Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

If Russia wanted to effect a “conquest” of eastern Ukraine, it could have easily done so by now, especially with the whole USA media taking almost exclusive notice and talking endlessly about a secretly taped telephone conversation that an owner of a basketball team had with an acquaintance of his.
The overwhelming majority of people in Crimea wanted to be a part of Russia and this was verified by the election to do so and by the continuous public partying, dancing in the streets, singing and waving the Russian flags almost endlessly for a day or two after the announcement of the return of Crimea to Russia.
youtube.com/watch?v=lp6hFjnIFts
youtube.com/watch?v=DYTzs6iCRso
youtube.com/watch?v=kIL9otao8z4
youtube.com/watch?v=YU6S-T4kePg
youtube.com/watch?v=uMoUqFG6mKU

Wait and see about Eastern Ukraine. It will become part of Russia. Just because the tanks haven’t rolled, it doesn’t mean Russia won’t take it.

The Crimean election was a palpable fraud. But even if it wasn’t, Russia annexed Crimea. This is not a Czechoslovakia situation. Would you have said the same if (as before WWII) German agents went in and took over Czech government buildings and shot Czech officials, phonied up an “election” in which the only possible “vote” was “join Germany” and Germany then annexed what is now the Czech Republic? I doubt it.

Russia’s conduct here is a replay of the Anschluss in Austria. Same game by the same kind of people.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Only Russia Defends Eastern Christians – Russian Orthodox Church en.ria.ru/russia/20140429/189459871/Only-Russia-Defends-Eastern-Christians–Russian-Orthodox-Church.html

This is extremely incorrect.

Not in Syria, and certainly not the non-Russian Orthodox in Russia, where they’re not allowed, or in Ukraine where The REO says they shouldn’t be. Well, and most definitely not Eastern Catholics, either in Russia or Ukraine. Well, and they won’t allow Latin Catholics to have a bishop in Russia and undoubtedly not in Ukraine either if Russia gobbles up the whole country.

But then, the Russian E.O. doesn’t believe the Catholic Church ought to be in Western Europe or the Americas either.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The disposition of the U.S. and it’s proven inability to recognize justice in the past, puts into question it’s qualification in determining fair justice among others.

That could be applied to just about every saint and to many a churchman throughout the millenia.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Precisely, the Western media have their own agenda - for reasons best known to themselves.

However, if you read comments to most of the anti-Russian/cold war stories from these sources around 90% disagree or more to the point do not ‘believe’ the spin on the stories. They do not necessarily ‘side’ with Putin BUT do not believe anything the papers print.

This all follows on from the WMD fiasco, when over 1 million protested against the Iraq war in London - the biggest protest ever and 36 million protested worldwide at over 3000 venues - but the West went to war anyway. Also other lies in relation to Libya, etc that have been told over the past decade, so as to ‘enable’ Western intervention to ‘invade’ a country to then allegedly ‘help’ it sort out their problems.

I’m afraid it’s a case of ‘Liar, liar pants on fire’ and also ‘do as we say but not what we do’.

Britain disposed of the last of the WMD last summer at the request of the Iraqi government. Check it out. Canada, of course, took the “yellow cake” and processed it for nuclear fuel.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Russia seized Crimea and incorporated it into Russia. No way out of that. It will seize eastern and probably southern Ukraine for sure, and that will happen very soon; probably before the May 25 election. It’s already in progress, and the clock is ticking.

Whether it will stop there, only Putin, his generals and his top secret agents know.

And when Putin does seize eastern Ukraine and make it part of Russia, those who favor Russia and dislike the west will find an excuse for it.

Probably the Russophiles would be okay with Putin seizing Poland as well, but he’ll stop there, almost no matter what. If he takes all of Ukraine, he’ll push on the Baltic states, which also have significant Russian minorities due to Russian genocide. That really will risk WWIII if he does it. But Poland is not like that. No Fifth Column of any significance.

This love of autocrats is puzzling. It really is.

