Ukraine

[GraceSofia]

Andrew Wilson at the European Council on Foreign Relations, a leading think-tank, has published a quick guide called Ten things you should know about Crimea

I cannot get that link to work. Cannot get the main web site either. I tried earlier, too, when somebody else posted the link.
Is it just me?

 

[JordanJD]

The Chechens had been ethnically cleansing Russians since at least the late 80’s, and the Georgians invaded South Ossetia, so I don’t see that as Russian aggression. A majority of Chechen Muslims ended up siding with Russia against the Jihadists anyway.

                                     If Ukraine eventually joins the EU, after the initial high experienced from massive loans, the people will begin seeing the downside. Austerity measures, Gay pride parades, and culturally incompatible immigrant communities.

Europe might bail out Ukraine, they might still do some trading deals, but EU and NATO membership are now dead as a corpse. You think the EU wants a nation that is in constant economic turmoil? You think NATO wants a member nation who is unstable and also borders nuclear Russia?

 

[Vouthon]

I am in agreement that it is possible that the Chechnyan affair could have been too extreme but I do not know enough about it to give an opinion. However it is still true that almost the majority of terrorist attacks that happened in Russia originated from that province. Trust me Russia has had bombings even in the capital Moscow dozens of times now, just like the UK had with the IRA in the past, and if America had whole shootings of operas and subway bombings like Russia has had we would have found those camps and turned them into glass craters by now

The IRA comparison to Britain is germane because while the UK over-reacted at points during the troubles (such as in Bloody Sunday in 1972 when the army opened fire on peaceful protestors, killing 15), it is hardly to be compared to what Putin orchestrated in Chechyna. Ostensibly, the situations are similar. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and there was a serious terrorist threat as well as local agitation, especially in the Catholic community, for independence from Britain. Chechyna was similarly part of the Russian Federation, there was a serious terrorist threat, especially from Muslims, and local agitation for independence.

Putin’s response?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999%E2%80%932000

The 1999–2000 battle of Grozny was the siege and assault of the Chechen capital Grozny by Russian forces, lasting from late 1999 to early 2000. The siege and fighting left the capital devastated. In 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on Earth

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999%E2%80%932000

Do you think that this was a proximate, measured or equivalent response to Chechyna trying to gain its independence?

 

[JordanJD]

Yes, and the leaders of the Faith in the Ukraine have made it rather clear their views regarding Russia making the situation worse by it’s actions.

The church in Ukraine is like the church in Russia, both are pretty much puppets to the government so whatever position the government takes, they also gotta take, so I would not take the state-controlled orthodox churches in those and surrounding countries seriously whatever way the wind blows

 

[GraceSofia]

Yes, and the leaders of the Faith in the Ukraine have made it rather clear their views regarding Russia making the situation worse by it’s actions.

Yes, they have.
And Pope Francis, too. “It is my wish that all the components of the country will endeavor to overcome misunderstandings and build together the future of the nation,” he said. “I make a heartfelt appeal to the international community to support every initiative on behalf of dialogue and harmony.”

 

[JordanJD]

Some interesting info I found when looking up Putin:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin#Religion

*Putin’s father was “a model communist, genuinely believing in its ideals while trying to put them into practice in his own life”. With this dedication he became secretary of the Party cell in his workshop and then after taking night classes joined the factory’s Party bureau.[321] Though his father was a “militant atheist”,[322] Putin’s mother “was a devoted Orthodox believer”. Though she kept no icons at home, she attended church regularly, despite the government’s persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church at that time. She ensured that Putin was secretly christened as a baby and she regularly took him to services. His father knew of this but turned a blind eye.[321]

According to Putin’s own statements, his religious awakening followed the serious car crash of his wife in 1993, and was deepened by a life-threatening fire that burned down their dacha in August 1996.[322] Right before an official visit to Israel his mother gave him his baptismal cross telling him to get it blessed “I did as she said and then put the cross around my neck. I have never taken it off since.”[321] When asked whether he believes in God during his interview with Time, he responded saying: “…There are things I believe, which should not in my position, at least, be shared with the public at large for everybody’s consumption because that would look like self-advertising or a political striptease.”*

 

[Miserissima]

I cannot get that link to work. Cannot get the main web site either. I tried earlier, too, when somebody else posted the link.
Is it just me?

Not just you – me, too.

 

[Vouthon]

The church in Ukraine is like the church in Russia, both are pretty much puppets to the government so whatever position the government takes, they also gotta take, so I would not take the state-controlled orthodox churches in those and surrounding countries seriously whatever way the wind blows

The Ukranian Catholic Church is not a puppet in any way, is it? It has clearly condemned the Russian invasion.

One of the main targets of the Yanukovych regime was the Catholic Church.

Long before the latest conflict, Catholic leaders had criticised aspects of Yanukovich’s rule, including his failure to hand back Church properties seized under Soviet rule. During a visit to Brussels last March, they backed closer EU links. But EU ties have been opposed by the Moscow-linked Orthodox Church, whose Russian patriarch, Kirill I, came to Kiev to give Yanukovich a blessing at his inauguration four years ago. Not surprisingly, the Moscow-linked Orthodox Church reacted calmly to Yanukovych’s withdrawal from the EU deal. But Greek Catholics shared the public anger, raising fears that the mass protests could acquire a confessional edge.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2014/01/30/clergy-have-vital-role-to-play-in-helping-stamp-out-the-fires-of-kiev

Read:

While the protests continue, priests from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church have held “religious services,” according to AFP (presumably Mass), several times a day.

Yesterday, Yanukovich’s government threatened to shut down the church throughout Ukraine if the priests continued to offer services outside of their own facilities — sending another shock wave through Ukraine:

The Ukrainian government has threatened to outlaw the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church for holding prayer services for opposition protesters occupying Kiev’s central square.

The culture ministry on Monday sent a letter to the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, accusing its priests of “breaking the law” by holding religious services outside a place of worship.

The move may well end up backfiring:

“For the first time since the independence of Ukraine, we have been put on our guard. We have de facto been warned that they could deprive our Church of its legal status,” Shevchuk told reporters on Monday.

“We thought that the prosecution of priests was a thing of the past.”

**The government warning has sparked anger among believers.

“It is illegal, it is immoral. Nobody can forbid people to pray**. Only Satan does not want people to pray,” said Pavlo, 52, as he came out of one of the tents on Tuesday.

hotair.com/archives/2014/01/15/ukraine-warns-church-to-stop-outdoor-services-for-protesters-or-face-shutdown/

Neither Putin nor his surrogates have done anything for Catholicism.

In fact pre-Vatican II the Yanukovych regime would have been seen as illegitimate for its attempts to suppress Catholic worship and threatening to revoke our legal status in the country.

Denying the freedom of the church to operate and give the sacraments to its children has always been treated as among the most serious of sins in Catholic thought.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The church in Ukraine is like the church in Russia, both are pretty much puppets to the government so whatever position the government takes, they also gotta take, so I would not take the state-controlled orthodox churches in those and surrounding countries seriously whatever way the wind blows

While I’m Roman Catholic and not Orthodox Catholic, I’m not going to let you defame their clergy. This site has rightly made it clear that clergy are to be treated with the respect due their office. Your above shows a complete lack of respect for not only the clergy of the various faiths in both Ukraine and Russia, but a lack of respect for the faithful in both countries.

 

[GraceSofia]

The church in Ukraine is like the church in Russia, both are pretty much puppets to the government so whatever position the government takes, they also gotta take, so I would not take the state-controlled orthodox churches in those and surrounding countries seriously whatever way the wind blows

Sorry, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has stood through hell and back NOT to mouth words any government tells them to.

Maybe you missed this:
euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/appeal-of-ukrainian-churches-and-religious-organizations-regarding-foreign-aggression/comment-page-1/

 

[JordanJD]

Do you think that this was a proximate, measured or equivalent response to Chechyna trying to gain its independence?

I honestly don’t know, but reading the whole Wikipedia article it was a difficult situation for all involved. Thankfully almost all civilians were evacuated before the Russian forces attacked, and the rebels holed up in the city were, again, responsible for attacking in the past Russian civilians and wanting to create a Saudi-Arabian style Wahhabi-theocratic state. Believe me, it is not even the Islamic fundamentalist state that was the worst part but that they openly admitted their goals were to use it as a base for future attacks against Russia.

 

[Vouthon]

While I’m Roman Catholic and not Orthodox Catholic, I’m not going to let you defame their clergy. This site has rightly made it clear that clergy are to be treated with the respect due their office. Your above shows a complete lack of respect for not only the clergy of the various faiths in both Ukraine and Russia, but a lack of respect for the faithful in both countries.

Amen! Both Churches, as well as the Jewish authorities and the Tartar Muslims have taken a brave stand against Russia’s invasion.

His insinuation about Orthodox clergy being “puppets” of the government is offensive, given that Catholics recognize the validity of Orthodox ordinations.

 

[JordanJD]

Regarding the church comments: I would ask that you all read what I actually wrote before you respond. I said that the ORTHODOX church in Ukraine and Russia were puppets to the state, not the Catholic churches.

 

[Vouthon]

Regarding the church comments: I would ask that you all read what I actually wrote before you respond. I said that the ORTHODOX church in Ukraine and Russia were puppets to the state, not the Catholic churches.

