Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

Indeed, the slander that arose via a play written by a Communist playright, if I recall it correctly, was so effective that we continue to live with a large number of people persistently believing that today, in spite of all the evidence being to the contrary.

Some believed it because they were fooled. Some believed it because such a belief met their hearts’ desire. It was not uncommon in the old Cold War to see westerners who, in their dislike of western prosperity and freedom, embraced the gray world of Soviet socialism; a system they would not have chosen (and did not choose) to live under.

It’s not so different now. In the religious sphere, some eagerly celebrate the “discovery” of some heretical document or artifact as long as it seems to undercut traditional Christian beliefs. In the more secular realm, some still resent the fact that westerners can be prosperous and can say what they want, and particularly because some become very, very prosperous. Like the parent-supported “socialist revolutionaries” of the 1970s, some today are eager to embrace some despotic system or ruler simply because he or it stands against what they resent, or seems to do so. It’s the petulance of a spoiled child of the west. One supposes we will always have them because, unlike in those societies they purport to admire, they are free to speak their minds in the west.

 

[Athanasiy]

I read in the newspaper that one of the components of the agreement with the EU is ‘‘environmental’’.
So , the industries will have to take care of the environment.
Under the European approach quality of life is determined not only by the number of products, but also by environmental and clean air, water and the state of the environment in which people live.
This by the way is very important for Ukraine. I’m sure that gradually after these measures to protect the environment, in industrialized cities we will have less heart disease, less lung cancers , less chronic bronchitis.
It’s a small remark in addition to European integration.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I read in the newspaper that one of the components of the agreement with the EU is ‘‘environmental’’.
So , the industries will have to take care of the environment.
Under the European approach quality of life is determined not only by the number of products, but also by environmental and clean air, water and the state of the environment in which people live.
This by the way is very important for Ukraine. I’m sure that gradually after these measures to protect the environment, in industrialized cities we will have less heart disease, less lung cancers , less chronic bronchitis.
It’s a small remark in addition to European integration.

While it is my belief that some (but not all) EU environmental regulation is excessive, Ukrainians might not mind that, having been exposed to the Chernobyl disaster by the Soviets.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

There was a report posted on the Russian presidential website that showed the true voting results from the Crimean referendum.

forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/

Timing seems a bit fishy seeing as the Kremlin just released a human rights report (a so-called “White Book”) on reported human rights violations in Ukraine.

Be that as it may, the article does not provide any proof and apparently no one managed to copy and paste the original Government blog posted article, so all we have in the article is hearsay.

Also, that 15% number rings bells. As one commentator on the Forbe’s article noted "

Mark Sawtelle 15 hours ago

Not overly surprising, but I’d like to see that post, since its existence and contents is important. The Ukrainian TV report cited (tsn.ua/politika/pid-chas-psevdoreferendumu-v-krimu-naspravdi-lishe-15-gromadyan-hotili-priyednatisya-do-rosiyi-348108.html) refers several times to the Majilis, which is the assembly of the ethnic Crimean Tatars, who make up about 15% of the population of Crimea. They were widely reported to have largely boycotted the referendum (with good reason). Is this whole report actually about them? This Forbes post seems to assume that it’s about the whole population of Crimea (which is in fact largely Russian and quite pro-annexation).

It seems like a stunning coincidence that the Crimean Tatars who make up 15% of the population and a Russian governmental agency’s purported report both circulate around the exact same percentile, as the Forbe’s article makes plain:

Official Kremlin results: 97% for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and percent of Crimeans voting in favor 82%.

President’s Human Rights Council results: 50% for annexation, turnout 30%, percent of Crimeans voting in favor 15%.

Regardless, it is hearsay evidence at best for now.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

Putin’s Propaganda: Up is down and down is up: His old-school info warfare is working

nationalreview.com/article/377202/putins-propaganda-john-fund

Youtube (3mins): CIA Operation Mockingbird

From a Congressional Report on CIA meddling in the media/news in 1976:

“The CIA currently maintains a network of several hundred foreign individuals around the world who provide intelligence for the CIA and at times attempt to influence opinion through the use of covert propaganda.”

