Ukraine

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We shouldn’t disrespect Russia. We just need to be smarter. Or at least as smart. Or maybe learn from them how to look beyond 10 years politically. 🤷

I think our first move should be to oust our current CICOTUS.
 
news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2014-03/04/c_133160333.htm

“Those troops have been deployed there long before the recent events. And they may legally stay there until 2042. So they pose no threat to Ukraine,” said Kozin, who is also a Russian Academy of Military Sciences professor.

All Russian troops deployed in Crimea were attached to the Black Sea Fleet, in accordance with agreements signed between Moscow and Kiev following the breakup of the Soviet Union, the expert said.

According to the agreements, Russia has a right to move its personnel between its coastal facilities, for example from Kerch to Sevastopol in Crimea.

Kozin said the legal status of Russian troops in Crimea had been restricted to protection and servicing of the Black Sea Fleet stationed in the peninsula, adding they could not occupy any facilities not belonging to the fleet’s infrastructure.

“Until recently, no frictions have ever appeared between Russian and Ukrainian military personnel. They used to hold joint drills and military parades, and participate in anti-terror operations,” Kozin said.

:hmmm:
Yeh, hmmm. You should note xinhua net is the official press agency of Communist China, so no surprise in their, ahem, report.

The Russian navy stationed at the Black Sea in Crimea (on land leased from Ukraine) was completely unfettered by anybody and remains unfettered but now Putin decided to send in troops from Russia proper, without insignia or identification, into Crimea, take over territory (basically all of Crimea) which did not belong to Russia’s Black Sea Fleet, surround Ukrainian soldiers, confine them to barracks (the Ukrainian soldiers’ wives today tried to sneak food in their husbands’ barracks - they are prisoners), block the Ukrainian navy, prevent them from working, shoot live rounds in the air and threaten to shoot Ukrainian soldiers directly. How is this not an invasion? It’s liable to result in bloodshed what with the shenanigans these Russian military and toughs accompanying them are doing. And Russian state media has the nerve to say the Ukrainian armed forces are surrendering in droves and joining the Russians. It’s like Soviet dezinformatsiya from the days of old, but the world isn’t buying it, though Russians who rely on Russian state news evidently are.

Lavrov should be bluntly confronted tomorrow by the West as ambassador Zorin was during the Cuban missile crisis about his lies about no missile in Cuba.

I believe the Ukrainian Navy stationed at the Black Sea basically came out and called Putin a liar yesterday officially for saying the masked men with machine guns, r.p.g.s, armoured vehicles surrounding them are just local self-defense units. How is Putin not lying? How is Russian foreign minister Lavrov not lying when he repeats Putin’s, ahem, explanation?

Putin is busing in people from Russia proper to places like Donetsk in Eastern Ukraine to tear down Ukrainian flags and raise Russian ones, completely destabilizing the situation. As I said yesterday, most Eastern Ukrainians realize they are part of Ukraine. Chants of “Russia, Russia” or “Putin, Putin” have never really been heard in Eastern Ukraine before until all these buses of people from Russia started arriving in Donetsk and Kharkiv and Odesa.

Of course Yanukovych was Putin’s man. Putin really doesn’t care how immoral the leader of a foreign neighboring country is, as long as he remains subservient to him.

It’s like some commentator said on TV today, Putin is a bully with thin skin, and these are the worst bullies in my opinion because they act on instinct and are easily insulted (which is why Putin doesn’t allow political comedy shows making fun of him on Russian TV). Putin may be a good tactician, but he is a terrible strategist and I am afraid that there is a real possibility of much bloodshed now, but God I hope not.
 
Yeh, hmmm. You should note xinhua net is the official press agency of Communist China, so no surprise in their, ahem, report.

The Russian navy was completely unfettered by anybody and remains unfettered but now Putin decided to send in troops from Russia proper, without insignia or identification, into Crimea, take over territory (basically all of Crimea) which did not belong to Russia’s Black Sea Fleet, surround Ukrainian soldiers, confine them to barracks (the Ukrainian soldiers’ wives today tried to sneak food in their husbands’ barracks - they are prisoners), block the Ukrainian navy, prevent them from working, shoot live rounds in the air and threaten to shoot Ukrainian soldiers directly. How is this not an invasion? It’s liable to result in bloodshed what with the shenanigans these Russian military and toughs accompanying them are doing. And Russian state media has the nerve to say the Ukrainian armed forces are surrendering in droves and joining the Russians. It’s like Soviet dezinformatsiya from the days of old, but the world isn’t buying it, though Russians who rely on Russian state news evidently are.

Lavrov should be bluntly confronted tomorrow by the West as ambassador Zorin was during the Cuban missile crisis about his lies about these armed thugs.

I believe the Ukrainian Navy stationed at the Black Sea basically came out and called Putin a liar yesterday officially for saying the masked men with machine guns, r.p.g.s, armoured vehicles surrounding them are just local self-defense units. How is Putin not lying? How is Russian foreign minister Lavrov not lying when he repeats Putin’s, ahem, explanation?

Putin is busing in people from Russia proper to places like Donetsk in Eastern Ukraine to tear down Ukrainian flags and raise Russian ones, completely destabilizing the situation. As I said yesterday, most Eastern Ukrainians realize they are part of Ukraine. Chants of “Russia, Russia” or “Putin, Putin” have never really been heard in Eastern Ukraine before until all these buses of people from Russia started arriving in Donetsk and Kharkiv and Odesa.

Of course Yanukovych was Putin’s man. Putin really doesn’t care how immoral the leader of a foreign neighboring country is, as long as he remains subservient to him.
When Obama bombed Libya, his people called it “kinetic action” not a bombing or an invasion.

He got re-elected. :sadyes:

The way this is being done is nothing more than semantics, but semantics work on numb electorates. That’s why leaders and administrations will play around like that. It blunts the sword of criticism because “the people” as they are called in democracies will consider that it’s not a traditional invasion.

Tactics like this also blunt public rage, particularly some of those who disagree with war.

But make no mistake: Ukrainian territory has been violated.
 
But make no mistake: Ukrainian territory has been violated.
Yes, and it is in clear violation of the Budapest Treaty which Ukraine, Russia, the US, and the UK signed in 1994 on the inviolability of Ukraine’s borders, under which Ukraine surrendered its nuclear arsenal which it inherited from the Soviet Union to Russia.
 
They [the Ukrainians] have had a long hard path to independence. They over threw their last government and are looking forward to free elections soon. Wanting to forsake Russia, and join the EU is a choice they have made. We should all join in support.

Putin, as we all know is trying to build a Russian empire run at least partially as a capitalist endeavor. Taking control of former soviet satelites is certainly on his to-do list. The world has stood by while he invaded Georgia, and we are preparing to stand by for his taking of the Crimea. As I listen to the things he says. Lying to the world, and claiming things that are patently not true. He is statrting to sound like a Saddam Hussein, or a Moammar Gadhafi. In other words a Deranged Bully Boy. As we see, Russians (the ones with money anyway) have had a taste of the life that western civilization has to offer. If the world can get it’s collective act together and intitute financial, sanctions. Vlad. Putins career may come to a screeching halt. A stable, and participatory Russia then may appear.

ATB
👍

Ukrainians don’t want autocracy but rule of law. Putin’s state really doesn’t practice the latter as even the former President of Russia Medvedev and today’s Prime Minister (Putin’s puppet now) admitted when he complained about the “legal nihilism” plaguing Russia some years ago. I note Medvedev no longer says things along these lines critical of Putin’s system. Medvedev was president, in name for four years, before Putin single-handedly took back the office and changed the constitution which will allow him to rule Russia until 2024, a quarter century - basically a dictator for life. Who knows how much wealth he hasn’t accumulated along with his oligarch friends during all this time. Ukrainians do not want such a system, but want finally to have rulers accountable to them, the people, and not have interior ministry troops come in and falsify elections, beat up people for Yanukovych, bribe and threaten voters, as Yanukovych did back in 2012 in parliamentary elections in Ukraine. Most want an end to the Soviet mind-set which still plagues so much of the former Soviet Union.
 
It’s like some commentator said on TV today, Putin is a bully with thin skin, and these are the worst bullies in my opinion because they act on instinct and are easily insulted (which is why Putin doesn’t allow political comedy shows making fun of him on Russian TV). Putin may be a good tactician, but he is a terrible strategist and I am afraid that there is a real possibility of much bloodshed now, but God I hope not.
It was Hillary Clinton who made the comment 3-5-14 in response to her clarification of a Hitler Putin comparison. Which both Russia and the US have made in regard to Germany 1930. Bottom line in her clarification is “we have to protect my people” as Putin/Hitler stated. She comes to the point that " we should learn from the tactic used before"

These conversations have been proceeding for over a week and by BOTH Russia and the USA… The point isn’t to elevate Putin to a level of established evil achieved by Hitler, but to understand better a similar set of circumstances as not to repeat a cycle again.

All Hitler did was legal and was his claim also. Be it Putin has a party line all state employees of Russia follow as a state, this is a known, its apparent by the links I posted especially with RT-America. Same with MSN.

If Putin is in fact proceeding along legal lines is debatable. Its not a matter of if we think its legal or not. Its the point Putin claims its legal and Russia backs him and at this point he is adding an imperative piece to the puzzle of Russia in Crimea. Not hard to see what his plan is. Its been on-going as Georgia was also an imperative piece to the plan.

Of course there is the party line Obama has a party line as Putin, and there’s a million other opinions and while many may see through all that, there are those on “both” side who won’t.

Its well and fine to believe this is an injustice for peace and freedom and for the interconnected world East West, but Putin has a different vision of “his People” just like Hitler did.

In other words my dear friend., we all know he’s wrong here, but we are left with a Dictator living out his vision of Russia and at this very moment. He has taken your country, Russia and the US hostage. And international dialogue as we seen in Paris yesterday amounts to very little for the simple reason as just as with Georgia Putin is not finished in Ukraine thus really not ready to communicate.
 
We shouldn’t disrespect Russia. We just need to be smarter. Or at least as smart. Or maybe learn from them how to look beyond 10 years politically. 🤷

I think our first move should be to oust our current CICOTUS.
This is an issue with Government Reps in the US who “ALL” have something different to say. Its indicative of no consensus in the US government and lacking leadership. On the other hand we see very little of this in the Russian state.

However I disagree we should handle a dictator with kid gloves which I’m sure that’s not what your suggesting. Course this was the debate all day on US media yesterday and exemplified by Clintons clarification from which she made the statement early “then” spent the rest of the day in clarification of what she meant. Freedom of speech is a fact of life in America. And frankly I defend and value that right. And of course there’s a polite way to proceed.
 
For now it seems, they are keeping a low profile and forming some self-defense units to work with the Ukrainian government.
rferl.org/content/crimean-tatar-leader-tells-people-to-stay-at-home-avoid-confrontations/25282669.html
“I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government which whitewashes the actions of Putin,” Wahl said, explaining that her grandparents emigrated from Hungary to the U.S. to escape oppression at the hands of the Soviet Union. “I’m proud to be an American, and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why, after this newscast, I’m resigning.”

rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/05/rt-anchor-liz-wahl-quits-on-air-over-whitewashing-of-putins-actions-against-crimea/
Wow. Nice to see someone with principles. 👍
 
Wow. Nice to see someone with principles. 👍
That’s two in a week for RT, Wahl did an in depth interview with CNN last night which was revealing of the dynamics of RT and its Russian management. Basically its the same propaganda program we hear from Russia in regards to the USA which is constant condemnation. Russian state ran propaganda machine.
 
Crimea MPs vote to join Russia

MPs in the southern Ukrainian region of Crimea have voted to formally become part of the Russian Federation. Parliament said the decision would be put to the Crimean people for their verdict in a referendum on 16 March. - BBC
:extrahappy:
 
Crimea MPs vote to join Russia

MPs in the southern Ukrainian region of Crimea have voted to formally become part of the Russian Federation. Parliament said the decision would be put to the Crimean people for their verdict in a referendum on 16 March. - BBC
Probably a foregone conclusion how the vote will go.
Interesting. So Mexico could use the same method to take over New Mexico and California.
I suppose the Turks are loving it and wondering if the time is right to officially make northern Cyprus a province of Turkey.

I can’t blame Putin for acting in his country’s best interests, but I am not happy about this.
 
Well he is local, as his brigade is based in Sevastopol, and he is qualified to command defensive forces. So what’s wrong?
What’s wrong is the dishonesty and the intent to mislead.

Reminds me of when Saddam Hussein showed a column of military vehicles going down the highway in Kuwait and said his troops were leaving Kuwait City. Um, yeah, but after a couple of kilometers they looped around and came back in.

But hey, the troops left! 😉
 
What’s wrong is the dishonesty and the intent to mislead
Well, if international militants in Syria are known to the civilized world as “Syrian rebels”, then there can be nothing more Ukrainian than this marine. He even lived in the country for a few years, he didn’t just arrive there to fight for its future!
As for Hussein, I remember a certain “proof” of him having WMD and a a certain invasion and hanging that followed. These dictators know nothing of honesty :sad_yes:
 
dictators know nothing of honesty :sad_yes:

To the contrary, they’re very adept at media soon and suppressing opposition because they know the truth. 😦
 
Probably a foregone conclusion how the vote will go.
Interesting. So Mexico could use the same method to take over New Mexico and California.
I suppose the Turks are loving it and wondering if the time is right to officially make northern Cyprus a province of Turkey.

I can’t blame Putin for acting in his country’s best interests, but I am not happy about this.
It’s similar to the Northern Irish situation. Citizens in the 6 counties of Ireland that were left under GB rule, had no choice who they preferred to be governed by. I am certain there will be Russians in the Ukraine in exactly the same position.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_sovereignty_referendum,_1973

On 23 January 1973, the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) called on its members “to ignore completely the referendum and reject this extremely irresponsible decision by the British Government”. Gerry Fitt, leader of the SDLP, said he had organised a boycott to stop an escalation in violence.[2]
The civil authorities were prepared for violence on polling day. They had put in place mobile polling stations which could be rushed into use if there was bomb damage to scheduled poll buildings.[3] Two days before the referendum a British soldier, Guardsman Anton Brown of the 2nd Battalion, Coldstream Guards was shot dead in Belfast as the army searched for weapons and explosives which could be used to disrupt the upcoming referendum.[3]


There was one referendum in 1973, requested by the GB government and voted with a resounding ‘let’s stay with Britain’. However the demographics have changed a lot since then, it’s nearly 50/50 and also Ireland is now seen as economically viable, as NI, which in the '70’s it wasn’t.

If, NI had ever become independent and had it’s own government, which after riots was dissolved and a self elected government put in place, (NI) would be totally up in the air. Then a referendum would be the best solution, 1) do they wish to be with Ireland, 2) to re-elect their own government or 3) be ruled again by GB (assuming GB or Ireland would want them). There will always be losers, but the majority then makes the decision.
 
I think many people on this thread, understandably so, are falling into Cold War rhetoric. Russia is not the Soviet Union any more. America is not the international bee’s knees. All this stuff on the news is very disturbing, nobody is addressing the key problem, is the government in Kiev legitimate? It is becoming increasingly clear that the so call Russian troops around Crimea are actually Crimean’s - who, because they support unification Crimean autonomy and wish to be part of the Russian Federation, might be calling themselves Russian. In fact, it makes the most sense.

I have no idea why, but it’s clear that there has been a very quick and loud response from America and western politics supported by their associated state media - BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky News for us and I’m sure there are ones supporting Ukrainian pro-European anti-Russian governments, as well in USA, France, Germany etc.

So I call for care, it’s just the same kind of quick response which characterises the way the secular news reports on the Church. I’m sick of this. This will be a war if the west is not going to LISTEN. Dialogue! Dialogue! Not “AHAH YOU EVIL RUSSIANS”, I would condemn the same of Russia, but WAIT, they are not doing the same thing.

People keep saying that Putin’s argument (which Russia denies) for troops in Crimea is “protecting ethnic Russians.” Putin is not saying that, his main reason for leaving the door open for military action, which he has not taken yet, is due their belief that the current government in Kiev is illegitimate.

Well obviously it is. They didn’t vote out the president, they forced him out. It has been discovered that the “police” who shot protesters were actually agents paid for by the nationalist groups during the protests. The same nationalist groups who are now in power. They caught the guys who did the shootings.

Please for the Lords sake, all of you. STOP BANGING THE DRUM OF WAR. Otherwise you’ll end up getting war. Instead just pray, and leave it at that. Don’t even bother with the propaganda of BOTH sides. PRAY. Please!

Dearest Lord,

We pray for your children in the Ukraine, who are going through a turbulent time. We ask The Lord to have mercy on them, to forgive the transgressions of some of their children and those committed by other nations. Protect the people there from the threat of war.

God the Father, have mercy on us and your people
God the Son, have mercy on us and your people
God the Holy Spirit, have mercy on us and you people

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name,
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
Amen

Let us ask Our Lady to intercede for the end of tension and the end of warmongering intentions:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art Thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners
Now
And at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Glory be to the Father,
And the Son,
And the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning
Is now and ever shall be,
World without end.
Amen.

Please Brothers and Sisters, only choose Christ, He is above America, UK, Russia, Ukraine and all the nations. God bless.
 
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