Ukraine

[Vouthon]

Didn’t I say that I opposed the Iraq War? Do you not remember the international protests and outrage against it?

We know about Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq…the list could go on. America is not as saintly in the eyes of the world as you seem to think. It has faced a basket load of criticism over the decades. And Russia deserves just criticism when it is due too and in this case it is more than due.

Why on earth perceived American wrongs seemingly justify or excuse Russian ones is beyond me. “Oh, well I think the US got away with such-and-such, so its fine for Russia to do this”. What kind of logic is that? Shouldn’t Russia try to take the moral high ground then rather than violating the territorial integrity of a weak neighbour?

 

[JordanJD]

Germany has legit reasons to dislike Russia? When exactly did Russia ever do anything to Germany?

Well they did kinda push back into Germany at the end of WW2 and split the country in half and installed a communist dictatorship in the eastern part

But regardless, Both America and Western Europe keep trying to fund radical groups along Russia’s border areas, and Russia (along with China) both see this NWO plot for what it is and refuse to go along with it, that’s why our progressive media is constantly demonizing and lying about China and Russia, the media propaganda tells you all “jump!” and your only response is “how high?”

 

[JordanJD]

Didn’t I say that I opposed the Iraq War? Do you not remember the protests and outrage against it?

We know about Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq…the list could go on. America is not as saintly in the eyes of the world as you seem to think. It has faced a basket load of criticism over the decades. And Russia deserves just criticism when it is due too.

Why on earth American wrongs seemingly justify or excuse Russian ones is beyond me. “Oh, well I think the US got away with such-and-such, so its fine for Russia to do this”. What kind of logic is that? Shouldn’t Russia try to take the moral high ground then rather than violating the territorial integrity of a weak neighbour?

There was an illegal coup in Ukraine and one of the first things they did was mandate a law making official documents illegal unless they were in Ukrainian only, despite the fact something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the country reads/speaks Russian or other minority languages.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

“I have NO MERCY for fascists or time for them, most of my wife’s family’s immediate ancestors on one side died due to them and my only dialogue with them be would via a rilfe’s business end.”

You apparently have “different strokes for different folks,” so why shouldn’t others? Rather hard to take the moral high ground when you’ve pretty much said that a person just being a fascist is grounds for you shooting them.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Nope, they placed their troops in Crimea, as per a previously signed agreement that has being accepted,for years, between both countries.

And which part of that agreement gave Russia permission to do anything but sit on their base? I doubt it included an article whereby Russia was authorized to send armed troops to seize and occupy Crimea’s parliament and airports.

 

[ishii]

Nope, they placed their troops in Crimea, as per a previously signed agreement that has being accepted,for years, between both countries.

Now I’ve heard the euphemism of all euphemisms: Russia hasn’t invaded, they’ve “placed their troops” in Crimea. I suppose you’re okay with the US placing troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Ishii

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Well they did kinda push back into Germany at the end of WW2 and split the country in half and installed a communist dictatorship in the eastern part

But regardless, Both America and Western Europe keep trying to fund radical groups along Russia’s border areas, and Russia (along with China) both see this NWO plot for what it is and refuse to go along with it, that’s why our progressive media is constantly demonizing and lying about China and Russia, the media propaganda tells you all “jump!” and your only response is “how high?”

-Yeah, being invaded twice by the same country in less than 50 years with both invasions resulting in millions of deaths kind of justifies dividing a country and making sure they can’t do it a third time.

-“New World Order” plot? You know, you could have just asked me to ignore the rest of your posts instead of resorting to invoking wild conspiracy theories.

 

[JordanJD]

I’m still laughing at the point of tears right now over the fact that the people who complain about that “lying biased MSM” are now gulping and drinking every word of the press that they are being fed about the Ukraine situation

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You don’t need to discuss it with me. The Church has produced mountains of documents that cover how one justly deals with an unjust aggressor. Dialogue via a bullet oddly isn’t one of the valid methods the Church has given us. Having “NO MERCY” on the unjust aggressor is also oddly missing from these same valid methods.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m still laughing at the point of tears right now over the fact that the people who complain about that “lying biased MSM” are now gulping and drinking every word of the press that they are being fed about the Ukraine situation

That’s the live Obama feed. Which mandatory station does Russia watch?

