Ukraine

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gilliam said:
At the UN Security Council meeting that Russia called, the Russian ambassador presented a letter where Ukraine’s ousted President Viktor Yanukovych has written to Russian President Vladimir Putin asking him to use military force in Ukraine

Off hand, I would say this does not bode well for Ukraine, and indicates a possible expansion of the Russian military actions in Ukraine.Ukraine’s ousted President Viktor Yanukovych has written to Russian President Vladimir Putin asking him to use military force in Ukraine, says Russia’s envoy to the UN, Vitaly Churkin.
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Russia has a couple of things in her favor:
  1. Yanukovych was elected democratically in a free and open election of all the people of Ukraine.
  2. Yanukovych and the opposition, with the western powers looking on, signed an official agreement whereby (i think) he would remain president until the new elections took place.
  3. Russia has the gas that Europe desperately needs. If the west places economic sanctions against Russia, what happens to the gas? Also, in the past Russia had agreed to sell gas to Ukraine at one -half of the market price, very cheap.
  4. Russia has an agreement for a base in Crimea. Further, it looks like the majority of the people of Crimea want more autonomy, if not complete independence from ukraine. They want to be able to vote democratically for this.
 
Well it appears the deadline for when Russia was supposedly going to attack Ukrainian forces has passed without incident.
 
MODERATOR NOTE

This thread is not a thread about homosexuality. If you want to discuss that subject, there are plenty of other threads. Please do not derail this one with that topic. Stay with the crisis in Ukraine and the reasons officials on both sides of the issue are giving for the crisis. Don’t derail this thread.
 
Samantha Powers 3-3-2014

foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/03/samantha-power-address-to-united-nations-on-ukraine/

Let’s begin with a clear and candid assessment of the facts.

It is a fact that Russian military forces have taken over Ukrainian border posts.

It is a fact that Russia has taken over the ferry terminal in Kerch.

It is a fact that Russian ships are moving in and around Sevastapol.

It is a fact that Russian forces are blocking mobile telephone services in some areas.

It is a fact that Russia has surrounded or taken over practically all Ukrainian military facilities in Crimea.

It is a fact that today Russian jets entered Ukrainian airspace.

It is also a fact that independent journalists continue to report that there is no evidence of violence against Russian or pro-Russian communities.

The bottom line is that, for all of the self-serving rhetoric we have heard from Russian officials in recent days, there is nothing that justifies Russian conduct. As I said in our last session, Russia’s actions speak much louder than its words. What is happening today is not a human rights protection mission and it is not a consensual intervention. What is happening today is a dangerous military intervention in Ukraine. It is an act of aggression. It must stop. This is a choice for Russia. Diplomacy can serve Russia’s interests. The world is speaking out against the use of military threats and the use of force. Ukrainians must be allowed to determine their own destiny. Thank you Madam President.

businessinsider.com/samantha-power-russia-ukraine-un-security-council-2014-3
 
France24 just reported that Putin ordered all Russian soldiers “on military exercises” to return to their bases.

No word, though, on a drawdown of the “peacekeeping” operation in Crimea proper.

Could this be a “red” herring?
 
I don’t know I don’t see him stopping from securing eastern areas to cushion his borders.

Russia already occupies and controls Crimea, its definately eyeing other territories in eastern Ukraine.

China has supported Russia in the news, economic leverage sways for this reason on a global level.

The Obama administration is speaking loud about what Russia has done, but the reality is that the U.S. has very little leverage at this point.

What the U.S. does have is a strong military yet there is no desire nor talk of military support. And that is a known by Russia which basically gives them a green light without opposition.

In the end, the U.S. has no good options in Ukraine. The Obama administration has a by large self created mess.

Can’t predict what will occur next, you have a leader with a diametrically opposed view, and with no restraint at the moment.

The relationship between the United States and Russia needs a fresh look, its of little use for the US to dialogue with Russia about human rights and democracy when there is no intention of buying into western thinking nor has the behavior indicated any change. Its time for thinking ahead. The urging of peaceful progress and dialogue is right, but what will ultimately stop Russia in Ukraine is unknown, especially if he can obtain his goals with little to no resistance but simply a large presence and a good propaganda program.
 
gilliam said:
Russian troops, still surrounding all major military installations in Crimea, try to persuade Ukrainian troops to defect

