Ukraine

[KyivAndrew]

Americans would never tolerate a President who upon assuming office made his family and friends (some of them from the criminal underworld) the richest people in the States and who would control 85% of the US GDP.

Americans would never tolerate a President who upon assuming power would go on to personally threaten the members of the US Supreme Court to do his bidding and thus destroy the division of powers.

Americans would never tolerate a President who upon assuming power would bribe members of Congress who belonged to the other party to join his for one million dollars each to form a congressional majority, and concomitantly threaten members of the other party.

Americans would never tolerate a President who upon assuming power created such a corrupt economy that millions of business owners and regular folks would emigrate en masse and flee the country.

Americans would never tolerate a President who would outlaw the freedom of assembly.

Americans would never tolerate a President who by hook and crook (imprisoning political opposition) would assure that no further free votes for the Presidency ever take place in the country.

Knowing Americans as freedom and liberty-loving people, I could only imagine what the reaction of Americans would be to such a President.

But this isn’t America we’re talking about, it’s Ukrainians, so they should be willing to put up with such a President. Unbelievable, and I am Ukrainian

 

[josie_L]

Yanukovych bolts, leaves a trail of evidence

WASHINGTON – It appears in his rush to get out of Kyiv, embattled Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych left behind quite a paper trail. Protesters arriving at his opulent estate, the Mezhyhirya, a kind of Swiss chalet-meets-Neverland Ranch about 15 kilometres from Kyiv, found hundreds pages of accounting files, receipts and dossiers on Yanukovych’s political opponents floating in a river. The incriminating records were apparently dumped there by whomever was last at the palace before Yanukovych fled for parts unknown, according to multiple reports on social media and in the Ukrainian press.

Protesters retrieved the documents from the water and set them out to dry in what was described as an airplane hangar. There, they were eagerly perused by journalists looking for evidence that would bolster the long-standing allegations of political and financial corruption by Yanukovych and his family.

The most intriguing piece of paper may be a receipt for a cash transfer of $12 million dated September 2010, about seven months after Yanukovych took office. It’s not clear who gave the money, or whether Yanukovych was the recipient. Radio Svoboda, a Russian news organization that bills itself as an alternative to state-controlled media, reported the receipt showed money unnamed “oligarchs” had given to Yanukovych, a claim that couldn’t be independently verified.

Also among the discarded files – some of which had pages torn out – were photographs and personal information about journalists and democracy activists opposed to the government. Alisa Ruban, the international secretary of the Democratic Alliance, an opposition group, said some of the photos showed members of her organization. There were also lists of “political and civil society activists who (sic) Yanukovych was scared of,” the group said on its Facebook page.

If the documents left behind are valid and were indeed thrown out by Yanukovych or his loyalists in an attempt to cover his political and financial tracks, they help to complete a picture of the paranoid splendour in which the Ukrainian leader lived. At the same time he was keeping tabs on political opponents, Yanukovych was also acquiring expensive works of art and paying carpenters $31 million for ornate woodwork at his colossal home. The property was once owned by the state, but Yanukovych recently “privatized” the house and the hundreds of hectares around it and turned it into his residence.

Ukrainian citizens spent much of the weekend wandering through the sprawling grounds of the Mezhyhirya as if it were a public park, gawking in wonder and shock at Yanukovych’s collection of amusements, which includes a fleet of luxury cars, a full-size pirate galleon moored on a man-made lake and a private zoo stocked with pigs, ostriches and an ostentation of peacocks.

Elsewhere in Kyiv, government officials were also reportedly trying to erase their paper trails as opposition forces took control of the capital and Yanukovych’s allies fled. Some government buildings were closed after reports officials in the public prosecutor’s office were destroying documents, and rumorus circulated that Yanukovych himself may have made off with a cache of files. The Financial Times quoted one protester in Kyiv saying opposition forces had secured a government building and were working with presidential guards to protect “secret documents” inside.

Yanukovych’s ties to Ukrainian businessmen and billionaires have long fuelled public suspicions he and his family were wrongly profiting from his control of the country. The ousted leader’s eldest son, Oleksander, is a dentist by training but has quickly become one of the richest men in Ukraine, in part through his ownership of businesses such as a bank that reportedly increased its earning by an implausible 20 times in the last three quarters of 2011 and is among the country’s biggest recipients of government contracts.

U.S. officials have described Yanukovych and his government as a kleptocracy in diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks. Given the ousted president’s penchant for record-keeping, it may be that among the soggy papers and printouts left behind at his plush pad is the evidence of his and his family’s corruption. No wonder he may have tried to drown it.

– Foreign Policy

Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition February 25, 2014

winnipegfreepress.com/world/yanukovych-bolts-leaves-a-trail-of-evidence-247009471.html

 

[HansTrappist]

Yanukovych bolts, leaves a trail of evidence

winnipegfreepress.com/world/yanukovych-bolts-leaves-a-trail-of-evidence-247009471.html

Again, if and when there is evidence that Yanukovych committed crimes, I am sure such evidence will be presented in a Court of Law.

And I wonder which is the worse crime: Political Corruption or a Violent Coup d’etat?

I also find it a bit rich that an alleged criminal - Yanukovych - is being branded a criminal by a convicted criminal - Yulia Tymoshenko.

I find it a bit ironic that the criminals who were seen burning, beating, maiming and murdering Ukrainian Police in the streets of Kiev now have the nerve to talk about Law and Order and the alleged crimes of Victor Yanukovych.

 

[Tomdstone]

AndSo every single parliamentarian (343) who impeached him of crimes/murder is wrong, i.e., they based their opinions on simple hearsay???

Unanimous voting is somewhat suspect. It is reminiscient of the communist times when votes were 100% one way or the other. You don’t have too much choice when there is a loaded machine gun pointed at your head. Of course, not everyone who demonstrated at Maidan is fascist or extreme right wing, and the current temporary president and prime minister seem to me to be honest and good people. (Although it seems like there should be some representation of the Eastern pro-Russian sector, which I don’t see). However, there is an extreme right wing element which is intent on suppressing those who oppose the EU, and it is possible for them to resort to violence against anyone opposing them.

 

[Miserissima]

There are reps of the proRussian sector. Didn’t you see the fistfights in Parliament before the upheaval?

 

[Seamus_L]

Personally, I have no great admiration for Viktor Yanukhovych, but what I find so disturbing about his overthrow, is the fact that this was a revolution organized and planned by outside forces, i,e the EU-USA, who very openly advocated the removal of a head of a sovereign state, and now the Western media would have us ignore the fact that this was planned in advance outside Ukraine, and then ignited by the country’s president blocking a trade agreement which then brought out a sea of EU flags and foreign politicians openly agitating at the barricades in Kiev.

 

[HansTrappist]

Personally, I have no great admiration for Viktor Yanukhovych, but what I find so disturbing about his overthrow, is the fact that this was a revolution organized and planned by outside forces, i,e the EU-USA, who very openly advocated the removal of a head of a sovereign state, and now the Western media would have us ignore the fact that this was planned in advance outside Ukraine, and then ignited by the country’s president blocking a trade agreement which then brought out a sea of EU flags and foreign politicians openly agitating at the barricades in Kiev.

Bingo!

Fellow Catholic and former CIA Chief of the Bin Laden Issue Station (aka “Alec Station”) touches on the Ukrainian situation in his latest op-ed “In Ukraine, EU and U.S. interventionists nearing the civil war they caused” non-intervention.com/

 

[gilliam]

Again, if and when there is evidence that Yanukovych committed crimes, I am sure such evidence will be presented in a Court of Law…

They are asking to bring him up on charges at the International Criminal Court. Of course you have to catch him first.

By the way, here is a column by one of those evil Americans people seem to like attacking:
latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-ukrainians-future-20140225,0,3906936.story#axzz2uUeUrIH6

 

[josie_L]

Unanimous voting is somewhat suspect. It is reminiscient of the communist times when votes were 100% one way or the other. You don’t have too much choice when there is a loaded machine gun pointed at your head. Of course, not everyone who demonstrated at Maidan is fascist or extreme right wing, and the current temporary president and prime minister seem to me to be honest and good people. (Although it seems like there should be some representation of the Eastern pro-Russian sector, which I don’t see). However, there is an extreme right wing element which is intent on suppressing those who oppose the EU, and it is possible for them to resort to violence against anyone opposing them.

There are extremes on both sides of the divide, or do you not see this?? Most Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe, in fact, Yanukovych was close to signing a deal with the E.U., and then suddenly, two days before signing the treaty he backs out. You don’t find this suspicious!

