Ukraine

[GaryTaylor]

The Baltics worry. :sad_yes:

cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/03/09/exp-sotu-crowley-estonia-latvia-lithuania-russia-ukraine-ambassador.cnn.html

 

[Peter_Plato]

You are mistaken. Observations along with statements made by Vlad Putin, bear out my Hypothesis. That you think any super power will lead humanity is curious in and of itself. But as we have no example of Russia serving any role other than a bellicose bully.

Your mistaken as to the direction of the west as well. If anything, we have never been farther away from socialism than we are today. Examples of austerity measures, and foolish tax breaks for the wealthy are everywhere. Poverty remains high, as profits for corporations are unmatched in history. But this is for another thread I think.

ATB

Corporate power has replaced the central communist or socialist regimes of the past 100 years as the dominant broker with regards to public policy, but western style capitalism is no less atheistic nor any more concerned about the welfare of individual citizens than the likes of Lenin, Stalin or Chairman Mao were in the past. They are just less overt about their methods and underlying ideology than Marxist ideologues.

 

[TEPO]

That you think any super power will lead humanity is curious in and of itself.

Oh, no that’s not my POV -it’s quite the opposite in fact. I only made that comparison after you gave the three rules that should be placed on Russia. But, probably that’s not your POV then either.

In any case, I’m not a supporter of Russia, the EU, or the American globalist neo-con movement.

 

[pepipop]

Corporate power has replaced the central communist or socialist regimes of the past 100 years as the dominant broker with regards to public policy, but western style capitalism is no less atheistic nor any more concerned about the welfare of individual citizens than the likes of Lenin, Stalin or Chairman Mao were in the past. They are just less overt about their methods and underlying ideology than Marxist ideologues.

 

[GaryTaylor]

In any case, I’m not a supporter of Russia, the EU, or the American globalist neo-con movement.

All equally alarming, as mentioned just less overt. The later is just more sublime to assure its fatal ending under the title of equal rights which in truth isn’t very equal, rather exclusive I would suggest. Effectively divided the country on racial and religious lines among with many other areas which seem rather foreign to my Catholic American thinking, basically we have a new animal in our midst.

 

[pepipop]

The Fascists are not in power in the Ukraine, that there are some fascists does not mean the whole government is, moreover, we should not assume that the word “fascist” is by default synonymous with Neo-Nazis:

The Economist is a respected Canadian magazine, wherein the article I cited was written the same day (March 8) your article was written by Global Research.

Possibly then you’ll believe a British government’s documentary, by the BBC?

Neo Nazi threat in the New Ukraine.

youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY

 

[TEPO]

The Baltics worry. :sad_yes:

cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/03/09/exp-sotu-crowley-estonia-latvia-lithuania-russia-ukraine-ambassador.cnn.html

Gary, all those countries interviewed by CNN are already members of the EU… It’s their job to say what they said. Right?

Besides, if Russia tried anything with any of them it would instantly be war.

 

[TEPO]

All equally alarming, as mentioned just less overt. The later is just more sublime to assure its fatal ending under the title of equal rights which in truth isn’t very equal, rather exclusive I would suggest. Effectively divided the country on racial and religious lines among with many other areas which seem rather foreign to my Catholic American thinking, basically we have a new animal in our midst.

…

 

[Vouthon]

The Baltics worry. :sad_yes:

cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/03/09/exp-sotu-crowley-estonia-latvia-lithuania-russia-ukraine-ambassador.cnn.html

I would be worrying too. Putin’s Russia bears striking similarities to 20th century Germany between the years 1914-1939, at least in its emerging foreign policy and in the fascist elements of its parliament such as the LDPR.

Consider the theories of Alexsandr Dugin, acclaimed lecturer at the Academy of the General Staff in Moscow and the Institute for Strategic Research (also the founder of the so-called “Eurasian Movement” and Party, to which many prominent associates of Putin belong):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin (Russian: Алекса́ндр Ге́льевич Ду́гин, born 7 January 1962) is a Russian political scientist, traditionalist, and one of the most popular ideologists of the creation of a Eurasian empire that would be against the “North Atlantic interests”. He is known for his proximity to fascism,[1][2][3][4] and had close ties to the Kremlin and Russian military.[5] He was the leading organizer of National Bolshevik Party, National Bolshevik Front, and Eurasia Party. His political activities are directed toward restoration of the Russian Empire through partitioning of the former Soviet republics, such as Georgia and Ukraine, and unification with Russian-speaking territories, especially Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.[6][7] He is known for the book Foundations of Geopolitics…