And continuing we learn from Congress,

“These individuals provide the CIA with direct access to a large number of newspapers and periodicals, scores of press services and news agencies, radio and television stations, commercial book publishers, and other foreign media outlets.”

One wonders whether or not all those “anonymous government sources” we read being quoted in articles and reports by major news providers is nothing more than a continuation of the media-intelligence relationship spoken about by the former media executive in the short youtube clip/interview given above.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Timing seems a bit fishy seeing as the Kremlin just released a human rights report (a so-called “White Book”) on reported human rights violations in Ukraine.

Be that as it may, the article does not provide any proof and apparently no one managed to copy and paste the original Government blog posted article, so all we have in the article is hearsay.

Also, that 15% number rings bells. As one commentator on the Forbe’s article noted "

Mark Sawtelle 15 hours ago

Not overly surprising, but I’d like to see that post, since its existence and contents is important. The Ukrainian TV report cited (tsn.ua/politika/pid-chas-psevdoreferendumu-v-krimu-naspravdi-lishe-15-gromadyan-hotili-priyednatisya-do-rosiyi-348108.html) refers several times to the Majilis, which is the assembly of the ethnic Crimean Tatars, who make up about 15% of the population of Crimea. They were widely reported to have largely boycotted the referendum (with good reason). Is this whole report actually about them? This Forbes post seems to assume that it’s about the whole population of Crimea (which is in fact largely Russian and quite pro-annexation).

It seems like a stunning coincidence that the Crimean Tatars who make up 15% of the population and a Russian governmental agency’s purported report both circulate around the exact same percentile, as the Forbe’s article makes plain:

Official Kremlin results: 97% for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and percent of Crimeans voting in favor 82%.

President’s Human Rights Council results: 50% for annexation, turnout 30%, percent of Crimeans voting in favor 15%.

Regardless, it is hearsay evidence at best for now.

Several Ukrainian media organizations have screenshots captured of the original post… and then there is that TV interview that the head of the Russian president’s human rights council gave where she references this data.

As for the screenshots, they’re out there. The English version of the report has been totally removed from the site. A Russian version still exists and includes the data. There are some interesting points in the report besides the data, too – it acknowledges serious religious issues such as the government basically banning the Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate in Crimea.

Because I’m feeling kind today, I’ll save you the research and give you the link to the cached version of the website in Russian. ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/proxy?ep=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&epile=4q6n41784r4441314q4459784s4638784q4335725n586o3q&edata=0c4131495b0be75cb5fd9b9e7799794b&ek=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&ekdata=b45a76136d8f29bc342cc3d03fcfe981

 

[Athanasiy]

While it is my belief that some (but not all) EU environmental regulation is excessive, Ukrainians might not mind that, having been exposed to the Chernobyl disaster by the Soviets.

what exactly you mean ?
as far as i know , the industrial cities on the east of the country standing for its right to breath safely, because of air pollution. The sea of Azov , flora, fauna.
Only Euro-integration processes can regulate the environmental abuses and its devastating effects.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

Several Ukrainian media organizations have screenshots captured of the original post… and then there is that TV interview that the head of the Russian president’s human rights council gave where she references this data.

As for the screenshots, they’re out there. The English version of the report has been totally removed from the site. A Russian version still exists and includes the data. There are some interesting points in the report besides the data, too – it acknowledges serious religious issues such as the government basically banning the Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate in Crimea.

Because I’m feeling kind today, I’ll save you the research and give you the link to the cached version of the website in Russian. ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/proxy?ep=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&epile=4q6n41784r4441314q4459784s4638784q4335725n586o3q&edata=0c4131495b0be75cb5fd9b9e7799794b&ek=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&ekdata=b45a76136d8f29bc342cc3d03fcfe981

Thank you but the link is not working for me.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

what exactly you mean ?
as far as i know , the industrial cities on the east of the country standing for its right to breath safely, because of air pollution. The sea of Azov , flora, fauna.
Only Euro-integration processes can regulate the environmental abuses and its devastating effects.

