Ukraine

[Julianna]

Not our problem, the US has enough concerns. We are not the police of the world. When the folks in the Ukraine get tired, they will fight for themselves, like we did with the British. We no longer have the money, resources to get involved in other countries wars.

 

[gilliam]

Yeah and which one of those countries were ever annexed to America? (None!!!)

Mexico (that is how TX, AZ, NM came to be)

 

[gilliam]

Putin said what about Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, he said its a double standard.

Putin isn’t convincing anyone

 

[Vouthon]

Mexico (that is how TX, AZ, NM came to be)

I don’t recall Gary mentioning Mexico. He was speaking about recent conflicts.

Of course, “Manifest Destiny” was wrong and expansionist. America was simply imitating the Old World colonial powers in its own neighbourhood. This is the 21st century, not the 19th. I was making the point that of America’s 3 recent conflicts (two of which I consider personally to have been unjustified) they were all fought in faraway places relative to the North American continent and not for territorially expansionist reasons. Russia stands in contrast to this.

 

[Tomdstone]

I don’t recall Gary mentioning Mexico.

Well, didn’t the USA President James Polk grab Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and western Colorado from Mexico in 1846? Was it right for the USA to take this land from Mexico?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Putin isn’t convincing anyone

He doesn’t need to convince a lot of people from a dead start. The left in this country and a fair number of libertarians already believe what he says about the U.S. “Hypocrisy”, he knows, is the only sin left (other than smoking and MMGW denying) in the mind of the media elites in the west.

I’m sure Putin is having a lot of fun manipulating westerners. He puts on a “holy Joe” mask and wins hearts and minds among traditionalists. He condemns “U.S. interventionism” and the left and many libertarians swoon.

Meanwhile, John Kerry is in Kiev telling Ukrainians how much we believe in freedom, over their dead bodies if it comes to that. Obama is wondering when Valerie Jarrett is going to tell him what to say on TV. Valerie Jarrett is calling people at the UN, none of whom truly care and half of whom are already bribed by somebody to posture one way or the other.

And Putin’s unmarked “Rodina jihadis” are romping around Crimea while the Ukrainian government wonders just who is loyal to whom among their own soldiery.

Putin is surely enjoying this.

 

[Miserissima]

Rodina jihadis! Thanks for that bittersweet laugh.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well, didn’t the USA President James Polk grab Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and western Colorado from Mexico in 1846? Was it right for the USA to take this land from Mexico?

Actually, it didn’t happen that way.

Texas, north of San Antonio (and sometimes south of it) was actually “grabbed” from the Comanches and Kiowa, who had previously “grabbed” it from the Apaches. In the process, northern Mexico was saved from Comanche devastation by the Texans, who had been invited in by Mexico. Well, part of the Texas coast was “grabbed” by Texans from a cannibal Indian tribe.

California was "grabbed’ from the Russians, Brits, some Indians and from Mexico.

Utah, Nevada and Colorado were “grabbed” from various Indian tribes. Mexico didn’t rule any of that, and certainly didn’t populate it. In any event, Utah was “grabbed” first by the Mormons, who later entered the U.S. voluntarily.

Arizona was “grabbed” to a degree from Mexico, but largely from Indian tribes, including the Apaches who had been driven there by the Comanches who had previously “grabbed” Texas and part of Colorado.

In any event, Mexico “grabbed” what it had and what it only claimed to have “grabbed”, from Spain. Spain never occupied or populated much of it, any more than Mexico did.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

He doesn’t need to convince a lot of people from a dead start. The left in this country and a fair number of libertarians already believe what he says about the U.S. “Hypocrisy”, he knows, is the only sin left (other than smoking and MMGW denying) in the mind of the media elites in the west.

I’m sure Putin is having a lot of fun manipulating westerners. He puts on a “holy Joe” mask and wins hearts and minds among traditionalists. He condemns “U.S. interventionism” and the left and many libertarians swoon.

Meanwhile, John Kerry is in Kiev telling Ukrainians how much we believe in freedom, over their dead bodies if it comes to that. Obama is wondering when Valerie Jarrett is going to tell him what to say on TV. Valerie Jarrett is calling people at the UN, none of whom truly care and half of whom are already bribed by somebody to posture one way or the other.

And Putin’s unmarked “Rodina jihadis” are romping around Crimea while the Ukrainian government wonders just who is loyal to whom among their own soldiery.

Putin is surely enjoying this.

It is impossible to refute the fact that our stated reasons for opposing what the Russians are doing in Crimea are hypocritical. We’ve spent the last 60 years toppling governments, some democratically elected, and invading nations for purely geopolitical, ideological, and economic reasons. The Russians are no different. If we’re going to oppose it then we should at least be honest about the reason(s) why. That said, Crimea became an autonomous region from Ukraine for a reason and the people who live there are entitled to the same choice of destiny as those in Kiev who overthrew Yanukovych. It seems to me that they have made their choice.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is impossible to refute the fact that our stated reasons for opposing what the Russians are doing in Crimea are hypocritical. We’ve spent the last 60 years toppling governments, some democratically elected, and invading nations for purely geopolitical, ideological, and economic reasons. The Russians are no different. If we’re going to oppose it then we should at least be honest about the reason(s) why.