 

[JordanJD]

-Yeah, being invaded twice by the same country in less than 50 years with both invasions resulting in millions of deaths kind of justifies dividing a country and making sure they can’t do it a third time.

Do you have a hard time with reading comprehension? I was saying Germany had every right to hate Russia for doing that. But since we are talking Nazi’s vs Communists I really don’t think either side was in the right in that war.

-“New World Order” plot? You know, you could have just asked me to ignore the rest of your posts instead of resorting to invoking wild conspiracy theories.

conspiracy theory? It’s no conspiracy, it is right out there in the open. President George Bush literally talked about it in his state of the union address in 1991 and was promoting it!

youtube.com/watch?v=byxeOG_pZ1o

 

[Monkey1976]

I’m trying to find solid confirmation or denial of some rumors that are flying around the interweb:

• The Ukranian military is refusing to accept any orders from Kiev
• Some Ukranian military units have defected
• Arseniy Yatsenyuk is a leader in the Ukranian neo-Nazi party

Anyone have a solid yes/no on these?

 

[JordanJD]

I am also amused at people saying “Obama is weak, Putin doesn’t respect him, he needs to be more firm, he is pansy, blah blah blah” and then when I ask “Well then tell me what Obama should have done or said differently?” and the response is always “Well…um…uhhh…uhhhh… durrr… hurrr… ummm…”

 

[KyivAndrew]

Nope, they placed their troops in Crimea, as per a previously signed agreement that has being accepted,for years, between both countries.

Not true. The Russian armed forces have left their bases, under orders not to wear military insignia, and have surrounded the Ukrainian army and naval bases in Crimea - this is not only a breaking of the agreement, but they are using tactics which really show they want war with Ukraine. How else to explain this which appears in the Guardian’s blog right now:

*The Guardian’s Shaun Walker has been given exclusive access to the inside of a Ukrainian marine base in Feodosia, Crimea, which has been surrounded by Russian troops.

Shaun describes how confusion has descended at times:
Inside the base at Feodosia, word came that the order had come from Kiev that all marines should give up their weapons voluntarily to the Russians.
One of the marines then read on Facebook that the news was apparently fake, and rushed off to inform his superiors who were in negotiations with Russians.
Many of the marines were on the phone to friends at other bases, asking whether they had been forced to give up their weapons.*
theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/ukraine-warns-russia-crimea-war-live

Unbelievable. These sneaky Russian marines have also used grenades to steal the weapons stock from a Ukrainian military base in Belbek:
pravda.com.ua/news/2014/03/3/7017207/

If this was happening in Russia to the Russian military, Putin would declare it an act of war. With all due respect to Angela Merkel, in my opinion Putin will say one thing and do something completely different. Merkel should understand this as she lived under a regime enforced by the ruthless East German Stasi which worked with Putin when he was a KGB agent in Dresden.

No: just like Vouthon said, the parallels are with the Sudetenland, with Russian Duma Vice-speaker Vladimir Zhirinovsky being the only fascist with government authority appearing in the Crimea. Another parallel is Czechoslovakia in 1968 or Hungary in 1956.

Putin is not decreasing the temperature and Medvedev’s latest words suggest Putin is willing to provoke more. As Ukraine’s Kharkiv Human Rights group reported yesterday in a story to which I linked, a synagogue was defaced in an area strictly under Russian control. Of course, in the future the Russian secret police will look to orchestrate further provocations. I don’t even think Putin, schooled in the bloody KGB, would hesitate to have some of his own troops shot and blame it on Ukrainians if this could further his power in Ukraine.

 

[JordanJD]

I’m trying to find solid confirmation or denial of some rumors that are flying around the interweb:

• The Ukranian military is refusing to accept any orders from Kiev
• Some Ukranian military units have defected
• Arseniy Yatsenyuk is a leader in the Ukranian neo-Nazi party

Anyone have a solid yes/no on these?