To be fair I am sure national legislation, investment and regulation could do the same.

 

[Ridgerunner]

To be fair I am sure national legislation, investment and regulation could do the same.

Well, maybe. But Ukraine’s population is about 40 million and it’s not a very wealthy country. One questions how long it would take to develop expertise comparable to that of some of the EU folks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Looks like Russia has set up a bogus “referendum” on “independence” (meaning annexation to Russia) on May 11 in the Donbas region of Ukraine, which holds 15% of the population of Ukraine and 1/3 of its industrial output.

Putin has announced that he will not accept the results of the May 25 Ukrainian election, no matter what. (Realizing no Russian puppet will get elected.) So, it’s be ruled by a Russian puppet (Yanukovych) or lose the most productive part of your country and be ready to accept a lot of refugees.(as was the case with Crimea) Russia will consider any Ukrainian government illegitimate and do whatever it wants to do to Ukraine.

It has seemed to me Putin will take over Eastern Ukraine before May 25 anyway. It’s a wonderful deal for him and his cronies. The oligarchs get to take over at least 1/3 of Ukrainian industry, all of its port facilities on the Black Sea, most of the good soil and please the Russian people with chauvinistic conquests and Soviet-style parades on Red Square, while their economy shrinks and they, themselves, get nothing.

news.yahoo.com/both-sides-bury-dead-ukraine-slides-towards-war-111340934.html;_ylt=AwrSyCRwBWlTNhgAJjbQtDMD

 

[pepipop]

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621367/More-30-Russian-Chechen-terrorists-killed-Ukraine-local-forces-escalate-attacks-pro-Moscow-militia.html

Quite, enlightening to see the comments to the above media propaganda and this has been happening worldwide towards their similar anti-Russian ‘press’ stories.

Oh dear, Liar, liar, pants on fire - and there are numerous more posts to the article similar to those posted below!

*Isitin Chichi, Nottingham, United Kingdom, moments ago
**The purpose of this tragical article is to MONITOR how far media can go with their utter anti-Russia propaganda. Meanwhile monitoring the response of people who will try to defend an integrity and how many would voluntarily accuse Putin. Media preparing a ground for some upcoming uncivil acts…
**

leobaklan, Vologda, Russia, 14 minutes ago
You lie! Here’s a video from the funeral: youtu.be/uid9kgchC1g

Venom, Dublin, Ireland, 26 minutes ago
Indeed, truth is the first casualty of war. By publishing unconfirmed lies you cover the crimes of Kiev’s junta, who deliberately warp the news to their advantage. Should they end up in Hague, you’ll be called to account.

thebestcountry, london, United Kingdom, 31 minutes ago
DM, we do understand that you are paid by your owners to uphold anti-Russian hysteria, but the amount of lies in your “reports” exceeds all thinkable and unthinkable limits… Eventually, this newspaper will be rejected by the educated readers with ability for critical thinking and analysis, by those who wants to know the TRUTH

Grumpy Fish, Lowestoft, United Kingdom, 32 minutes ago
**Lie! Girl was killed by UKRAINIAN ARMY!
**
Sositop Wertua, Obolensk, Russia, 36 minutes ago
"Mourning: A friend of 21-year old nurse Yulia Izotova cries while holding a picture during her funeral in Kramatorsk. She was killed by shots fired from a Russian military column" It’s a lie, she killed our Ukrainian military.

Sositop Wertua, Obolensk, Russia, 38 minutes ago
" A friend of 21-year old nurse Yulia Izotova cries while holding a picture during her funeral in Kramatorsk. She was killed by shots fired from a Russian military column" It’s a lie, she killed our Ukrainian military.

Fedor Vaschilov, Moscow, Russia, 41 minutes ago
**Nice example of the ‘free objective’ western press. A lie from the first for the last word - plain and stupid.
**
Alexander Strelkov, Epsom, 49 minutes ago
**Wills Robinson, the girl was killed by the Ukrainian Army and tens of others.
**
Igoriz, Kherson, Ukraine, 50 minutes ago
**Yulia Izotova was killed by Ukranian military. She, with her friends, tryed to cross a blockpost of Ukrainian army on car. Ukrainian soldiers opened fire. This told her aunt.
**
metel, Severomorsk, Russia, 59 minutes ago
The young nurse from Eastern Ukraine, Yulia Izotova, was killed by ukrainian soldiers! They opened fire on her and her friends from a heavy machine gun! You are not journalists, but just stinky liars!

jalllll, nocity, United States, 1 hour ago
Please read the truth ersieesist dot livejournal dot com / 813 dot html

Vladislav Breeg, Donetsk, Ukraine, 1 hour ago
*How could you dare to say Yulia Izotova 21 years old nurse who helped self-defense forces was shot by Russian army? She was killed by the Ukrainian military, I live in Slovyansk
**
john marks, liverpool, United Kingdom, 1 hour ago
DM. Haven’t the west killed enough innocent Russians? 22million in WW2. Now the USA,who killed 3million Vietnamese and millions of Koreans,Iraquies,Afghans, now wants its Kiev right wing thugs to kill some more.We won’t be fooled like our great grand parents in 1914.

 

[Ridgerunner]

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621367/More-30-Russian-Chechen-terrorists-killed-Ukraine-local-forces-escalate-attacks-pro-Moscow-militia.html

Quite, enlightening to see the comments to the above media propaganda and this has been happening worldwide towards their similar anti-Russian ‘press’ stories.

These people can say what they want, but the plain facts remain.

Russia has annexed Crimea.
Russia is in the process of annexing eastern and southern Ukraine.
Putin has announced he will not recognize an elected government in Kiev, no matter who wins.
Russia might not take all of Ukraine, but it will take most of its industrial base, all of its ports on the Black Sea, and best agricultural lands and make them part of Russia.

It will happen very, very soon.

 

[asnate]

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621367/More-30-Russian-Chechen-terrorists-killed-Ukraine-local-forces-escalate-attacks-pro-Moscow-militia.html

Quite, enlightening to see the comments to the above media propaganda and this has been happening worldwide towards their similar anti-Russian ‘press’ stories.

Oh dear, Liar, liar, pants on fire - and there are numerous more posts to the article similar to those posted below!

*Isitin Chichi, Nottingham, United Kingdom, moments ago
**The purpose of this tragical article is to MONITOR how far media can go with their utter anti-Russia propaganda. Meanwhile monitoring the response of people who will try to defend an integrity and how many would voluntarily accuse Putin. Media preparing a ground for some upcoming uncivil acts…

---

leobaklan, Vologda, Russia, 14 minutes ago
You lie! Here’s a video from the funeral: youtu.be/uid9kgchC1g

Venom, Dublin, Ireland, 26 minutes ago
Indeed, truth is the first casualty of war. By publishing unconfirmed lies you cover the crimes of Kiev’s junta, who deliberately warp the news to their advantage. Should they end up in Hague, you’ll be called to account.

thebestcountry, london, United Kingdom, 31 minutes ago
DM, we do understand that you are paid by your owners to uphold anti-Russian hysteria, but the amount of lies in your “reports” exceeds all thinkable and unthinkable limits… Eventually, this newspaper will be rejected by the educated readers with ability for critical thinking and analysis, by those who wants to know the TRUTH

Grumpy Fish, Lowestoft, United Kingdom, 32 minutes ago
**Lie! Girl was killed by UKRAINIAN ARMY!
**
Sositop Wertua, Obolensk, Russia, 36 minutes ago
"Mourning: A friend of 21-year old nurse Yulia Izotova cries while holding a picture during her funeral in Kramatorsk. She was killed by shots fired from a Russian military column" It’s a lie, she killed our Ukrainian military.

Sositop Wertua, Obolensk, Russia, 38 minutes ago
" A friend of 21-year old nurse Yulia Izotova cries while holding a picture during her funeral in Kramatorsk. She was killed by shots fired from a Russian military column" It’s a lie, she killed our Ukrainian military.

Fedor Vaschilov, Moscow, Russia, 41 minutes ago
**Nice example of the ‘free objective’ western press. A lie from the first for the last word - plain and stupid.
**
Alexander Strelkov, Epsom, 49 minutes ago
**Wills Robinson, the girl was killed by the Ukrainian Army and tens of others.
**
Igoriz, Kherson, Ukraine, 50 minutes ago
**Yulia Izotova was killed by Ukranian military. She, with her friends, tryed to cross a blockpost of Ukrainian army on car. Ukrainian soldiers opened fire. This told her aunt.
**
metel, Severomorsk, Russia, 59 minutes ago
The young nurse from Eastern Ukraine, Yulia Izotova, was killed by ukrainian soldiers! They opened fire on her and her friends from a heavy machine gun! You are not journalists, but just stinky liars!

jalllll, nocity, United States, 1 hour ago
Please read the truth ersieesist dot livejournal dot com / 813 dot html

Vladislav Breeg, Donetsk, Ukraine, 1 hour ago
**How could you dare to say Yulia Izotova 21 years old nurse who helped self-defense forces was shot by Russian army? She was killed by the Ukrainian military, I live in Slovyansk
**
john marks, liverpool, United Kingdom, 1 hour ago
DM. Haven’t the west killed enough innocent Russians? 22million in WW2. Now the USA,who killed 3million Vietnamese and millions of Koreans,Iraquies,Afghans, now wants its Kiev right wing thugs to kill some more.We won’t be fooled like our great grand parents in 1914.

Please read about trolls on Guardian website:
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online
We see these trolls on a lot of sites, maybe even on CAF.

 

[pepipop]

Please read about trolls on Guardian website:
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online
We see these trolls on a lot of sites, maybe even on CAF.

LOL hahahaha… Well the Western media have to cover their backs in some way, and I suppose this is as good a way as any. Needless to say there’s no proof - but when did ‘proof’ or ‘truth’ ever come into anything reported.

The West don’t ‘rule’ the media airways anymore, mostly due to too many lies over the past 15 years re: Iraq, Lybia etc… so no-one believes them. I’m sure the Daily Fail could analyse the ISPs of the comments made to their article and if all are from Russia would be very quick to point that out. However, I am quite certain that would not be the case.

The ‘trolls’ must have responded to the Guardian article too, one example as below:

*Forthestate peacefulmilitant
46
47
She uses deliberately inflammatory (loaded) language like “fascists” to describe the current government in Kiev

That’s because the current government in Kiev is dominated, in all its crucial departments, by fascists. if you bothered to do the very minimum of research, you would realise that every time you come on this site to comment on this topic you are supporting fascists, and the people who murdered more than thirty people two days ago by burning them alive in the trade union building.
Here is some evidence of the fascist credentials of Svoboda and Right Sector, since you clearly haven’t bothered to research it yourself:

channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police

channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police

I’ve picked innocuous sources, hardly renowned for their radicalism, so you won’t be too offended by them daring to discredit the far right in Ukraine by exposing their fascist, neo-Nazi ideology.

Unfortunately your constant denial of these well known facts make you a supporter of mass murder and neo-Nazism. It’s a shameful position. You should consider it.

5 May 2014 09:03*

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Thank you but the link is not working for me.

I don’t know why the cached version doesn’t work for you – it does for me. You can find a direct link to the site from the Forbes article… president-sovet.ru/structure/gruppa_po_migratsionnoy_politike/materialy/problemy_zhiteley_kryma.php
I gave a cached version because I suspect that the Russian version of the report, like the English version, will be changed soon. But with the original web address you can look up the cached version in the search engine of your choice.

At the time I’m writing this, the section titled “Referendum” reads:

Референдум

По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:

• подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;

• жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.

Translated into English:

According to almost all surveyed specialists and citizens :

• The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea as a whole according to different data 50-60% voted for joining Russia with a voter turnout total of 30-50 % ;

• Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia, as for the termination, in their words, of the “corrupt lawlessness and thieves’ dominance of Donetsk henchmen.” Inhabitants of Sevastopol voted for annexation to Russia. Fears of illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea.