The Eurasia Party, later Eurasia Movement, was officially recognized by the Ministry of Justice on May 31, 2001.[5] The Eurasia Party claims support by some military circles and by leaders of the Orthodox Christian faith in Russia, and the party hopes to play a key role in attempts to resolve the Chechen problem, with the objective of setting the stage for Dugin’s dream of a Russian strategic alliance with European and Middle Eastern states, primarily Iran. Dugin’s ideas, particularly those on “a Turkic-Slavic alliance in the Eurasian sphere” have recently become popular among certain nationalistic circles in Turkey, most notably among alleged members of the Ergenekon network, which is the subject of a high-profile trial (on charges of conspiracy). Dugin also advocates for a Russo-Arab alliance.[11]

“ In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia, remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution. … The new Eurasian empire will be constructed on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us. This common civilizational impulse will be the basis of a political and strategic union. ”

—The Basics of Geopolitics (1997)

He has criticized the “Euro-Atlantic” involvement in the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election as a scheme to create a “cordon sanitaire” around Russia, much like the French and British attempt post-World War I…

In 2005 he announced the creation of an anti-Orange youth front to fight similar threats to Russia. The Eurasian Youth Union created and sponsored by Dugin was accused of vandalism and extremist activities. The organization was banned in Ukraine by the courts and Alexander Dugin was declared persona non grata due to his anti-Ukrainian activities.[12][13] He was deported back to Russia when he arrived at Simferopol International Airport in June 2007.[14]

Before war broke out between Russia and Georgia in 2008, Dugin visited South Ossetia and predicted, “Our troops will occupy the Georgian capital Tbilisi, the entire country, and perhaps even Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula, which is historically part of Russia, anyway.”[15] Afterwards he said Russia should “not stop at liberating South Ossetia but should move further,” and "we have to do something similar in Ukraine"

With these kinds of ideas floating around the upper echelons of power in the Kremlin, the future for small Eastern European countries does not look bright. I had hoped that Putin was more sane than these people and would be a more “normal” dictator (that is a hard-handed thug worrying only about his own grip on power but not concerncing himself with expansionism and ideology). However with the 2008 land-grab from Georgia and the annexation of Crimea, the first two steps in the Eurasian Movement’s plan for the Eurasian Empire, when added to Putin’s stated desire to resurrect the USSR in the form of a Eurasian Union (sans Communism), I am beginning to truly worry about the ideology that is prevalent in Moscow.

What do you reckon will happen to Catholics in this planned “Eurasian Union” that, if it ever became a reality, would hold swat over millions of Catholics in the various countries that dreamers like Zhirinovsky and Dugin want to annex? Catholicism is seen as an “alien” religion within Russian society and thus is the only major religion not recognised as a valid faith.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary, all those countries interviewed by CNN are already members of the EU… It’s their job to say what they said. Right?

Besides, if Russia tried anything with any of them it would instantly be war.

They all seem reluctantly committed to the party line. Still talking past each other and not to each other. And this is also why Putin is moving in a slow calculated method. He could have annexed Crimea by day one or two. He’s just as worried as everyone else.

 

[pepipop]

Poland, for one (aside from the gadflies of Palikot’s gang, the consensus seems staunchly pro-life). Hungary, too. Croatia, of course, recently voted against SSM.

Which is what frustrates me about how some American Catholics here and elsewhere seem to think the only way to stop the barbarism is to side with Putin. There are countries between Minsk and the Oder, you know.

Why assume that anyone on this board is ‘siding’ with Putin. We’re shown facts about a world situation and we decide accordingly. The Ukrainian government is anti-Russian, also proven by the fact they attempted to stop Russian being an official 2nd language, in their FIRST week. 98% of Crimeans speak Russian with little or no Ukrainian. Hence do you think the new government care about Crimea? Putin was invited in, by Crimea, to help Russians - and no doubt to solder a good deal in relation to the black sea.

I personally side with what I think is fair and just in a situation, not who it is. Each world situation is treated differently and analysed according to the information available.

 

[Vouthon]

I personally side with what I think is fair and just in a situation, not who it is. Each world situation is treated differently and analysed according to the information available.

True.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Sorry all, I haven’t followed this thread the last couple of days (kinda busy) but I just wanted to say to those interested right now Eastern Time North America:

60 Minutes on CBS is going to have a segment on Ukraine and the Maidan (it’s the second story)

Later in Western Time Zone.

