russian-Ukrainian relations, any discussion of her status should go on another thread.
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Wikipedia has information on her. The question brought up by another poster on this thread was whether President Putin had done anything to protect Christian values or whether this was all image and show with no substance. In an attempt to answer that question which was brought up by someone else, I submitted this example. If you check, and it is easy to do with Google and Wikipedia, you would see that with the approval of President Putin, Yelena Mizulina was a leader in crafting legislation to restrict abortions in Russia. But why did the USA punish her with sanctions, except that in alliance with President Putin, she had done work to promote Christian values in Russia?
If someone questions the credibility of Mr. Putin’s support for Christianity on this thread, I don’t see why it would make sense to put the answer to that question on an entirely different thread?
 
Tomdstone said:
Wikipedia has information on her. The question brought up by another poster on this thread was whether President Putin had done anything to protect Christian values or whether this was all image and show with no substance. In an attempt to answer that question which was brought up by someone else, I submitted this example. If you check, and it is easy to do with Google and Wikipedia, you would see that with the approval of President Putin, Yelena Mizulina was a leader in crafting legislation to restrict abortions in Russia. But why did the USA punish her with sanctions, except that in alliance with President Putin, she had done work to promote Christian values in Russia?
If someone questions the credibility of Mr. Putin’s support for Christianity on this thread, I don’t see why it would make sense to put the answer to that question on an entirely different thread?
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Because the OP’s original post had to do solely with Russian actions in the Ukraine, which is a totally separate issue from that of Russia’s anti-LGBT, anti-abortion legislation. Forum rules = stick with the subject of the original post. I agree that the U.S. sanctioning of Yelena Mizulina when she had nothing to do with Russia’s actions in Ukraine is despicable, but that is a completely different subject.
 
Paul Johnson is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent and comprehensive historians of our time. He is proudly Catholic, written a History of Modern Times which has been widely praised by conservatives and philosophers like Karl Popper for understanding the 20th Century. He has also written works on Christianity’s History, the History of the Jews, The Quest for God, Jesus: A Biography, and many other books.

He has written a stinging indictment of Putin with which I agree:
Today’s drift toward war with Russia seems like a replay of the past. Putin is a Russian nationalist, who believes in a strong Stalinist state. His goal is to reverse the events of 1989–the end of the Soviet state and dissolution of its enormous empire. He seeks to do this by using what remains of Russia’s Stalinist heritage: the military, a huge stockpile of nuclear weapons and immense resources of natural gas and other forms of energy. These are powerful tools to wield against the various weak states that were part of the U.S.S.R. None has nuclear weapons, and most are dependent on the (relatively) cheap energy Russia supplies. All have ethnic Russian minorities, who speak the language, boast of their superior Russian culture and claim to have been relegated to second-class citizenship. Putin can rely on these minorities to agitate for Russian intervention whenever he wants–most importantly in the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. His successful annexation of Crimea is greatly encouraging to his long-term plans, and it’s clear he’ll use everything in his power, including military force, to reconstruct his empire.
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forbes.com/sites/currentevents/2014/04/16/is-vladimir-putin-another-adolf-hitler/

I would add more, however, to Johnson’s description of Putin. He is not just a Russian nationalist but an unrepentant servant of the Soviet Secret Police, the KGB, which institution he glorifies above all and which formed him as a man and his understanding of democracy. Putin sees continuity from Lenin’s Secret Police, the Cheka, to today’s Russian Secret Police the FSB. Putin bemoans the end of the bloody Soviet Empire as “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th Century”. He venerates KGB head Yuri Andropov who oversaw the imprisoning and institutionalizing of hundreds of thousands of enemies of the Soviet State, including Catholics. Andropov pioneered the method of forcibly imprisoning those who were anti-Soviet into psychiatric asylums where they fed, against their will, powerful psychotropic drugs to either cure them of the disease of anti-Sovietism or, if unsuccessful, destroy them as humans. Andropov, in the whole history of psychiatry, pioneered this particularly repugnant inhumane use of psychiatry. To Putin, Andropov is a hero. Putin erects statues to him in modern Russia, he places plaques in his honour in the Lubyanka, he creates an Andropov Academy for young Russians wanting to work for Russia’s Secret Police as evidently Andropov is a moral exemplar for Russia’s youth who wish to join the institution Putin values most in Russia: the secret police. Now, one can venerate Jesus Christ or one can venerate a KGB atheist killer like Andropov, but one cannot venerate both. One can compare Lenin’s remains to the remains of Christian saints as Putin has, but that shows what Putin understands a saint to be. Putin refuses absolutely to remove the pride of place Lenin’s Mausoleum has in the heart of Moscow. Lenin was a ruthless tyrant, who had no place for concepts like “Love” (neither did Hitler). “Love” is central to the message of Christ, but Lenin dismissed it as “bourgeois sentimentality”. Lenin did not believe in it. Lenin believed in killing, “hang them all from the trees”, and bloody societal conflict. And Putin defends him, and his pride of place in Moscow.

If Putin were to take parts of Ukraine, Ukraine’s Catholics (and their independent Orthodox) would suffer if not be persecuted by the thugs Putin has sent into Ukraine and is using in Ukraine. No question.