That reference to “corrupt lawlessness and thieves’ dominance of Donetsk henchmen” that most Crimea residents said they were voting against is, of course, a reference to Yanukovych and his regime…

The rest of the report is worth reading as well, since it acknowledges other problems like the government basically banning the Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate as well as new government discrimination against the Ukrainian and Tatar languages. If the report changes, well, you can look up the cached version in the search engine of your choice.

 

[Ridgerunner]

LOL hahahaha… Well the Western media have to cover their backs in some way, and I suppose this is as good a way as any. Needless to say there’s no proof - but when did ‘proof’ or ‘truth’ ever come into anything reported.

The West don’t ‘rule’ the media airways anymore, mostly due to too many lies over the past 15 years re: Iraq, Lybia etc… so no-one believes them. I’m sure the Daily Fail could analyse the ISPs of the comments made to their article and if all are from Russia would be very quick to point that out. However, I am quite certain that would not be the case.

One needs to realize the western media is pretty far to the left, generally speaking. Barack Obama has been their darling for years, and his policies have been given a pass. If the western liberal media now points up what are truly massive policy failures, which they’re now doing, they would do so only reluctantly because it casts a poor light on their darling and upon a vast array of mistaken notions about “reset” relationship with Russia, “peace in our time” and so on.

Obama snickered at Romney’s statement that Russia is an adversary to the U.S., in front of the American people. And the media hailed him for it. Hillary Clinton, the presidential hopeful, is the one who produced the “reset button” in the naive belief she was somehow changing the nature of things with Russia.

They now look like the fools they were, and none of the western reporting of what’s going on in Ukraine is helpful to Obama, Clinton or the left in general.

When the media report things that can only be embarrassments to them and their political favorites, you can pretty well take it as the truth.

On the other hand, we’re to believe a KBG colonel and his oligarchs and his government leaders who have a massive history of producing disinformation and a very profitable acquisition at their fingertips? At a point, credulity needs to end even for those who aren’t particularly fond of the west.

How is the media to put it? Are they to deny that Crimea is now part of a Russia that twice agreed that it should be part of Ukraine? Are they to deny that there are Russian military in Ukraine? Are they to deny that Russians have taken over government buildings in Ukraine and ousted the leaders there?

The media knows what’s coming, and they know it’s coming soon…the conquest of the best and most productive parts of Ukraine and ultimate ownership of its assets by the Putin oligarchs; possibly Russian conquest of all of Ukraine. How could anyone expect them to cover up the obvious and harm their future credibility further?

As embarrassing as it surely is to western media, some things just can’t be denied or made more palatable. Russia is slowly conquering a neighbor, and there just isn’t any way to deny it.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

I don’t know why the cached version doesn’t work for you – it does for me. You can find a direct link to the site from the Forbes article… president-sovet.ru/structure/gruppa_po_migratsionnoy_politike/materialy/problemy_zhiteley_kryma.php
I gave a cached version because I suspect that the Russian version of the report, like the English version, will be changed soon. But with the original web address you can look up the cached version in the search engine of your choice.

At the time I’m writing this, the section titled “Referendum” reads:

Translated into English:

That reference to “corrupt lawlessness and thieves’ dominance of Donetsk henchmen” that most Crimea residents said they were voting against is, of course, a reference to Yanukovych and his regime…

The rest of the report is worth reading as well, since it acknowledges other problems like the government basically banning the Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate as well as new government discrimination against the Ukrainian and Tatar languages. If the report changes, well, you can look up the cached version in the search engine of your choice.

I agree that serious human rights violations are mentioned in the report, including deaths, murder, torture and kidnapping. Those allegations deserve attention, which is quite probably exactly why they were brought to light in this report. They should be investigated and offenders brought to justice.

That being said, let’s review just what this report is:

"The review outlines some aspects tezisno problems faced by residents of the Crimea in the integration of new entities of the Russian Federation in the economic, financial, credit and legal system of the country. Information is divided on “citizenship”, “registration (residence permit)”, “shelter”, “registration of rights to real estate”, “food and products”, “educational institutions”, “international relations”, “religion and the church,” "resonant murder, detention and kidnapping of civilians, "the banking system. pensions and social benefits “,” judiciary “,” media “,” business “, the earth and the position of the villagers”, “tourism”, “referendum”. In this overview does not contain political assessments, the results of the official polls, surveys or examinations. *It presents only personal observations and opinions of the authors. In particular, speaking about the Crimean referendum review authors convey only value judgments of his * interlocutors, not appreciating their objectivity and accuracy.

The Council requests the media not to distort the content of this review."

There is no source given for the data. Where did they (or he) get those numbers from? Did one man conduct a survey of the entire population? Did he do that in the space of three days?

“One of its authors, a member of Eugene Beavers, from 16 to 18 April 2014 made a private visit to the Crimea, the result of which was a review of the problems of local residents in different areas.”

Personally I am surprised that this story isn’t getting attention from major news sources, which normally are not shy about publishing bad news about Putin, Russia or Crimea. I think it’s tragic that the least valuable part of this report got the spotlight but that the allegations of crimes committed by Crimean authorities did not get any attention.

As for the Kiev Patriarchate, I am not sure what the report means when they say it was ended and then immediately reference an ongoing dispute about property. Presumably if it was terminated as a legal entity then there could be no property dispute.

Finally, Forbes is nowhere justified in its “15%” claim based on the given data -not sourced- in the report. The report states:

• The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia (50-80% turnout), in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50%;

The implication being that the “vast majority” of voters both in Sevastopol and the Crimea voted in the positive but for different motives, with that difference articulated in the next paragraph in the report.

Now even taking the minimum given number (“30%” of the population; that is, the “total”) for Crimea (though this excludes Sevastopol), a “vast majority” in favour at 30% of the population could not conceivably be reduced to 15% of the population in favour, which would be a bare half of voters and thus not a “vast majority” of them. How the report acknowledges a “vast majority of inhabitants” voting but then gives “50%” as a minimum is beyond me and is rather contradictory. The range expressed (“50%-80%”) sounds more like a guesstimate than the result of any serious survey.**

 

[KyrieEleison17]

LOL hahahaha… Well the Western media have to cover their backs in some way, and I suppose this is as good a way as any. Needless to say there’s no proof - but when did ‘proof’ or ‘truth’ ever come into anything reported.

This “sin” is a peculiarly “nasty” habit of modern Western journalists and politicians: make accusations and engage in slander without ever bothering to supply even a modicum of proof or evidence to support it.

Trolling covers a multitude of sins but a particularly nasty strain has emerged in the midst of the armed conflict in Ukraine, which infests comment threads on the Guardian and elsewhere, despite the best efforts of moderators. Readers and reporters alike are concerned that these are from those paid to troll, and to denigrate in abusive terms anyone criticising Russia or President Vladimir Putin.

Where’s my paycheque Putin! LOL

 

[KyrieEleison17]

On the other hand, we’re to believe a KBG colonel and his oligarchs and his government leaders who have a massive history of producing disinformation and a very profitable acquisition at their fingertips?

Actually studies on this issue show that the Ukraine would be an enormous liability for the Russian government - even if only 30% of the population were to end up Russian citizens. The reason is because Ukraine is completely broke, its entire economy needs renovating to meet standards and huge investment if it is ever going to become actually productive or lucrative. Ukraine needs a huge investment of time and money. Even ignoring that, the Ukraine would be a seriously expensive - almost back-breaking given the current recession Russia is in - acquisition, even if only partially, as simply bringing up Ukrainian civil servants to Russian pay and pension levels would require a massive allocation of the budget.

Integrating Crimea alone (2 million people) already requires 2.8 billion in new spending for the Russian budget.

In 5-10 years with heavy investment and decent management, the Ukrainian economy might well be something promising. But that would require a very serious commitment and taxpayers at home may not be too happy about it as they naturally expect government investment to be directed first at building and improving their own economy and standards of living.