Andrew 7:11 Eastern Time, Sunday March 9

 

[josie_L]

Why assume that anyone on this board is ‘siding’ with Putin. We’re shown facts about a world situation and we decide accordingly. The Ukrainian government is anti-Russian, also proven by the fact they attempted to stop Russian being an official 2nd language, in their FIRST week. 98% of Crimeans speak Russian with little or no Ukrainian. Hence do you think the new government care about Crimea? **Putin was invited in, by Crimea, to help Russians - and no doubt to solder a good deal in relation to the black sea. **

I personally side with what I think is fair and just in a situation, not who it is. Each world situation is treated differently and analysed according to the information available.

Because you seem to be evading the obvious, i.e., I have stated multiple times that the new Crimean government was put together by armed men more than likely of Russian ethnicity. That this new government then calls Putin for help seems a little too convenient, don 't you think?? Moreover, why oust the old Crimean government, if it had ties to Yanukovych, and if it was a government elected by the CRIMEANS? As such, Prime minister Aksyonov is not representative of the people in Crimea, in fact, I’m quite convinced he is Putin’s puppet.

**
“If six months ago someone would have told me that Aksyonov would become prime minister, I would have laughed,” said Valentina Tsamar, a prominent Simferopol journalist with the TV channel Chernomorskaya.

It was a sudden rise to power for Aksyonov, who didn’t go into politics until 2009 when he united three pro-Russian organizations into the Russian Unity party**.

The party reached out to Crimea’s large Russian-speaking population with political advertisements that compared anti-Yanukovych protesters to Nazis and promised a golden age for Crimea replete with vineyards, jobs and well-off tourists.

He also insisted he had no intention of splitting off from Ukraine. Just three weeks ago, he told The Associated Press in an interview that the party "has never wanted Crimea to separate from Ukraine."

But the advertisements did little good. Russian Unity’s rallies were notable for their paltry turnouts, and it took just 4 percent of the votes in the 2010 elections.

huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/08/sergey-aksyonov_n_4927039.html

 

[josie_L]

With these kinds of ideas floating around the upper echelons of power in the Kremlin, the future for small Eastern European countries does not look bright. I had hoped that Putin was more sane than these people and would be a more “normal” dictator (that is a hard-handed thug worrying only about his own grip on power but not concerncing himself with expansionism and ideology). However with the 2008 land-grab from Georgia and the annexation of Crimea, the first two steps in the Eurasian Movement’s plan for the Eurasian Empire, when added to Putin’s stated desire to resurrect the USSR in the form of a Eurasian Union (sans Communism), I am beginning to truly worry about the ideology that is prevalent in Moscow.

To continue with what you’ve posted, I’d like to add this:

When Mr Putin came to power in 2000, he was guided by the post-Soviet idea that Russia was converging with the West, albeit slowly and on its own terms. Membership of clubs such as the G8 mattered to him. This no longer seems to be the case. He appears to be driven by the idea that Russia is fundamentally different and morally superior. The fact that the Russia elite, dominated by former KGB men, is corrupt and cynical only strengthens the need for such an ideology: extraordinary corruption requires extraordinary justification.

Maria Snegovaya, a scholar at Columbia University, argues that Mr Putin’s thinking is influenced by the writings of Ivan Ilyin, an émigré Russian philosopher of the first half of the 20th century, whose grave he has visited and whose works he often cites. “We know that Western nations don’t understand and don’t tolerate Russia’s identity…They are going to divide the united Russian ‘broom’ into twigs to break these twigs one by one, ” Ilyin wrote. A book of his essays, along with the works of like-minded philosophers, was given by the Kremlin as Christmas reading to its apparatchiks. Another favourite is “Third Empire: The Russia that Ought to Be”, a Utopian fantasy set in 2054 that features a ruler named Vladimir II, who integrates eastern Ukraine into a new Russian Union.

In this world view, Ukraine’s revolutionary bid to escape to the West is a betrayal of Slavic brotherhood. Russia’s attempts to destabilise and split Ukraine are driven by a desire to “save” what it still considers to be part of the Russian world from Western annexation. This is the Kremlin’s way of punishing a traitor, demonstrating strength to the West and to its own population and preventing the emergence of an alternative civilisation on its territory.

Eastern promises

Mr Putin may not wish, or be able, formally to annex Crimea, and he says that Russia has no plans to do so. More likely he intends to use it as a destabilising factor and leverage for splitting Ukraine further. The ultimate goal may be turning it into a federation where tight Russian control of the eastern parts stops the country as a whole from moving towards the West.