 

[josie_L]

Russia seized Crimea and incorporated it into Russia. No way out of that. It will seize eastern and probably southern Ukraine for sure, and that will happen very soon; probably before the May 25 election. It’s already in progress, and the clock is ticking.

Whether it will stop there, only Putin, his generals and his top secret agents know.

And when Putin does seize eastern Ukraine and make it part of Russia, those who favor Russia and dislike the west will find an excuse for it.

Probably the Russophiles would be okay with Putin seizing Poland as well, but he’ll stop there, almost no matter what. If he takes all of Ukraine, he’ll push on the Baltic states, which also have significant Russian minorities due to Russian genocide. That really will risk WWIII if he does it. But Poland is not like that. No Fifth Column of any significance.

This love of autocrats is puzzling. It really is.

I’m with you Ridgerunner, I don’t get it either.

 

[HansTrappist]

The Crimean election was a palpable fraud.

Prove it!

The only fraud that occurred was the illegal and violent removal of the legitimate and democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych, who was replaced by men and women much more corrupt and violent than anything he was ever alleged to have been.

Russia’s conduct here is a replay of the Anschluss in Austria. Same game by the same kind of people.

What a highly ignorant and uncharitable thing to say. And also hypocritical, given the nature of the Maidan.

Vladimir Putin was granted the authority to protect Russia’s national security and the interests of Russians living in Ukraine given that there is not currently a legitimate regime in Kiev. Putin has every right to use force against the Western-supported, violent insurgents that are occupying Kiev in contravention of international law. The fact that Russia has been patiently refraining from putting an end to this Western-encouraged madness is telling. Russia would not even be in this situation had the West not stirred up unrest and violence in Ukraine against the legitimate, democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine.

 

[asnate]

Russia seized Crimea and incorporated it into Russia. No way out of that. It will seize eastern and probably southern Ukraine for sure, and that will happen very soon; probably before the May 25 election. It’s already in progress, and the clock is ticking.

Whether it will stop there, only Putin, his generals and his top secret agents know.

And when Putin does seize eastern Ukraine and make it part of Russia, those who favor Russia and dislike the west will find an excuse for it.

Probably the Russophiles would be okay with Putin seizing Poland as well, but he’ll stop there, almost no matter what. If he takes all of Ukraine, he’ll push on the Baltic states, which also have significant Russian minorities due to Russian genocide. That really will risk WWIII if he does it. But Poland is not like that. No Fifth Column of any significance.

This love of autocrats is puzzling. It really is.

I am from Latvia and we have significant minority indeed. Quess how many would like to live in Russia? Some 5% , maybe. Most Russians living in Latvia want to live in Europe.
On the other hand, 300$ a day - like separatists in Ukraine are paid is quite a money and might be quite tempting.

 

[latin_rite]

Nonsense.

Have those who opposed Russia’s agent Yanukovych marched in and taken over any other country? Have they seized city halls and police stations in Russia? Do they have 40 or 50,000 well-armed troops on Russia’s border?

This is actually not at all complicated. A million or more people protested Yanuk’s thievery and attempt to move Ukraine into Russia’s orbit. In order to be motivated to do that, all they had to do was look at European prosperity and freedom and compare with Russian poverty and despotism. Easy choice to make.

Yanuko’s thugs shot a few protesters, then he ran off to Putin’s protection. Putin conquered Crimea and will now conquer eastern and southern Ukraine. The only way in which Russia’s conquest was influenced by the Maidan protests is that “Plan A” failed, so Putin went to “Plan B” to acquire Ukraine. If “Plan B” (internal subversion) doesn’t work, he’ll go to “Plan C”, outright military conquest by Russian troops that admit to being Russian troops.

As Russian aggression becomes more and more obvious, it’s time people stopped blaming the victim.

They haven’t invaded the Ukraine and Crimea was hardly a invasion. More an invitation.