 

[josie_L]

They are asking to bring him up on charges at the International Criminal Court. Of course you have to catch him first.

By the way, here is a column by one of those evil Americans people seem to like attacking:
latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-ukrainians-future-20140225,0,3906936.story#axzz2uUeUrIH6

Thank you, Gilliam.

 

[Tomdstone]

Most Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe, in fact, Yanukovych was close to signing a deal with the E.U., and then suddenly, two days before signing the treaty he backs out. You don’t find this suspicious!

He backed out because the conditions the EU required were impossible for Ukraine to fulfill, so he knew that Ukraine could not expect to get any help from EU or IMF. He had no choice except to accept the generosity of Russia.
BTW, I don’t believe that the Russian speaking Ukrainians in the eastern sector want anything to do with the EU.

 

[josie_L]

I can see with my own eyes that they have many followers, as evidenced by the many violent men in the streets engaging in violent struggle with the Ukrainian Police. In America we call this kind of violent behavior against Police criminal behavior.

Oh, I see you were able to identify who the fascists were simply because they were being violent, I guess they should have cowered before the police who were beating and killing innocent protestors, and if they did use violence, who then initiated it?? Why are we to stand in judgement of people whose freedoms were being stripped away from them (they stood their ground because they had no choice, Yanukovych took away their democratic means of voicing their opinions and making a difference via the usual routes), i.e., Yanukovych was not a man acting on behalf of his people, but on behalf of himself and his cronies. The violence could have been prevented by Yanukovych, i.e., the protests were peaceful up until he sent out the Berkut and outlawed the demonstrations. He bears the responsibility (the UGCC, the UOC and parliament have stated this), i.e., he was the head of state, he issued the orders and outlawed the demonstrations, he initiated the violence, and he made the wrong choices.

I doubt any of them will dissipate given that it was their muscle and guns that deposed Yanukovych.

328 parliamentarians impeached the President.

I have yet to see any real evidence from reputable sources demonstrating these alleged crimes of Yanukovych. If such evidence existed it would have been presented to the Ukrainian Public and would have been presented to the Ukrainian Courts and I am sure all those 343 parliamentarians that you mention below would have acted on it.

It’s there you just choose to ignore it (simple research will reveal this to you). And here’s a comment I thought was quite apropos:

So if you conspiracy theories are true, millions of people protesting in Ukraine right now are all US “agents” too, right? Like it or not, Yanukovich opened fire on his own people. Like it or not, Yanukovich was the one to use force and violence against PEACEFUL protestors. There is NO EXCUSE for a leader to take such action, and the moment they attack their own people they have lost all legitimacy. If you think anyone is a “puppet” or “agent” of the USA, you would have to say that Yanukovich was, because his own decisions and actions are what has led to this. Politics is always complex, and of course there are influences here. The US and EU wants a friendly government, and Russia wants its own puppets in power. What matters is what the PEOPLE want, and what Yanukovich has done to his own people. Forget all the ******** about who is “controlling” who, the thing that is abundantly clear is that millions of Ukrainians want to be closer to Europe, they want Russia out, they want Yanukovich arrested for crimes against his own people, and THEY will decide what happens in their country.

kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html

I don’t know what they based their opinions on. Certainly not on any publicly available evidence. Maybe they based it on the barrel of a gun - you know, they same guns that were responsible for the violent overthrow of Yanukovych.

You mean they did not witness the commands he issued to initiate violence against the protestors???

No, they don’t for a moment believe the Western propaganda that says Yanukovych initiated the violence. In fact, they are upset that Yanukovych let a bunch of armed thugs, gangs and convicted, truly corrupt individuals like Yulia Tymoshenko take control of future of Ukraine.

Oh, I see the truly corrupt Yulia Tymoshenko who issued the orders to torture, beat and kill protestors.

 

[josie_L]

He backed out because the conditions the EU required were impossible for Ukraine to fulfill, so he knew that Ukraine could not expect to get any help from EU or IMF. He had no choice except to accept the generosity of Russia.
BTW, I don’t believe that the Russian speaking Ukrainians in the eastern sector want anything to do with the EU.

