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Vouthon
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I can accept that, however your statement about the Ukranian Orthodox Church being in the same position as the Moscow Patriarchate vis-à-vis the government has been proven, amply, to be untrue in the last months.
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GraceSofia
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When you write, “the church in Ukraine” on a *Catholic *forum, we think you mean the Catholic one. (There is really only one holy catholic and apostolic Church).
Well, at least I’m not alone.
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AnastasiaRomano
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Oh, I certainly agree with that and wasn’t trying to imply any particular reason for the Moscow Patriarchate’s lack of signature (just that I wasn’t surprised their signature was missing). Its leaders, based in Moscow, are in a different position than the churches and religious groups based in Ukraine.
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Vouthon
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No sweat, I loved your post and was merely adding that for the benefit of Jordan
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JordanJD
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Some questions I have had this this whole situation has started is:
Where is the Ukrainian map with the pipelines owned by gazprom and the millions of acres under contract with Exxon and Chevron for gas production?
Where are the lists of american NGO’s that received 5 billion dollars to destabilize ukraine?
Where is the list of the identities of the american snipers in the euromaidan insurrection?
Lots of Euro and US help on the square in Kiev. Too bad the state department can’t tell the truth for fear of showing their bloody hands.
I did, however, find answers to my 2nd question: Centre UA, New Citizen, & Chesno are three Ukrainian groups that were receiving large sums of money from USAID and the Congressionally funded National Endowment for Democracy as early as 2010. The Ukrainian groups receiving the US aid money specifically targeted MPs from the Party of Regions in the eastern half of Ukraine as well as President Yanukovitch.
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Where is the Ukrainian map with the pipelines owned by gazprom and the millions of acres under contract with Exxon and Chevron for gas production?
Where are the lists of american NGO’s that received 5 billion dollars to destabilize ukraine?
Where is the list of the identities of the american snipers in the euromaidan insurrection?
Lots of Euro and US help on the square in Kiev. Too bad the state department can’t tell the truth for fear of showing their bloody hands.
I did, however, find answers to my 2nd question: Centre UA, New Citizen, & Chesno are three Ukrainian groups that were receiving large sums of money from USAID and the Congressionally funded National Endowment for Democracy as early as 2010. The Ukrainian groups receiving the US aid money specifically targeted MPs from the Party of Regions in the eastern half of Ukraine as well as President Yanukovitch.
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HappyCatholic01
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Base closures happen all the time though. Reducing troop levels to 70 year lows do not. When a base that was at one time in a strategic location no longer is, closure makes sense. That doesn’t impact readiness the way minimal manning does.
Also remember when the military shrinks, R&D shrinks. Historically, some of the country’s greatest progress has come through military R&D.
I do wonder what the world thinks. We hear cries of “mind your own business” and “you aren’t the world’s police” which I would agree with, but that is usually from the countries who aren’t having their airports occupied at the moment. If you do not want the US to drive the state of world affairs, so be it, but the world then needs to find someone else to do the dirty work as well. Ditto for our friends in the UK.
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gilliam
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BBC:
Russia’s Black Sea Fleet has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 5:00 local time (03:00 GMT) on Tuesday to surrender or face an all-out assault, according to Ukrainian defense ministry sources quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency. “If by 5am tomorrow morning they do not surrender a real assault will begin on units and sections of the Ukrainian armed forces all over Crimea,” defense ministry officials are quoted as saying. So far there is no further confirmation of the ultimatum from other sources.
Russia’s Black Sea Fleet has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 5:00 local time (03:00 GMT) on Tuesday to surrender or face an all-out assault, according to Ukrainian defense ministry sources quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency. “If by 5am tomorrow morning they do not surrender a real assault will begin on units and sections of the Ukrainian armed forces all over Crimea,” defense ministry officials are quoted as saying. So far there is no further confirmation of the ultimatum from other sources.
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grotto
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A response to JD: “You puts your money down and you takes your choice!” Good advice. Its an automatic reflex to “understand and accept”. Its called freedom! Demand an opinion be read and discover what that gets you…:nope:
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Vouthon
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Which is completely illegal, surely if this news is corroborated and proven true? I mean Crimea has not legally seceded from Ukraine. There has been no due political process, no referendum, no legislative means adopted. Nothing. Russia has simply sent its own troops into the country on trumped up charges, making ample use of the fact that they already had a military presence in the country through the Sevastopol fleet. This ultimatum is without foundation in law. It is like the law of the jungle being resurrected in a 21st century world with transnational and supranational legal norms. Kerry was right, this is 19th century jus ad bellum.
Telling another country’s army to surrender and essentially call quits over their own territory under the threat of an annihilation disgusts me.
Obviously, Ukraine is in a no win situation. The West is in no way going to get militarily involved with Russia, risking a broader conflagration between nuclear superpowers. That is out of the question, only diplomatic channels are possible. But why would Putin feel obligated to listen to soft power politics about economic sanctions, freezes, international disdain and seclusion? I feel very sorry for Ukraine.
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JordanJD
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*The 204th fight-jet airbase of the Ukrainian Air Force, which has 49 aircraft in service, has sided with the government of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, a local government representative told Interfax on Monday.