Repeating the Crimean scenario in the east of the country would be harder. One reason is the reluctance of local elites, including the oligarchs, police chiefs and criminal bosses, to cede their territory to their Russian counterparts. The interim government in Kiev has already appointed powerful tycoons to run the vulnerable areas in eastern and central Ukraine.

Russia is already sending tremors through the industrial east. In Donetsk, the Ukrainian and Russian flags have alternated atop the local administrative offices. The pro-Russian crowds are warmed up by agents provocateurs and supported by “volunteers” from across the Russian border. Russian social networks have been used to recruit volunteers to go to Kharkiv, Donetsk and Odessa for “moral support” and to participate in anti-Ukrainian rallies. “We need men aged 18-45 who are already in Ukraine, or are ready to go,” says a page called Civil Defence of Ukraine. “Don’t take anything…with you. Remember you are just a tourist”.

There are also strong rumours of the involvement of the Russian security services and forces loyal to Mr Yanukovych. On March 3rd a 1,000-strong crowd of pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk stormed the building of the local administration and nominated as governor Pavel Gubarev, a marginal politician who was previously unknown in Donetsk. Mr Gubarev is an activist of the Eurasian Youth Movement, a Russian nationalist outfit set up after the Orange revolution of 2004 to counter the spread of Western ideas. Two days later Mr Gubarev was pushed out and the Kiev-appointed governor, the oligarch Sergei Taruta, walked in.

On March 5th Mr Gubarev’s mob gathered again, 2,000 strong, some of them aggressive looking young men, many of them older. They shouted “Russia, Russia” as second-world-war anthems called on the Soviet country to rise against fascists. They retook the building only to be removed again the following day.

Their “enemies” gathered a few hundred metres away by the church of St Michael the Archangel: largely Russian-speaking, mostly young and cosmopolitan. Yulia Kubanova, a 28-year-old who works in advertising, held a banner saying “Ukraine is United”. “I never asked whether I was ethnically Ukrainian or Russian,” she said. “I am a Ukrainian…I am proud of my country where people know what dignity is.” Ms Kubanova had been to lay flowers by for those who died in Kiev. A middle-aged woman attacked her: “She called me a Nazi and a whore.”

economist.com/news/briefing/21598744-having-occupied-crimea-russia-stirring-up-trouble-eastern-ukraine-end

 

[pepipop]

Because you seem to be evading the obvious, i.e., I have stated multiple times that the new Crimean government was put together by armed men more than likely of Russian ethnicity. That this new government then calls Putin for help seems a little too convenient, don 't you think?? Moreover, why oust the old Crimean government, if it had ties to Yanukovych, and if it was a government elected by the CRIMEANS? As such, Prime minister Aksyonov is not representative of the people in Crimea, in fact, I’m quite convinced he is Putin’s puppet.

I have lived in a country whose political antics were not that different, where people could be ousted so as to get things done. Not because the people ousted were in the wrong, but ‘they’ may not wish to rock the boat, i.e. the previous Crimean government. I don’t know what went on or why, and nor does anyone else but it’s all in keeping with the political ‘game-play’.

The whole thing started due to the Ukrainian government being overthrown through violence and an illegal neo-nazi, anti-Russian government put in place - so quid pro quo.

If the Ukrainians had not overthrown their government and replaced it with an anti-Russian one, ‘Putin would not be there’.That was the main catalyst lit by EU/USA intervention. I posted, days ago, about how Yanukovich, in September 2013, stood for 3 hours and fought with his parliament to chose the EU and not Russia. If he hadn’t bothered doing this they would have chosen Russia and most likely the riots would not have occurred. The rioting was inflamed because he ‘changed’ his mind from the EU back to Russia, which in any society would come across as extremely indecisive and very poor leadership.

 

[josie_L]

I have lived in a country whose political antics were not that different, where people could be ousted so as to get things done. Not because the people ousted were in the wrong, but ‘they’ may not wish to rock the boat, i.e. the previous Crimean government. I don’t know what went on or why, and nor does anyone else but it’s all in keeping with the political ‘game-play’.

Were those people ousted while under foreign occupation and replaced with people who would favour that country?

The whole thing started due to the Ukrainian government being overthrown through violence and an illegal neo-nazi, anti-Russian government put in place - so quid pro quo.

No, the whole thing didn’t start with the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, it started with a corrupted government led by an even more corrupted leader whose political machinations led millions onto the streets of Kyiv. The fact that you want to reduce this event to mere neo-Nazi/anti Russian sentiment, begs the question, are all those millions of Ukrainians just radicals?