And further to Paul Johnson’s point, it is clear Putin is not just using pro-Russian populations in places like Eastern Ukraine, he is sending in top-flight Russian Military Secret Police (GRU) agents, FSB agents, and Russian Spetsnaz to take over Ukrainian buildings in the East, kidnap and/or torture and murder Ukrainian activists or government officials, all to destabilize Ukraine and, if need be, prepare the way for a full-out invasion. Putin at all costs does not want the democratic elections for President of Ukraine scheduled for March 25 to succeed. He of course on the other hand plans to rule Russia as an unquestioned autocrat until 2024.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Hardly a coup d’etat and hardly illegal.

Yanuovych, a thoroughly corrupt man and a cats-paw for Putin tried to take the country in an economic union with impoverished, despotic Russia and away from prosperous, democratic Europe. Millions protested that. Tukovych’s bully boys shot some of them, which angered the protesters more. Then he ran into Putin’s protection because he couldn’t shoot them all.

And so, Putin then seized Crimea, driving out the Ukrainians and Tatars in an ethnic cleansing similar to that of Milosevic.

So what, then, was the government of Ukraine supposed to do? Wait until Yanko came back, if ever? Wait for Putin to say “there’s no government in Ukraine, I’ll have to take over”. The parliament selected an interim successor and selected May 25 as an election day for his replacement.

Putin won’t allow that election in advance of his conquering more of Ukraine. His seizure of more of Ukraine (which the majority of residents oppose) will happen before then. And he’ll kill not a few innocent Ukrainians in the process. But what’s the problem? After all, STalin killed millions of them, and Stalin is revered in Putin’s Russia.
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Thank you. Why don’t people get this? Stalin makes Hitler look like a school yard bully. Putin is a nightmare.
 
Tomdstone said:
I am not so sure that it is a bamboozle. For example, take a look at Putin and Yelena Mizulina. They have worked to reduce and restrict abortions in Russia. But the Americans have punished Yelena Mizulina and placed her under sanctions. On the other hand, the American government has required contraceptive coverage under Obama’s health care plan even though artificial contraception is a mortal sin. Further, America has been a leader in legalizing same sex marriage.
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I am not impressed with the citation of Obama. I voted against him twice and opposed him by word, deed, and contribution to his opponents.

Regardless, that doesn’t make Putin any less a KGB apparatchik or any more a Christian. Yes, in a country that’s rapidly losing population, he might well oppose abortion for reasons having nothing to do with religion. But whatever his motives, it’s not terribly Christian to commit aggression against one’s innocent neighbors; to send thugs to beat up and kill others, or to put half the world in fear of World War III. Not Christian at all.

And if Yelena Mizulina is one of the people sanctioned, that suggests to me that she’s one of the “robber baron” friends of Putin that has amassed huge wealth in a miserably poor country, and stands behind his conquests.

Not impressed.
 
Seamus_L said:
Only Russia Defends Eastern Christians – Russian Orthodox Church en.ria.ru/russia/20140429/189459871/Only-Russia-Defends-Eastern-Christians–Russian-Orthodox-Church.html
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I would expect the Russian E.O. to say that, ludicrous a claim as it is. I guess, though, the Russian spetsnaz are too busy shooting Ukrainian Christians to guard any of the Christians being butchered in Syria.

The Russian E.O. doesn’t even recognize the right of Greek E.O. to be in Ukraine, let alone Catholics, and most definitely not in Russia.
 
Seamus_L said:
Only Russia Defends Eastern Christians – Russian Orthodox Church en.ria.ru/russia/20140429/189459871/Only-Russia-Defends-Eastern-Christians–Russian-Orthodox-Church.html
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Interesting too, that RT (the Kremlin mouthpiece), showed live coverage of the Pope’s Easter vigil and the canonisations of Pope JP11 and Pope J23rd with news articles about both, still on the RT.com website.

Hopefully, the recent meeting with Pope Francis and the Russian Orthodox church, in November 2013, was fruitful.

en.ria.ru/art_living/20131113/184671536/Russian-Orthodox-Church-Vatican-Ready-for-Collaboration.html

pravmir.com/vatican-pope-expresses-hope-for-reunion-with-orthodox-patriarch/
 
Tomdstone said:
I am not so sure that it is a bamboozle. For example, take a look at Putin and Yelena Mizulina. They have worked to reduce and restrict abortions in Russia. But the Americans have punished Yelena Mizulina and placed her under sanctions. On the other hand, the American government has required contraceptive coverage under Obama’s health care plan even though artificial contraception is a mortal sin. Further, America has been a leader in legalizing same sex marriage.
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Putin and Yelena Mizulina are no more than wolves in sheep’s clothing. They don’t seem to get the fact that the stink gives them away. It is easy to pick a subject people are all worked up over, take sides in the pretense of some moral stand, and all the while be planning the slaughter of the masses. People need to be afraid of these type more than any other.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I am not impressed with the citation of Obama. I voted against him twice and opposed him by word, deed, and contribution to his opponents.

Regardless, that doesn’t make Putin any less a KGB apparatchik or any more a Christian. Yes, in a country that’s rapidly losing population, he might well oppose abortion for reasons having nothing to do with religion. But whatever his motives, it’s not terribly Christian to commit aggression against one’s innocent neighbors; to send thugs to beat up and kill others, or to put half the world in fear of World War III. Not Christian at all.

And if Yelena Mizulina is one of the people sanctioned, that suggests to me that she’s one of the “robber baron” friends of Putin that has amassed huge wealth in a miserably poor country, and stands behind his conquests.

Not impressed.
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👍
 
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