It is your offensiveness towards our Eastern Orthodox brothers, who share the same faith as us and whom we recognize as true churches with valid sacraments, that has hurt us

“…Catholics and Orthodox are not enemies, but brothers. We have the same faith; we share the same sacraments, and especially the Eucharist. We are divided by some disagreements concerning the divine constitution of the Church of Jesus Christ. The persons who were the cause of these disagreements have been dead for centuries. Let us abandon the old disputes and, each in his own domain, let us work to make our brothers good, by giving them good example. Later on, though traveling along different paths, we shall achieve union among the churches to form together the true and unique Church of our Lord Jesus Christ…”

***- Angelo Roncalli (Blessed Pope John XXIII) 1926, Letter to Young Bulgarian Orthodox Christian ***

 

[JordanJD]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church

Canon Michael Bourdeaux, former president of Keston Institute, believed in January 2008 that “the Moscow Patriarchate acts as though it heads a state church, while the few Orthodox clergy who oppose the church-state symbiosis face severe criticism, even loss of livelihood.”[50] Such view is backed up by other Russia’s political life observers.[51] Clifford J. Levy of New York Times wrote in April 2008: «Just as the government has tightened control over political life, so, too, has it intruded in matters of faith. The Kremlin’s surrogates in many areas have turned the Russian Orthodox Church into a de facto official religion, warding off other Christian denominations that seem to offer the most significant competition for worshipers. <…> This close alliance between the government and the Russian Orthodox Church has become a defining characteristic of Mr. Putin’s tenure, a mutually reinforcing choreography that is usually described here as working “in symphony”.

 

[JordanJD]

It is your offensiveness towards our Eastern Orthodox brothers, who share the same faith as us and whom we recognize as true churches with valid sacraments, that has hurt us

Let me be more clear then: It is not the faithful who are corrupt but many, but not all, of the upper levels of the clergy. If you seriously deny this then you are denying reality.

 

[Vouthon]

Let me be more clear then: It is not the faithful who are corrupt but many, but not all, of the upper levels of the clergy. If you seriously deny this then you are denying reality.

Individuals can be and always have been “corrupt”. There have been heavily corrupt popes. In fact, the Avignon Papacy was almost completely under the control of the French King. Throughout this entire period, the Church never lost its “holiness”. To say, however, that the “church” is a puppet or its clergy “collectively” are, is not in keeping with the spirit of a Catholic forum IMHO.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

The church in Ukraine is like the church in Russia, both are pretty much puppets to the government so whatever position the government takes, they also gotta take, so I would not take the state-controlled orthodox churches in those and surrounding countries seriously whatever way the wind blows

You know, this is a rather odd dismissal of the arguments of religious leaders – the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate must be controlled by the government, therefore we shouldn’t listen to its criticisms of Russia (which you apparently disagree with). But some of the same people who make this kind of argument will turn around and praise Russia, not withstanding state control of the church, because the state and church there are doing things they agree with. I must confess I don’t understand this position. (And also, as a PP noted, these kind of statements about our Orthodox brothers and sisters aren’t exactly charitable or productive.)

Back on topic, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate generally supported the Maidan protesters. Its monks and priests allowed St. Michael’s Cathedral and Monastery in Central Kyiv to be used as a field hospital for wounded protesters. So I wouldn’t go saying that it’s state-controlled – it came out pretty clearly against the prior Ukr government leaders.

All of the major religious leaders in Ukraine, with the exception of the Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (no surprise there), signed the open letter that we’re discussing. Including Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Since we are after all on a Catholic discussion site, the position of Ukraine’s top Catholic bishop is worth noting.

 

[Vouthon]

All of the major religious leaders in Ukraine,** with the exception of the Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (no surprise there), **signed the open letter that we’re discussing. Including Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Since we are after all on a Catholic discussion site, the position of Ukraine’s top Catholic bishop is worth noting.

Which is not surprising given the fact that the Patriarchate has to tread extremely carefully for the safety of its own parishioners and status. I do not think that the German Catholic Church was ever capable of explicitly condemning the Nazi war effort (although it did condemn the Euthanasia Program). We have to understand the complexities of life under authoritarian regimes.

 

[JordanJD]

Individuals can be and always have been “corrupt”. There have been heavily corrupt popes. In fact, the Avignon Papacy was almost completely under the control of the French King. Throughout this entire period, the Church never lost its “holiness”. To say, however, that the “church” is a puppet or its clergy “collectively” are, is not in keeping with the spirit of a Catholic forum IMHO.

And again, I did not say “the whole orthodox church worldwide” I gave specific examples and even quoted a part of Wikipedia to show some evidence