If the Ukrainians had not overthrown their government and replaced it with an anti-Russian one, ‘Putin would not be there’.That was the main catalyst lit by EU/USA intervention. I posted, days ago, about how Yanukovich, in September 2013, stood for 3 hours and fought with his parliament to chose the EU and not Russia. If he hadn’t bothered doing this they would have chosen Russia and most likely the riots would not have occurred. The rioting was inflamed because he ‘changed’ his mind from the EU back to Russia, which in any society would come across as extremely indecisive and very poor leadership.

The new government attempted to restrict the Russian language which was wrong, but if they are as fanatically anti-Russian as you make them out to be why did they repeal the law. And this before Russian occupation? And another thing the law would not only have restricted “Russian” but other languages as well:

Immediately after the removal of President Viktor Yanukovych from power on Feb. 22, the Ukrainian Parliament repealed a controversial law passed in 2012 that allowed the use of “regional languages” – including Russian, Hungarian, Romanian and Tatar – in courts and certain government functions in areas of the country where such speakers constituted at least 10 percent of the population. (In 1991, in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union, the newly independent state of Ukraine established Ukrainian as its sole official language.)

ibtimes.com/watch-your-tongue-language-controversy-one-fundamental-conflicts-ukraine-1559069

One also has to question why Yanukovych did such a volte face with regards to the EU, was it all for show that he argued for the EU, i.e., to show his people that he was not as pro-Putin as they believed him to be, I don’t know, but I do know this, he is a duplicitous man, and a weak one too, i.e., one that could be easily manipulated by greed.

 

[MugenOne]

Russia has deliberately sunk three of its own ships to block Ukrainian navy vessels entering a lake off the Black Sea, officers say, highlighting Moscow’s determination to wear down the morale of Kiev’s forces in Crimea.

The Ochakov – a Soviet-era warship decommissioned in 2011 and set to be sold for scrap – was towed to the entrance to Lake Donuzlav on Crimea’s western coast from the Russian base at Sevastopol on Thursday and blown up.

news.yahoo.com/blocked-sunken-russian-ships-ukraines-navy-stays-defiant-131009479.html

 

[esieffe]

Many of the economies are intimately linked to Russia, such as Germany, it makes it an awkward situation in a very difficult economic period and for Russia also. You can’t expect these interconnected countries to cut off their nose in spite of their face.

Good point.

I don’t know if it has been discussed,… I have been away for a few days, but there was an article discussing Russia’s stock market tanking over this situation and how Russia’s billionaire club was quite unhappy about the financial beating they were taking over the Ukraine impasse.

Cold war Soviets did not have to worry about market fluctuations… Russia does. The US has been asked about stepping up natural gas exports. It should be interesting to see if the “world-wide 1%” has the power to force a quick end to this situation.

 

[gilliam]

Condoleezza Rice:

The longer-term task is to answer Putin’s statement about Europe’s post-Cold War future. He is saying that Ukraine will never be free to make its own choices — a message meant to reverberate in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states — and that Russia has special interests it will pursue at all costs. For Putin, the Cold War ended “tragically.” He will turn the clock back as far as intimidation through military power, economic leverage and Western inaction will allow.

After Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, the United States sent ships into the Black Sea, airlifted Georgian military forces from Iraq back to their home bases and sent humanitarian aid. Russia was denied its ultimate goal of overthrowing the democratically elected government, an admission made to me by the Russian foreign minister. The United States and Europe could agree on only a few actions to isolate Russia politically…

This time has to be different. Putin is playing for the long haul, cleverly exploiting every opening he sees. So must we, practicing strategic patience if he is to be stopped. Moscow is not immune from pressure. This is not 1968, and Russia is not the Soviet Union. The Russians need foreign investment; oligarchs like traveling to Paris and London, and there are plenty of ill-gotten gains stored in bank accounts abroad; the syndicate that runs Russia cannot tolerate lower oil prices; neither can the Kremlin’s budget, which sustains subsidies toward constituencies that support Putin. Soon, North America’s bounty of oil and gas will swamp Moscow’s capacity. Authorizing the Keystone XL pipeline and championing natural gas exports would signal that we intend to do precisely that. And Europe should finally diversify its energy supply and develop pipelines that do not run through Russia.

washingtonpost.com/opinions/condoleezza-rice-will-america-heed-the-wake-up-call-of-ukraine/2014/03/07/cf087f74-a630-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html