 

[latin_rite]

Securing Russias access to the only warm sea port was the main reason Russia helped the Crimea. Ukraine had just ousted the democratically elected leader by violence and was being run by people who were put in place by the anti Russian NATO countries. They were only protecting their interests Something the U.S has done time and time again. The only difference is, the fuel Russia was/is protecting is Russia’s

 

[Ridgerunner]

Prove it!

The only fraud that occurred was the illegal and violent removal of the legitimate and democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych, who was replaced by men and women much more corrupt and violent than anything he was ever alleged to have been.

What a highly ignorant and uncharitable thing to say. And also hypocritical, given the nature of the Maidan.

Vladimir Putin was granted the authority to protect Russia’s national security and the interests of Russians living in Ukraine given that there is not currently a legitimate regime in Kiev. Putin has every right to use force against the Western-supported, violent insurgents that are occupying Kiev in contravention of international law. The fact that Russia has been patiently refraining from putting an end to this Western-encouraged madness is telling. Russia would not even be in this situation had the West not stirred up unrest and violence in Ukraine against the legitimate, democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine.

I’ll ignore the gratuitous personal insult.

Let’s turn it around, prove that the election in Crimea was NOT a Russian-operated fraud. That has been demonstrated in this thread so many times it hardly bears repeating. But even if it wasn’t, the fact remains that Russia seized the territory of another country and incorporated it into Russia.

And Russia isn’t finished either. Wait and see. Will you defend Putin if he seizes more of Ukraine? Are those who like Putin willing to draw a line where he should stop his conquests? At the gates of Kiev? At the Polish border? At the Atlantic? Where?

Why WOULDN’T millions protest Yanukovych’s attempt to draw Ukraine into the Russian obit instead of becoming a fully European state? They could easily see that the west is prosperous and free, while Russia is threadbare and unfree. Easy choice. Yanukovych’s thugs shot some of the protesters, and then he fled to the arms of his master, Putin, leaving the Ukranian parliament (some of which were Yanuk’s .

Why WOULDN’T Ukrainians be sick of Yanuk’s unspeakable corruption and his thefts in a poor country? ryot.org/exiled-ukrainian-president-spent-115-thousand-boar-shooting-range/587353

Defending the indefensible is always astonishing, even though, in the west, we have become accustomed to apologias for autocrats, as long as they are anti-western.

 

[Ridgerunner]

They haven’t invaded the Ukraine and Crimea was hardly a invasion. More an invitation.

An “invitation” by Russian agents, following a fraudulent referendum. fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-signs-pointed-to-crimea-independence-vote-but-polls-didnt/

Wait and see, you’ll see Putin devour more of Ukraine. It has already started. Same game as in Crimea. Will Russophiles approve that too? Will it be the same rationalization or some new one?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Securing Russias access to the only warm sea port was the main reason Russia helped **ITSELF TO **the Crimea.

There, fixed it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am from Latvia and we have significant minority indeed. Quess how many would like to live in Russia? Some 5% , maybe. Most Russians living in Latvia want to live in Europe.
On the other hand, 300$ a day - like separatists in Ukraine are paid is quite a money and might be quite tempting.

A handful of Putin lovers in the west will excuse anything he does. In those parts of Europe most threatened by Russian aggression, the attitude is very different. In particular, those countries that lived under Russian domination and genocide for decades do not want a repeat of that.

$300/day might well tempt some to betray their countrymen. Undoubtedly it does, just as 30 pieces of silver tempted Judas. But after Russia seizes eastern Ukraine, they’ll just be poverty-stricken Russians for the rest of their lives. A poor trade, but some are that short-sighted.

 

[ffg]

That’s the way the cookie crumbles. One side protests and gets what they want by overthrowing the democratically elected government, then the other side feel unjustly treated and protest to get what they want.

I’m sure there are a lot of folks who would love this to be true vs. what reality is with regard to the situation.

A country invaded another country, that’s not two sides to one country’s coin.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Frankly the West has got a bit to answer for.

I’ve attached a link to an article by Malcolm Fraser, a former **conservative **prime minister of Australia.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/03/ukraine-theres-no-way-out-unless-the-west-understands-its-past-mistakes

As far as he’s concerned, the West has deliberately contrived to antagonise Russian ever since the wall came down, beginning with Clinton.

What we’re seeing now is one of the results of that policy.

The following link gives a bit on Malcolm Fraser himself.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Fraser

 

[Ridgerunner]

Frankly the West has got a bit to answer for.

I’ve attached a link to an article by Malcolm Fraser, a former **conservative **prime minister of Australia.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/03/ukraine-theres-no-way-out-unless-the-west-understands-its-past-mistakes

As far as he’s concerned, the West has deliberately contrived to antagonise Russian ever since the wall came down, beginning with Clinton.

What we’re seeing now is one of the results of that policy.

The following link gives a bit on Malcolm Fraser himself.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Fraser

What a joke this article is. He blames the west for not allowing Russia to subjugate a people against which Russia had previously committed one of the world’s worst genocides. But, then, some just want to blame one’s own for what someone else does, like a spoiled teenager who blames his parents because he’s not as popular at school as he would prefer.

But regardless, Russia broke its agreement and annexed Crimea. It’s going to annex more of Ukraine, if not all of it, and very soon. My guess is it will do so before the elections on May 25, but I’m not privy to Putin’s email, so I don’t know what his timetable for Ukrainian conquest is.

But conquer more of it he will.

 

[pepipop]

They just keep on stirring…

au.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-064648945.html

The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
The International Monetary Fund’s official report on the emergency loan, released Thursday, concedes that there are deep risks to its successful implementation, including the quickly eroding economy, corruption, and the current and future government’s ability to implement much-needed reforms.
But it also says the challenge Kiev faces in maintaining control of the pro-Moscow east is a threat to the entire loan program.
“Ukraine – and the authorities’ program – is facing unprecedented risks,” the report admits.
“Traditionally, policy implementation risks have been significant in Ukraine, and the issue may resurface with the coming presidential elections in May 2014. In the same vein, vested interests could be expected to resist governance reforms.”
Moreover, it added, “Should the central government lose effective control over the East, the program will need to be re-designed.”
The highly industrialized eastern region is crucial to the country’s economy, the three provinces of Donetsk, Lugansk, and Kharkiv accounting for about 21.5 percent of GDP and 30 percent of total industrial production.

 

[latin_rite]

An “invitation” by Russian agents, following a fraudulent referendum. fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-signs-pointed-to-crimea-independence-vote-but-polls-didnt/

Wait and see, you’ll see Putin devour more of Ukraine. It has already started. Same game as in Crimea. Will Russophiles approve that too? Will it be the same rationalization or some new one?

How many died ousting the legally elected government v how many died from the Crimean annexation?

I am hardly a “Russophile” just not gullible. I am not blinded by old cold war rhetoric. But that might change as Russia seems to be taking on the role as the good guy these days.

Helping people return to their former country.

Stopping the U.S from openly starting another war (Against Syria)

Not arming Al Qaeda in Syria.

Not supporting rebels who crucify Christians for not converting to islam or beheading whole villages of women and children because they happen to be from a different sect of islam. like Obama is doing… Yep if Ronald Regan was to come back tomorrow he would be very confused, what with Russia being the good guys and all. ( i would provide proof, but it’s rather graphic. But if you insists i can provide it.)

 

[Seamus_L]

None of these takeovers by seperatists in Eastern Ukraine would have occured had it not been for the visably Western backed coup in Kiev and the prominent involvement of anti-Russian extremists. Had that not been the case, then why did this all happen now and not 5 or 10 years ago ?
They may love the Euromaidan in places like L'viv, but in Donetsk, Luhansk, Slaviansk, etc, alot of people don't share that view. And even a recent survey in the Kyiv Post admits as much.