“Today the command of the 204th base in Belbek has announced it is taking the side of the Crimean people,” he said, adding that the base is more than 800 strong.
“The Belbek airfield has 45 Mikoyan MiG-29 fighters and four L-39 trainer aircraft. Of them, only four fighters and one trainer are in good condition,” the official said.
Thus, “the total number of the Ukrainian Armed Forces servicemen, who have sided with the Crimean people, has approached 6,000,” the source said. *
The world leaders have probably at least privately accepted that Crimea simply does not want to be dictated by Ukraine anymore. When even Ukrainians are abandoning Ukraine you know that your country is run by useless thugs
“Today the command of the 204th base in Belbek has announced it is taking the side of the Crimean people,” he said, adding that the base is more than 800 strong.
“The Belbek airfield has 45 Mikoyan MiG-29 fighters and four L-39 trainer aircraft. Of them, only four fighters and one trainer are in good condition,” the official said.
Thus, “the total number of the Ukrainian Armed Forces servicemen, who have sided with the Crimean people, has approached 6,000,” the source said. *
The world leaders have probably at least privately accepted that Crimea simply does not want to be dictated by Ukraine anymore. When even Ukrainians are abandoning Ukraine you know that your country is run by useless thugs
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gilliam
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Pretty much says it all right there
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GaryTaylor
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Ten base’s surrounded. Crimea sized, but there’s no invasion. CNN confirmed the above deadline, but apparently they are sending mixed message’s out also. They breached a base this morning with concussion grenades, didn’t succeed but one of the Ukraine troops was slightly injured. I don’t think there could be a worse situation.
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JordanJD
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At this point most Ukrainian military in Crimea has defected to the Crimean government. I can’t imagine much left who would resist, we are probably talking 100 or less people
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JordanJD
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politico.com/story/2014/03/ukraine-the-dc-battle-that-wasnt-104162.html
*Several times during Obama’s presidency, events abroad have prompted Americans to consider whether their country should play the role of international policeman. In each case so far — in Libya and Syria, and in the ongoing war in Afghanistan — the public has answered in the negative. A Pew survey published in December even found that for the first time, a majority of Americans say that the United States should “mind its own business internationally and let other countries get along the best they can on their own.” Fifty-two percent of respondents agreed with that proposition, while only 38 percent disagreed.
“This is the most lopsided balance in favor of the U.S. ‘minding its own business’ in the nearly 50-year history of the measure,” Pew reported. That attitude has characterized voters’ views of individual conflicts: Last September, at the height of global alarm about the Syrian regime’s use of chemical weapons against civilians, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed 65 percent of Americans said the Syrian conflict was “none of our business.” In the spring 2011 Libya intervention, early public support gave way quickly to solid disapproval: by November 2011, a CBS News poll showed Americans believed, 49 percent to 37 percent, that the U.S. should never have gotten involved in North Africa.*
*Several times during Obama’s presidency, events abroad have prompted Americans to consider whether their country should play the role of international policeman. In each case so far — in Libya and Syria, and in the ongoing war in Afghanistan — the public has answered in the negative. A Pew survey published in December even found that for the first time, a majority of Americans say that the United States should “mind its own business internationally and let other countries get along the best they can on their own.” Fifty-two percent of respondents agreed with that proposition, while only 38 percent disagreed.
“This is the most lopsided balance in favor of the U.S. ‘minding its own business’ in the nearly 50-year history of the measure,” Pew reported. That attitude has characterized voters’ views of individual conflicts: Last September, at the height of global alarm about the Syrian regime’s use of chemical weapons against civilians, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed 65 percent of Americans said the Syrian conflict was “none of our business.” In the spring 2011 Libya intervention, early public support gave way quickly to solid disapproval: by November 2011, a CBS News poll showed Americans believed, 49 percent to 37 percent, that the U.S. should never have gotten involved in North Africa.*
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Monkey1976
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I know that Sebastopol is Russia’s only warm-water naval base, but does Ukraine have any naval bases outside the Crimea? I’m trying to understand what strategic assets are at risk here.
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JordanJD
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Even if they do, most of the Ukraine fleet has either joined Crimea or run off
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GaryTaylor
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Do they have communist music playing too? CNN interviewed a few civilians, scared to death, they were comparing Putin to Hitler too. Oh well, we’re awaiting our wonder of a leader, he’s wondering how he’s going to sell military cuts on Wednesday and convince Israel today all is well in Palestine and Iran. All bad for business as the stock markets fall worldwide.
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JordanJD
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This is why the western media is so disgusting and evil: assuming this report of the fleet commander calling for a surrender of remaining naval forces in Crimea is true, look at how our own MSM translates it from NBC news:
*“Surrender or face storm, Russia tells Ukraine” *
Pure propaganda vile pigs, all you, ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN, you pimps will say any hyperbolic headline to catch the viewers
*“Surrender or face storm, Russia tells Ukraine” *
Pure propaganda vile pigs, all you, ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN, you pimps will say any hyperbolic headline to catch the viewers
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Vouthon
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