Confirmation that the only sin now recognized in the west is “hypocrisy”. Strange as it may seem to some, the U.S. has spent the last 60 years doing a lot more things than invading countries. One of them has been leaving other countries. Of course, sometimes that hasn’t worked out too well, like in Iraq that we turned over to the war between Al Quaeda and Iran. And, after all, we left Al Quaeda and Iran to fight over Syria without setting a single boot on the ground, so no “hypocrisy” in that default. But okay, if you would bring Saddam Hussein back to kill another million people, your preference is noted. He probably isn’t coming back, though.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Putin has the west figured out very well. He pretends to be a Christian in order to impress Christians, and he knows the left hates America and he knows he can justify anything he does by giving them a reason to get into a high dudgeon…not over his actions, but over America’s.

He has to be making the halls of the Kremlin shake with his laughter. His stripping his soldiers of insignia has to have been conjured up by him and his cronies over perhaps the third shot of vodka, just for amusement. “This will confuse and divide them even more. They’ll know, but they’ll not want to know. Then they’ll get all dyspeptic over a violation of the Geneva Convention…but by whom? Ha ha ha. Another shot there Vasily, if you please.”

Got to go now, guys. Enjoy!

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Confirmation that the only sin now recognized in the west is “hypocrisy”.

Or that we’re walking around with a giant plank in our eye.

…the left hates America…

Thats a tired meme.

He has to be making the halls of the Kremlin shake with his laughter. His stripping his soldiers of insignia has to have been conjured up by him and his cronies over perhaps the third shot of vodka, just for amusement. “This will confuse and divide them even more. They’ll know, but they’ll not want to know. Then they’ll get all dyspeptic over a violation of the Geneva Convention…but by whom? Ha ha ha. Another shot there Vasily, if you please.”

At least be constructive with your criticisms. What do you expect us to do about it? Occupy Ukraine and stand our troops toe-to-toe with the Russians to see who blinks?

 

[on_the_hill]

Well, didn’t the USA President James Polk grab Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and western Colorado from Mexico in 1846? Was it right for the USA to take this land from Mexico?

You cannot excuse one sin by citing another. Or something like that. If my friend sins, I can’t also sin and claim it’s o.k. because he did it. It’s probably in the CCC.

And if I recall from 7th grade social studies, we paid for some of it through the Gadsen Purchase.

 

[Miserissima]

You cannot excuse one sin by citing another. Or something like that. If my friend sins, I can’t also sin and claim it’s o.k. because he did it. It’s probably in the CCC.

And if I recall from 7th grade social studies, we paid for some of it through the Gadsen Purchase.

Super, super response. :clapping:

 

[on_the_hill]

He has to be making the halls of the Kremlin shake with his laughter. His stripping his soldiers of insignia has to have been conjured up by him and his cronies over perhaps the third shot of vodka, just for amusement. “This will confuse and divide them even more. They’ll know, but they’ll not want to know. Then they’ll get all dyspeptic over a violation of the Geneva Convention…but by whom? Ha ha ha. Another shot there Vasily, if you please.”

Got to go now, guys. Enjoy!

“Of course, Comrade Putin! Na zdrowie!”

“Na zdrowie, comrade? Na zdrowie?”

“I, er…Comrade! Nothing but a slip of the tongue. Truly, I didn’t mean it.”

“Did you hear that, comrades? He says, ‘na zdrowie’ … like a Pole.”

“Comrade Putin–It is too much vodka I drink, I–”

“Like a Pole!” Putin spits on the ground. “Tell me, Vasily. Tell me where you were last weekend.”

“Last weekend, comrade?”

“Yes, Vasily. Last weekend.”

“At my dacha, comrade. Of course. As you instructed us. A private time for meditation and prayer before we solved The Crimea question.”

“Then you weren’t visiting your mistress in Wroclaw? Because I was sure that was you in the video walking up to her flat.”

Putin pulls out a revolver and shots Vasily in the forehead. “Pić z Bogiem, Vasily,” Putin says as he downs his shot of vodka.

 

[gilliam]

From The Guardian: Here is a summary of the latest developments:

• Pro-Russian troops who had taken control of the Belbek air base in the Crimea region fired warning shots into the air as around 300 Ukrainian soldiers, who previously manned the airfield, demanded their jobs back this morning, AP reports. About a dozen Russian soldiers several warning shots into the air and said they would shoot the unarmed Ukrainians if they continued to march toward them.

• **Vladimir Putin has ordered tens of thousands of Russian troops participating in military exercises near Ukraine’s border to return to their bases. **It suggested that the Russian president may be heeding calls to de-escalate.

• Russian financial markets rebounded after sharp falls on Monday, with stock indexes up more than 4% in early trading before slipping back slightly, though still up on the day. The Moscow stock market fell 10.8% on Monday, wiping nearly $60 billion off the value of Russian firms.

• A supposed Russian ultimatum for two Ukrainian warships to surrender or be seized passed without action from either side, as the two ships remained anchored in the Crimean port of Sevastopol. Russian defence ministry spokesman Vladimir Anikin said late on Monday that no ultimatum had been issued.

•** The US secretary of state, John Kerry, is on his way to Kiev to meet with the new Ukrainian leadership. **The interim government has accused Moscow of declaring war.

 

[Miserissima]

It is impossible to refute the fact that our stated reasons for opposing what the Russians are doing in Crimea are hypocritical. We’ve spent the last 60 years toppling governments, some democratically elected, and invading nations for purely geopolitical, ideological, and economic reasons. The Russians are no different. If we’re going to oppose it then we should at least be honest about the reason(s) why. That said, Crimea became an autonomous region from Ukraine for a reason and the people who live there are entitled to the same choice of destiny as those in Kiev who overthrew Yanukovych. It seems to me that they have made their choice.

Hm. Not sure how hypocritical. We didn’t go in to a lot of those places for the land, but for the economic benefit. The similarities, though, is that we billed the US as champions of the people (Desert Storm One and the Kuwaiti liberation – while the Kuwaiti Emirs went on vacation, but I digress).

Should Crimea have the option to be autonomous the same way (by progression) Maine would vote to secede? Or Southern California to align with Mexico? Or can lower Florida become “The Republic New Cuba?”

I’m not being sarcastic and these are not rhetorical questions. I struggle with national identity versus democratic sovereignty.

In the case of Crimea, I can see another Putin-esque puppet government in place, with deportation of “ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars” which is equally unfair.

As I said earlier, Crimea is a stocked pond with ethnic Russians on Ukrainian land. This causes me to pause and reflect:

There are young people born long after 1954 in the * Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea, * who were not of age to remember the hardships under direct Soviet oppression, who have been raised with different values from the rest of the country. (They remind me of the Bright Young People of the UK after WWII in this sense.) They are, for all intents and purposes, Russian without citizenship. To keep Ukraine whole, these folks should be expatriated to Russia. To make Crimea an autonomous nation, they have to “elect” their own neo Soviet ringer version of Yakunovich.

I’ve written too much; I’m at a loss.

 

[Miserissima]

“Of course, Comrade Putin! Na zdrowie!”

“Na zdrowie, comrade? Na zdrowie?”

“I, er…Comrade! Nothing but a slip of the tongue. Truly, I didn’t mean it.”

“Did you hear that, comrades? He says, ‘na zdrowie’ … like a Pole.”

“Comrade Putin–It is too much vodka I drink, I–”

“Like a Pole!” Putin spits on the ground. "Tell me, Vasily.

And that is what is behind the suppression of the Ukrainian language and therefore, culture.

I’m re opening old wounds by saying this but the compulsory Russian classes in Ukrainian schools neglected to teach idiomatic speech and sometoimes, correct pronunciation in order to mark the Ukrainian as “the other.”

Incidentally, my younger child is named Vasily, so thank you, on the hill, as this reminded me of my father’s stories…(his name, too, was Vasily).

 

[M-Dent]

•** The US secretary of state, John Kerry, is on his way to Kiev to meet with the new Ukrainian leadership. .**

http://www.trbimg.com/img-53164b40/turbine/la-ol-ukraine-us-aid-package-bad-idea-20140304-001/600

 

[McCartney]

•** The US secretary of state, John Kerry, is on his way to Kiev to meet with the new Ukrainian leadership. **The interim government has accused Moscow of declaring war.

Is that where chicken comes from - Kiev?

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Hm. Not sure how hypocritical. We didn’t go in to a lot of those places for the land, but for the economic benefit. The similarities, though, is that we billed the US as champions of the people (Desert Storm One and the Kuwaiti liberation – while the Kuwaiti Emirs went on vacation, but I digress). Should Crimea have the option to be autonomous the same way (by progression) Maine would vote to secede? Or Southern California to align with Mexico? Or can lower Florida become “The Republic New Cuba?”
I’m not being sarcastic and these are not rhetorical questions. I struggle with national identity versus democratic sovereignty.

Crimea has been a self-governing autonomous region for many years. They have their own parliament, prime minister, and judiciary. The relationship between the two is not unlike that of Puerto Rico and the United States or Hong Kong and China.

In the case of Crimea, I can see another Putin-esque puppet government in place, with deportation of “ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars” which is equally unfair.

As I said earlier, Crimea is a stocked pond with ethnic Russians on Ukrainian land. This causes me to pause and reflect:

There are young people born long after 1954 in the * Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea, * who were not of age to remember the hardships under direct Soviet oppression, who have been raised with different values from the rest of the country. (They remind me of the Bright Young People of the UK after WWII in this sense.) They are, for all intents and purposes, Russian without citizenship. To keep Ukraine whole, these folks should be expatriated to Russia. To make Crimea an autonomous nation, they have to “elect” their own neo Soviet ringer version of Yakunovich.

I’ve written too much; I’m at a loss.

On the other hand, if our foreign policy motivations are solely based around some inalienable right of a people to shape their own destiny, why should we care about Russia maintaining the status quo in Crimea? Why impose the choices of the people in Kiev on an autonomous region which clearly does not want to go down the same path?