So, he realizes this two days before the signing, i.e., might it have had anything to do with the fact that he could not use the monies from the E.U. (with austerity measures attached) the way he could with the monies offered by the Russians. Oh and I found this:

Video footage released by Lithuania, holder of the EU presidency, showed an uncomfortable-looking Mr Yanukovich meeting Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, and Mr Barroso on Thursday night.

Ms Merkel can be heard telling Mr Yanukovich in English, “Nice to see you here. But we expected more.”

Mr Yanukovich is heard replying: “The economic situation in our country is very complicated . . . we had very big threats.”

“I wanted you to listen to me. I’ve been alone for three and a half years,” the Ukrainian president continues. “In very unequal conditions, with a very strong Russia, I was one on one.”

But EU officials on the margins of the Vilnius meeting began shifting blame for the failure to sign the Ukraine agreement from Russia on to Mr Yanukovich himself, saying the president had been too intent on playing Moscow off against Brussels.

“I think he didn’t really want to sign with either” the EU or Russia, one senior EU politician said. “He just wanted free money.”

ft.com/cms/s/0/2a1380b2-58de-11e3-9798-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2uUteNelE

 

[josie_L]

Here’s a greater explanation as to why Yanukovych didn’t sign the treaty:

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s decisive move came on Nov. 9. That day, after years of courtship, and several months of promises and threats, he met with Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych at a military airport near Moscow. The meeting was so clandestine the Russians initially denied that it had taken place at all.

Before that point, the plan had been for Yanukovych to sign a 900-page association agreement, a sort of engagement contract, with the European Union in the Lithuanian capital of Vilnius on Nov. 29. But in early November near Moscow, Putin seems to have sealed an alliance with Ukraine, preempting his rivals in Brussels. And last Thursday Yanukovych postponed the signing of the EU agreement indefinitely.

‘Unprecendented Pressure’ from Russia

“I believe the unprecedented pressure from the Russians was the decisive factor,” says former Polish Prime Minister and intermediary Aleksander Kwasniewski. “The Russians used everything in their arsenal.” Elmar Brok, chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament, says: “Yanukovych kept all options open until the end, so as to get the best possible deal.”

The official reason for the agreement’s failure is Yulia Tymoshenko, the opposition politician who has been in prison for the last two years. The EU had made her release a condition of the agreement. Yanukovych was unwilling to release his former rival, and last week the parliament in Kiev failed to approve a bill that would have secured her release.

But then there are the financial incentives. In the end, the Russian president seems to have promised his Ukrainian counterpart several billion euros in the form of subsidies, debt forgiveness and duty-free imports. The EU, for its part, had offered Ukraine loans worth €610 million ($827 million), which it had increased at the last moment, along with the vague prospect of a €1 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Yanukovych chose Putin’s billions instead.

The EU had been banking on its radiant appeal, and on its great promise of prosperity, freedom and democracy, but now Brussels must confront the fact that, for the first time, an attempt at rapprochement was rebuffed because the price was wrong. “If Yanukovych doesn’t want to make a deal, then he simply doesn’t want to,” says Brok.

spiegel.de/international/europe/how-the-eu-lost-to-russia-in-negotiations-over-ukraine-trade-deal-a-935476.html

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Personally, I feel the Ukraine would be better off just totally independent of BOTH Russia AND the EU.

From talking to folks who have been following the situation there on other forums, it seems the majority of demonstrators are simply riled-up nationalists who have had enough of the Putin-inspired corruption-----it is the leaders of the demonstrations who generally are pro-EU. It will be interesting to find out what John Q. Demonstrator really thinks of what his leaders really intend to do regarding the future of the country.

What I find most amazing out of this is the fact the EU is supposedly already imposing sanctions on Ukraine.

Call me naive-----but where does the EU get off imposing economic sanctions on a country that is not part of it?

I can understand maybe banning visas for people from Ukraine from coming to other EU countries-----but economic sanctions? They have no right!!!

AFAIK, the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU even before the whole thing hit the you-know-what…

That goes both ethnic Russians and native Ukrainians…

I just feel the real victims of this are the common Ukrainians (whether Russian-speaking or not) who are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Do you want to be kicked or do you want to be gouged, essentially.

And just to clarify…I do not like tyrannical Putin…but I do not like the EU either.

 

[josie_L]

Personally, I feel the Ukraine would be better off just totally independent of BOTH Russia AND the EU.