The Ukranian military is refusing to accept any orders from Kiev

All I know is that Defense Minister in Ukraine has said to Parliament that their country cannot fight Russia even if they wanted to and that they should engage in talks

Some Ukranian military units have defected

True

Arseniy Yatsenyuk is a leader in the Ukranian neo-Nazi party

Possibly but several lower members of the government who took over and definitely many rioters are skinheads

 

[ishii]

I am also amused at people saying “Obama is weak, Putin doesn’t respect him, he needs to be more firm, he is pansy, blah blah blah” and then when I ask “Well then tell me what Obama should have done or said differently?” and the response is always “Well…um…uhhh…uhhhh… durrr… hurrr… ummm…”

Putin doesn’t respect the US because Obama and Kerry are effete liberals - much like Jimmy Carter in the 1970’s. I recall the meeting between Medvedev and Obama in which Obama said something like, “don’t worry, I’ll have much more flexibility after the election.” Recall JordanJD that this is an administration that invites the muslim brotherhood into the white house and stood idly by while the intelligence showed a likely terrorist attack on our embassy in Libya. I don’t blame Putin at all for not respecting a weak president like Obama. I don’t respect him either. Too often instead of leadership from Obama we get, “um…uhhh…uhhh…er…ummm.”

Ishii

 

[JordanJD]

Not true. The Russian armed forces have left their bases, under orders not to wear military insignia

Wrong, the units without insignias are contractors (think Blackwater) working for several pro-Russian groups in Crimea. Regular Russian military units are still at normal levels

No: just like Vouthon said, the parallels are with the Sudetenland

Here we go again, falling back on the Hitler argument

As Ukraine’s Kharkiv Human Rights group reported yesterday in a story to which I linked, a synagogue was defaced in an area strictly under Russian control

That’s right: It was defaced by the neo-nazis who are agitating Russia right now: twitter.com/MillerMENA/status/439464222011830272/photo/1

 

[KyivAndrew]

I’m trying to find solid confirmation or denial of some rumors that are flying around the interweb:

• The Ukranian military is refusing to accept any orders from Kiev
• Some Ukranian military units have defected
• Arseniy Yatsenyuk is a leader in the Ukranian neo-Nazi party

Anyone have a solid yes/no on these?

Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not the leader of a Ukrainian neo-Nazi party and anyone who says so is lying. (Look up the Batkivshchyna Party) The Ukrainian military is bravely accepting orders from Kyiv and not responding to the massive provocations from Putin’s forces who are itching for a fight apparently. One Ukrainian naval commander has defected, possibly due to the enormous coercion Ukrainian military entities have come under. I think one Ukrainian military base just had to repulse a Russian attempt at sabotaging its electricity supply. What is the point of all this? To maximize the chance of death of innocent young men. People are going to die because Putin is doing this, not the Ukrainians doing it, but Putin using sabotage.

I note how mighty Putin arrested an assembly of Russian anti-war protestors in Moscow using the ruthless OMON, while a rally, possibly staged, assembled no problems in Moscow. Obviously Putin runs an autocratic state. Most Ukrainians do not wish to live in an autocratic state.

 

[JordanJD]

Putin doesn’t respect the US because Obama and Kerry are effete liberals - much like Jimmy Carter in the 1970’s. I recall the meeting between Medvedev and Obama in which Obama said something like, “don’t worry, I’ll have much more flexibility after the election.” Recall JordanJD that this is an administration that invites the muslim brotherhood into the white house and stood idly by while the intelligence showed a likely terrorist attack on our embassy in Libya. I don’t blame Putin at all for not respecting a weak president like Obama. I don’t respect him either. Too often instead of leadership from Obama we get, “um…uhhh…uhhh…er…ummm.”

Ishii

Well then let me ask for the 2nd, actually 3rd time, please give me SPECIFIC and EXACT answer as to what Obama should have said or done differently than he already has?

 

[Seamus_L]

The acting government in Kiev appointed oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky to head the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast in a move some suspect was done in part to demonstrate that the acting government is not anti-Jewish. Kolomoisky has duel Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship.