Ukraine

[GaryTaylor]

GraceSofia;11766205:

Same old, same old MSM spinning.

Terrible journalism, its Obama dictation. Its not hard to see this on both sides of the fence. Its also not hard to see “why” right wing Russia’s are inclined to think as they do. Many here prefer an Isolationist approach and have little use for Obamas social experiment.

I don’t see all wrong with Russian Nationalists, I don’t see all right at the end of the day with Obama. There’s much to think about for Eastern Russians in Ukraine.

 

[Vouthon]

*

Terrible journalism, its Obama dictation. Its not hard to see this on both sides of the fence. Its also not hard to see “why” right wing Russia’s are inclined to think as they do. Many here prefer an Isolationist approach and have little use for Obamas social experiment.

I don’t see all wrong with Russian Nationalists, I don’t see all right at the end of the day with Obama. There’s much to think about for Eastern Russians in Ukraine.*

I certainly have nothing against ethnic groups having the right to self-determination, however I do not think that occupation by troops from a foreign country is particularly helpful to their claims. In Scotland, where I come from, we have a nationalist party in power that last year negotiated a referendum with the British government which will ask we, the populace, to decide whether we wish to remain in the union. We didn’t involve a foreign power in our internal constitutional affairs nor would we have expected one to think it had the lawful right to occupy Scotland.

Putin has allowed his troops to takeover an entire region of another country on the basis of apparently non-existent violence towards ethnic Russians. Legal borders are not always defined by ethnicity. Russia cannot claim a right to protect Russians not within its own borders. That is a ludicrous notion that, if applied universally, would cause the breakdown of the world political order.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

GaryTaylor;11766253:

I certainly have nothing against ethnic groups having the right to self-determination, however I do not think that occupation by troops from a foreign country is particularly helpful to their claims. In Scotland, where I come from, we have a nationalist party in power that last year negotiated a referendum with the British government which will ask we, the populace, to decide whether we wish to remain in the union. We didn’t involve a foreign power in our internal constitutional affairs nor would we have expected one to think it had the lawful right to occupy Scotland.

Putin has allowed his troops to takeover an entire region of another country on the basis of apparently non-existent violence towards ethnic Russians. Legal borders are not always defined by ethnicity. Russia cannot claim a right to protect Russians not within its own borders. That is a ludicrous notion that, if applied universally, would cause the breakdown of the world political order.

Just give up. It’s apparent that Russia can apparently do no wrong. Give it time and we’ll see people justifying the eventual puppet state Russia is going to form in an “independent” Crimea.

 

[danrooke]

GaryTaylor;11766253:

I certainly have nothing against ethnic groups having the right to self-determination, however I do not think that occupation by troops from a foreign country is particularly helpful to their claims. In Scotland, where I come from, we have a nationalist party in power that last year negotiated a referendum with the British government which will ask we, the populace, to decide whether we wish to remain in the union. We didn’t involve a foreign power in our internal constitutional affairs nor would we have expected one to think it had the lawful right to occupy Scotland.

Putin has allowed his troops to takeover an entire region of another country on the basis of apparently non-existent violence towards ethnic Russians. Legal borders are not always defined by ethnicity. Russia cannot claim a right to protect Russians not within its own borders. That is a ludicrous notion that, if applied universally, would cause the breakdown of the world political order.

the question is, are they Russian troops? Russia says no - Putin says no. But you say yes. please, therefore, provide evidence that the majority of the forces, in a region which has politically professed its desire for Russian citizenship, are actually official Russian Federation Forces?

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Here’s an op-ed/news analysis piece from Time Magazine yesterday that might be worth discussing – “4 Reasons Putin is Already Losing in Ukraine.”

world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/

Here’s a snippet:

At home, this intervention looks to be one of the most unpopular decisions Putin has ever made. The Kremlin’s own pollster released a survey on Monday that showed 73% of Russians reject it.

If those statistics are correct – and one would think the source doesn’t have an incentive to deflate the numbers – that’s pretty striking.

(Fwiw, the economic stats referenced in the linked op-ed are somewhat different today as the markets have rebounded a bit, though not entirely…)

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

the question is, are they Russian troops? Russia says no - Putin says no. But you say yes. please, therefore, provide evidence that the majority of the forces, in a region which has politically professed its desire for Russian citizenship, are actually official Russian Federation Forces?

So those people that are allegedly local self-defense forces just happen to be accompanied by personnel carriers with Russian military license plates?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Vouthon;11766269:

Just give up. It’s apparent that Russia can apparently do no wrong. Give it time and we’ll see people justifying the eventual puppet state Russia is going to form in an “independent” Crimea.

Its what we are going to have to do. I think so also.

 

[J_Peterson]

So those people that are allegedly local self-defense forces just happen to be accompanied by personnel carriers with Russian military license plates?

Also, reporters have asked them outright and some have admitted to being Russian.

 

[pepipop]

GaryTaylor;11766253:

I certainly have nothing against ethnic groups having the right to self-determination, however I do not think that occupation by troops from a foreign country is particularly helpful to their claims. In Scotland, where I come from, we have a nationalist party in power that last year negotiated a referendum with the British government which will ask we, the populace, to decide whether we wish to remain in the union. We didn’t involve a foreign power in our internal constitutional affairs nor would we have expected one to think it had the lawful right to occupy Scotland.

Putin has allowed his troops to takeover an entire region of another country on the basis of apparently non-existent violence towards ethnic Russians. Legal borders are not always defined by ethnicity. Russia cannot claim a right to protect Russians not within its own borders. That is a ludicrous notion that, if applied universally, would cause the breakdown of the world political order.

Yes but this situation is different. Hard to give an example, but if Northern Ireland had left British rule and went independent, with it’s own government that after a few years was overthrown, through riots, etc, and a new government put in place. I could see both sides asking assistance, according to their respective alliances, i.e. nationalists would ask Ireland to help and the unionists, Great Britain. Russia and Ukraine have a lot of history together with Putin mentioning in his talk today that 3.5 million Ukrainians emigrated to Russia last year, alone. So it’s not so clearly cut and dried.

 

[danrooke]

So those people that are allegedly local self-defense forces just happen to be accompanied by personnel carriers with Russian military license plates?

Did the Ukraine ever buy military equipment China? From England? From Russia? it is possible.

 

[pepipop]

Here’s an op-ed/news analysis piece from Time Magazine yesterday that might be worth discussing – “4 Reasons Putin is Already Losing in Ukraine.”

world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/

*Here’s a snippet:

If those statistics are correct – and one would think the source doesn’t have an incentive to deflate the numbers – that’s pretty striking.

(Fwiw, the economic stats referenced in the linked op-ed are somewhat different today as the markets have rebounded a bit, though not entirely…)*

I read through it earlier today and then got to the comments section at the btm, from Russians or people living in that region needless to say all refuted the information in the article.

 

[gilliam]

BBC:
Russian President Vladimir Putin earlier denied that troops surrounding bases in Crimea were Russian, instead he said they were “pro-Russian self-defence forces”. But the BBC’s Mark Lowen and his team managed to speak to one of the heavily armed soldiers blockading the military base in the town of Bakhchisarai, central Crimea, yesterday, who said he was a Russian soldier “usually based in Sevastopol”.

---

Asked whether he thought it was right that Russian soldiers were barricading troops of the Ukrainian army in sovereign military bases of the Republic of Ukraine, the soldier said: “If you ask me as a person, then no it’s not right. But I’m following orders.”

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Did the Ukraine ever buy military equipment China? From England? From Russia? it is possible.

The easiest way to determine who a particular military vehicle belongs to is to look at the markings on it. A non-Russian military vehicle would not have Russian markings or plates on it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Vouthon;11766269:

Yes but this situation is different. Hard to give an example, but if Northern Ireland had left British rule and went independent, with it’s own government that after a few years was overthrown, through riots, etc, and a new government put in place. I could see both sides asking assistance, according to their respective alliances, i.e. nationalists would ask Ireland to help and the unionists, Great Britain. Russia and Ukraine have a lot of history together with Putin mentioning in his talk today that 3.5 million Ukrainians emigrated to Russia last year, alone. So it’s not so clearly cut and dried.

Pretty clear to me, there are two horses in the race. One belongs to Putin. Be I agree with him or not doesn’t change this. If one is arguing for a Russian Nationalist agenda, then what about the suppression of minorities in Georgia, what about freedom of speech, religion, and equal rights?

I could appeal to my nationalist thinking here also and be just as hard headed and the same. That’s not real; freedom though. That’s an ideal which is rooted in superior thinking of ethnic culture which has no regard for anyone “different”.

This is drawing battle lines at borders with ultimate control and “called” some form of freedom.

 

[gilliam]

Reporter for The Guardian confirms Russian Infantry blocking buildings:

twitter.com/mfisheroverseas/status/440846161071837184/photo/1
twitter.com/mfisheroverseas/status/440848375236542464/photo/1
twitter.com/mfisheroverseas/status/440846888158638080/photo/1

 

[pepipop]

pepipop;11766314:

Pretty clear to me, there are two horses in the race. One belongs to Putin. Be I agree with him or not doesn’t change this. If one is arguing for a Russian Nationalist agenda, then what about the suppression of minorities in Georgia, what about freedom of speech, religion, and equal rights?

I could appeal to my nationalist thinking here also and be just as hard headed and the same. That’s not real; freedom though. That’s an ideal which is rooted in superior thinking of ethnic culture which has no regard for anyone “different”.

This is drawing battle lines at borders with ultimate control and “called” some form of freedom.

I am useless at politics and retaining historical facts, so this is my own observation. What should Putin do, wait until the UN and whoever else think they can ‘save’ the Ukrainians to come in and offer their aid and assistance? I am quite sure other countries’ reasons will not be to ensure ‘freedom’ for the people of Ukraine either - it will be for whatever they can get out of situation for themselves. If Putin stays in Crimea well it’s then obvious he wishes to retain the existing agreement, to have the Russian naval fleet there. I doubt he will want Crimea to become part of Russia, but I am not surprised he has put down his marker to retain an agreement that he already has in place, due to the recent unrest in Ukraine.

 

[gilliam]

CNN presenters Christiane Amanpour and Wolf Blitzer got embroiled in an on-air spat over CNN’s coverage of the Ukraine crisis on Monday. Ms Amanpour took exception to Mr Blitzer’s repetition of a quote by the Russian ambassador to the UN, who had called pro-European Ukrainians “anti-Semites and fascists”. You can watch Christiane Amanpour’s reaction here.

 

[tomarin]

I am useless at politics and retaining historical facts, so this is my own observation. What should Putin do, wait until the UN and whoever else think they can ‘save’ the Ukrainians to come in and offer their aid and assistance?

There’s never been any evidence presented that the Russians in Ukraine have anything to fear from the new Ukrainian government. It’s all just a pretext to invade and grab land, a classic casus belli.

 

[Miserissima]

Ukrainian troops in Crimea who fear political reprisals based on what they do or don’t do should be offered transit out of Crimea by sea to NATO territory. It could all be billed as a humanitarian intervention.

There, perhaps they could be re-armed and made into a ready-made paramilitary reserve, similar to the way anti-Castro Cubans were in the early sixties. And make Europe foot part of the bill for this one.

This stops well-short of anything truly aggressive, yet lets Putin know there WILL be a price to be paid for further Russian meddling on behalf of local tyrants.

By “truly aggressive,” I assume you mean no further loss of life.

How about ethnic Russians in Ukrainian territory who don’t want to be Ukrainian anymore are repatriated to Russia?

I’m not being sarcastic, I promise. Ukraine doesn’t have the time or resources to take a poll, hire the buses, repair the radio equipment in the airport radio towers, and put people on the same unmarked planes on which the Russian troops flew in.

As an American, in the “melting pot,” it’s a tricky thing for me to say “go back to where you came from” to other citizens. However, if the ethnic Canadians settle in Maine and take advantage of unrest in DC to get the Canadian government to come in and “protect them…” the state of Maine is American territory.

 

[GaryTaylor]

GaryTaylor;11766393:

I am useless at politics and retaining historical facts, so this is my own observations. What should Putin do, wait until the UN and whoever else think they can ‘save’ the Ukrainians to come in and offer their aid and assistance? I am quite sure other countries’ reasons will not be to ensure ‘freedom’ for the people of Ukraine either - it will be for whatever they can get out of situation for themselves. If Putin stays in Crimea well it’s then obvious he wishes to retain the existing agreement, to have the Russian naval fleet there. I doubt he will want Crimea to become part of Russia, but I am not surprised he has put down his marker to retain an agreement that he already has in place, due to the recent unrest in Ukraine.

The Ukrainians don’t need to be saved from anyone, that’s the whole point, Putin said he will rush in with the military if “his brothers” need help? Who, who are his brothers, do you get to pick and choose them? Who’s our brothers and sisters in America? The Nationalist Russians? Everyone is our brothers and sisters, and they vary in collective thinking as we see.

Putin said he has no intention to annex Crimea, yet he has two war ships blocking the straight so the Ukraine vessels can’t pass. Its a Putin police state and he seems to be doing one thing while talking down the situation to de-escalate the violence. He’s going for sainthood with no shots fired in his imagination I believe.