One Ukrainian marine asks: “Am I a terrorist? Are we causing a threat to the Black Sea fleet of Russia?” Turchinyuk replies: “We have an order, which we are carrying out. The goal of me coming here … is to carry out the task given by the president of the Russian Federation in agreement with your legitimately elected president [Viktor Yanukovych].”
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These Ukrainian servicemen are in a bad situation. If Yanukovych is re-instated by Russian might, then they could be in trouble for not obeying these Russian demands.
Cojuanco said:
Crimea is not a sovereign state. If the Governor of California invited Mexican troops to cross at San Ysidro to “protect” the people of California, and Mexico did so, that would naturally be an act of war. Crimea has no rights in international law to conduct its own foreign policy.
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That’s an interesting analogy especially since I have read of plans (dreams?) by Hispanic groups to take over the southern U.S.
Caldera599 said:
The only thing I fear is that the Russians will suppress the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Beyond that, why do they want to join the EU so bad? The EU is at the forefront of pushing the anti-Christian, pro-homosexual progressive agenda in Europe.
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Russia has a very rich elite, a thin band at the top of society, and then masses of poor struggling people. It is a very corrupt country, even to the point of bribery needed and widespread for things like getting into university, which Westerners would find hard to fathom.

The Ukrainians look to Europe as being able to bring them more rule of law, more economic security, and less corruption (although sadly I fear that they are right now going to learn that Europe does not act according to morality, and merely joining the EU does not solve indiginous corruption problems, as we saw the Greeks carried on with their established ways of doing business). Cypriots joined the EU because they believed (wrongly-- it was wishful thinking) that the EU would force the Turkish army of occupation out of Cyprus. I think people often have unrealistic, high expectations of what EU membership will bring them, but you can’t blame them for wanting a higher standard of living.

Regarding corruption, in the 2010 index, Russia was WAY down at #154th most corrupt country. European countries score much higher. transparency.org/cpi2010/results/
Miserissima said:
What has been the statement of Churches in Russia?
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In English: euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/appeal-of-ukrainian-churches-and-religious-organizations-regarding-foreign-aggression/comment-page-1/
on_the_hill said:
As I just posted in another thread: Russia is a threat and must be stopped. If we (the U.S.) don’t stop him in The Crimea, he will continue to move father and farther into Eastern Europe.
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Let the Europeans do it. Why should American soldiers die over this, if the Europeans want to sit safe at home? Looks like the UK is squirrely on sanctions even:
UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London
Britain is drawing up plans to ensure that any EU action against Russia over Ukraine will exempt the City of London, according to a secret government document photographed in Downing Street…
The document said Britain should:
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• “Not support, for now, trade sanctions … or close London’s financial centre to Russians.”
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• Pursue the “deployment of OSCE and/or UN (but not EU) monitors in Crimea and eastern Ukraine”.
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Not the EU? The Americans should refuse to join this fight, IMO.
Old Polish proverb: Not my circus, not my monkeys.

(Let me clarify, I do think the US should help Ukraine as it is able through non-military means, not risking American lives, but should make the Europeans and British step up and LEAD on this. The EU benefits from Americans always leading, always sacrificing, AND getting the hatred of the world because of it. Everybody loves to hate Americans, but they’re quite happy to benefit from her actions, is my opinion).
 
GraceSofia said:
The Americans should refuse to join this fight, IMO.
Old Polish proverb: Not my circus, not my monkeys.
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Obama has consistently said no military intervention, and as this unfolded. I can’t see how it did anything but encourage Putin as this unfolded.
 
huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/cold-war-russia-ukraine_n_4889300.html

Experts said potential U.S. budget cuts to Army units based in Germany also could be slowed, or scrapped completely, to prevent a catastrophic erosion of stability and democracy from creeping across Europe.

The Pentagon is considering new reductions to Army units in Germany that already have been slashed under Obama. Currently, there are two Army brigades — up to 10,000 soldiers — based in Germany, where armored and infantry units have dug in since World War II. At the end of the Cold War, more than 200,000 American forces were stationed across Europe.

Damon Wilson, an Eastern European scholar, former diplomat and executive vice president of the Washington-based Atlantic Council think tank, said the U.S. must be ready to pour its efforts into Ukraine, even at the cost of policies and priorities elsewhere.

“We should be no longer deluded by the fact that Europe is a safe spot of stability and security, and not a security risk for the U.S.,” Wilson said Sunday. He said that if Putin goes unchecked, it could result in war — the second one on NATO’s borders.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Obama has consistently said no military intervention, and as this unfolded. I can’t see how it did anything but encourage Putin as this unfolded.
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I don’t know, Gary. If Obama HAD threatened military intervention, I am not sure it would have deterred Putin. He had his troops right there, in Crimea, and next to it. By the time the US got there, it would be too late, anyway. And what about the Europeans? THEY should have spoken out more forcefully; they KNOW that the Ukraine and Poland have been used as battlefields for centuries.
 
GraceSofia said:
I don’t know, Gary. If Obama HAD threatened military intervention, I am not sure it would have deterred Putin. He had his troops right there, in Crimea, and next to it. By the time the US got there, it would be too late, anyway. And what about the Europeans? THEY should have spoken out more forcefully; they KNOW that the Ukraine and Poland have been used as battlefields for centuries.
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I think it could have mitigated part of the free reign. Here’s the thing, Its not so much threatening military intervention, it was completely ruling it out verbally which like I was saying, I can’t see how it helped.

The Europeans have various ideas and by large have a larger issue and different military, social and economic dynamics, I think this also reinforced Putins thinking of the West and in particular Europe as being weak which left him with opportunity.

In the case of Germany. Putin isn’t out of touch with reality. His reality is beyond Merkel’s comprehension as its another book he is reading as opposed to hers with Western thinking and democracy. He has stated Ukraine has the same soul of Russia, they are one, there is no reason to believe he won’t do all possible to make this a reality.
 
GaryTaylor said:
I think it could have mitigated part of the free reign. Here’s the thing, Its not so much threatening military intervention, it was completely ruling it out verbally which like I was saying, I can’t see how it helped.
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No, it didn’t help. Not clever international diplomatic chess-playing. He also needs to lose “crossing lines” from his vocabulary. Every time he says that now, people snigger.
In the case of Germany. Putin isn’t out of touch with reality. His reality is beyond Merkel’s comprehension as its another book he is reading as opposed to hers with Western thinking and democracy. He has stated Ukraine has the same soul of Russia, they are one, there is no reason to believe he won’t do all possible to make this a reality.
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Yes, when I read that quote from Merkel, my thought was that she is the one out of touch with reality.
 
GraceSofia said:
These Ukrainian servicemen are in a bad situation. If Yanukovych is re-instated by Russian might, then they could be in trouble for not obeying these Russian demands.

That’s an interesting analogy especially since I have read of plans (dreams?) by Hispanic groups to take over the southern U.S.

Russia has a very rich elite, a thin band at the top of society, and then masses of poor struggling people. It is a very corrupt country, even to the point of bribery needed and widespread for things like getting into university, which Westerners would find hard to fathom.

The Ukrainians look to Europe as being able to bring them more rule of law, more economic security, and less corruption (although sadly I fear that they are right now going to learn that Europe does not act according to morality, and merely joining the EU does not solve indiginous corruption problems, as we saw the Greeks carried on with their established ways of doing business). Cypriots joined the EU because they believed (wrongly-- it was wishful thinking) that the EU would force the Turkish army of occupation out of Cyprus. I think people often have unrealistic, high expectations of what EU membership will bring them, but you can’t blame them for wanting a higher standard of living.

Regarding corruption, in the 2010 index, Russia was WAY down at #154th most corrupt country. European countries score much higher. transparency.org/cpi2010/results/

In English: euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/appeal-of-ukrainian-churches-and-religious-organizations-regarding-foreign-aggression/comment-page-1/

Let the Europeans do it. Why should American soldiers die over this, if the Europeans want to sit safe at home? Looks like the UK is squirrely on sanctions even:
UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London
Not the EU? The Americans should refuse to join this fight, IMO.
Old Polish proverb: Not my circus, not my monkeys.

(Let me clarify, I do think the US should help Ukraine as it is able through non-military means, not risking American lives, but should make the Europeans and British step up and LEAD on this. The EU benefits from Americans always leading, always sacrificing, AND getting the hatred of the world because of it. Everybody loves to hate Americans, but they’re quite happy to benefit from her actions, is my opinion).
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I think you are reading the Transparency report incorrectly…
Number 1 is not the most corrupt, it’s the most transparent.
 
dskysmine said:
I think you are reading the Transparency report incorrectly…
Number 1 is not the most corrupt, it’s the most transparent.
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Right, #1 is most transparent/least corrupt. Russia is way down on the list.
 
Just saying, Putin’s explaination is by far the most resonable comment on the situation so far. I think we should learn for the previous “up-risings” in the middle east. Every country there that experianced revolution included violence. Why does Ukraine have to depose its leader violently? It wasn’t a dictatorship. What real reason is there for an uprising in Ukraine over a vote at elections? Seems to me, if a potentailly hostile government suddenly came to power at ones door step, one would want to be prepared for the worst. And it turns out that the “masked troops” are probably not from the Russian Federation, they be “Russian” (Crimean/pro-Russian Ukrainians/Russian Ukrainians) but Russian military personal are confined to the military bases. I think it is also noteworthy that it was Ukraine that started that scaremongering about war. So far it appears Russia is right.

Look at the end of the day its not a game of Football, its not about supporting a team, its about ensuring human rights for Ukrainians. They have the right to life and to be politically stable. Currently that is not the case. We should refrane from trying to say “US is Evil” “UK are Conspiritors” “Israeli False Flag” “Islamic Undercover” “Russian Aggression” “Ukrainian Maddness” “Danish secret nationalist spys” “Chinese Interferance” or any of the other stupid stuff that flouts around.

Can we not just listen first before starting wars and making enimies?
 
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