From talking to folks who have been following the situation there on other forums, it seems the majority of demonstrators are simply riled-up nationalists who have had enough of the Putin-inspired corruption-----it is the leaders of the demonstrations who generally are pro-EU. It will be interesting to find out what John Q. Demonstrator really thinks of what his leaders really intend to do regarding the future of the country.

What I find most amazing out of this is the fact the EU is supposedly already imposing sanctions on Ukraine.

Call me naive-----but where does the EU get off imposing economic sanctions on a country that is not part of it?

I can understand maybe banning visas for people from Ukraine from coming to other EU countries-----but economic sanctions? They have no right!!!

AFAIK, the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU even before the whole thing hit the you-know-what…

That goes both ethnic Russians and native Ukrainians…

I just feel the real victims of this are the common Ukrainians (whether Russian-speaking or not) who are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Do you want to be kicked or do you want to be gouged, essentially.

And just to clarify…I do not like tyrannical Putin…but I do not like the EU either.

But the Ukraine needs money, so where is it to come from? EU/West or Russia???

 

[josie_L]

Personally, I feel the Ukraine would be better off just totally independent of BOTH Russia AND the EU.

From talking to folks who have been following the situation there on other forums, it seems the majority of demonstrators are simply riled-up nationalists who have had enough of the Putin-inspired corruption-----it is the leaders of the demonstrations who generally are pro-EU. It will be interesting to find out what John Q. Demonstrator really thinks of what his leaders really intend to do regarding the future of the country.

What I find most amazing out of this is the fact the EU is supposedly already imposing sanctions on Ukraine.

Call me naive-----but where does the EU get off imposing economic sanctions on a country that is not part of it?

I can understand maybe banning visas for people from Ukraine from coming to other EU countries-----but economic sanctions? They have no right!!!

AFAIK, the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU even before the whole thing hit the you-know-what…

That goes both ethnic Russians and native Ukrainians…

I just feel the real victims of this are the common Ukrainians (whether Russian-speaking or not) who are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Do you want to be kicked or do you want to be gouged, essentially.

And just to clarify…I do not like tyrannical Putin…but I do not like the EU either.

And it was imposing sanctions just like Canada and the U.S. did, i.e., Canada was going to issue economic sanctions as well but by then Yanukovych had fled, i.e., it was in order to put pressure on a government that turned on its people. And do you have a source that states the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU, I don’t see how it’s possible considering the economic situation in the Ukraine, i.e., were they more willing to get the money from Russia?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

And it was imposing sanctions just like Canada and the U.S. did, i.e., travel sanctions. Canada was going to issue economic sanctions as well but by then Yanukovych had fled, i.e., it was in order to put pressure on a government that turned on its people. And do you have a source that states the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU, I don’t see how it’s possible considering the economic situation in the Ukraine, i.e., were they more willing to get the money from Russia?

Ukraine is not part of the EU----not yet, though.

I can see the United States and Canada doing it, though, since, as far as I know, the Ukraine is part of the UN.

I have been told in other forums by people who are actually there that the majority of Ukrainians rejected the EU vote. This was basically started by pro-EU demonstartors who were brutally suppressed by government thugs-----thus setting off nationalist fervor and backslash.

That is what I’ve been told by these sources, at least.

Indeed.,

 

[Tomdstone]

Here’s a greater explanation as to why Yanukovych didn’t sign the treaty:
" The EU, for its part, had offered Ukraine loans worth €610 million ($827 million), which it had increased at the last moment, along with the vague prospect of a €1 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Yanukovych chose Putin’s billions instead."

It seems like an easy choice: $800 million from the EU or 15000 million (15 billion) and cheap gas from Russia.

 

[KyivAndrew]

What I find most amazing out of this is the fact the EU is supposedly already imposing sanctions on Ukraine.

Call me naive-----but where does the EU get off imposing economic sanctions on a country that is not part of it?

AFAIK, the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU even before the whole thing hit the you-know-what…

No the EU is not considering putting sanctions against the country Ukraine now and it never did, only against those members in government responsible for orders to shoot to kill civilians.

Plus, it is not true the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU before everything hit the fan as you aver. The last poll done by the Razumkov Center (a respectable polling centre) confirmed this. It’s getting late here so I’m out, sorry.