Ukraine

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I agree about the rhetoric, but examine where it comes from, strangely, in a different way than 20 - 70 years ago (in a way that we didn’t have in the cold war): we are so desperate for information that we get the news from slanted sources on both sides. With the Internet and the MHz channels almost instantly…whereas, spring the cold war, we got the spun up and/or sanitized version.
 
KyivAndrew said:
I believe the Ukrainian Navy stationed at the Black Sea basically came out and called Putin a liar yesterday officially for saying the masked men with machine guns, r.p.g.s, armoured vehicles surrounding them are just local self-defense units. How is Putin not lying? How is Russian foreign minister Lavrov not lying when he repeats Putin’s, ahem, explanation?

Putin is busing in people from Russia proper to places like Donetsk in Eastern Ukraine to tear down Ukrainian flags and raise Russian ones, completely destabilizing the situation. As I said yesterday, most Eastern Ukrainians realize they are part of Ukraine. Chants of “Russia, Russia” or “Putin, Putin” have never really been heard in Eastern Ukraine before until all these buses of people from Russia started arriving in Donetsk and Kharkiv and Odesa.
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If Russia takes over the primarily Russian speaking parts of Ukraine, Ukraine won’t have anyplace to dock its navy, because Ukraine will be landlocked. Maybe Putin will offer, for a price, to allow them to dock somewhere on the shore of Russian Crimea.
 
danrooke said:
It is becoming increasingly clear that the so call Russian troops around Crimea are actually Crimean’s -
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I’m not sure about that.
I have no idea why, but it’s clear that there has been a very quick and loud response from America and western politics supported by their associated state media - BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky News for us and I’m sure there are ones supporting Ukrainian pro-European anti-Russian governments, as well in USA, France, Germany etc.
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Well, it seems (from the Nuland tapped tape) that they were stirring things in Ukraine.
People keep saying that Putin’s argument (which Russia denies) for troops in Crimea is “protecting ethnic Russians.” Putin is not saying that, his main reason for leaving the door open for military action, which he has not taken yet, is due their belief that the current government in Kiev is illegitimate.
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Remember this? “Russian President Vladimir Putin told U.S. President Barack Obama that Moscow reserved the right to protect its interests and those of Russian speakers in Ukraine if they come under threat, the Kremlin said.” ~ Reuters
Well obviously it is. They didn’t vote out the president, they forced him out. It has been discovered that the “police” who shot protesters were actually agents paid for by the nationalist groups during the protests. The same nationalist groups who are now in power. They caught the guys who did the shootings.
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I’m not sure about this. There is massive propaganda going on.

I feel sorry for the Ukrainians. It’s possible that without the Crimea, the state of Ukraine will not be viable, especially if Putin uses other punishments. If the US and EU really did foment this uprising in Kiev (and I’m not convinced), then it is a sad commentary on them-- messing about with other people’s lives. 😦
 
Seamus_L said:
While I don’t agree with every word in the article, it’s good to see Fox News correspondent former judge Andrew Napolitano come right out and say that President Yanukhovych was legally elected and that the US was behind the coup that toppled him foxnews.com/opinion/2014/03/06/monster-putin-could-ukraine-standoff-have-been-avoided-by-obama/
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  1. The Ukrainian’s were not induced to overthrow Yanukovich . They chose to take their country in a different direction.
  2. GW, as well as the rest of our allies acted on the intelligence they had available. Saddam would not allow inspections of his facilities and time simply ran out for him.
  3. Mubarak? Time will tell.
ATB
 
BBC: French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, who is currently hosting a ministerial meeting in Rome, says the proposed referendum in Crimea threatens Ukraine’s values: “Well that changes the system entirely because it would mean that the territorial integrity of Ukraine would not be respected and for us the territorial integrity of the country is fundamental.”
 
This is a comment from a Ukrainian, living outside Kiev, responding to the below linked telegraph article, and his observations about the ‘new’ government. There is also a video link, showing their behaviour, in Ukrainian. Whilst the Ukrainians wished to get rid of Yanukovich - the new government has not been legally or democratically elected. One comment being he understands why the Crimeans wish to defend themselves.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10679802/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html

Victor_from_Ukraine
I live 80 km from Kiev and just show the movie as the Nazis change the power on the ground in my town. This happens all over Ukraine but this pro-Western media do not tell . They show only the events in major cities. Group
of Nazi party “Svoboda” forced to sign the dismissal of the Mayor and
his deputies that have put their people under control . Illegally without municipal voting and decisions of local government session ! ! Then were covered with swastikas and runes stop toppled monuments . Smet Rector try and put " his " Nazi failed. Students drove them away . I hope this video will help you understand why people try to defend themselves in the Crimea
youtube.com/watch?v…
Threaten rasspravoy Vice measure. Scratching furniture. Beat disagree not on camera. You should know what is happening in small towns!!

Response to the video:
I do not speak Ukrainian, just a little of russian language, but there we can see mob going from one office to another and forcing people to resign from their positions in the name of “Maidantsi” Rada (Rada iz Ukrainian parliament). Reason for their insisting on his resign is his loss of “moral rights” to be there after ousting of Yanukovich.
First official refused signing but after 5 mins of video there was started pushing and threatening with shooting him.On the 8 minute he signed his “resign”. Then the second official tried to avoid “resigning process” but after the slamming with chair on the printer in front of him, he give up. Third one, who had seen all of this, signed without much resistance.
“Revolutionars” made video of all this to show their “heroism” to others…
Name of that little place in Ukraine could be translated as “White church”.
Long live democracy…
 
Mickey_Finn said:
  1. The Ukrainian’s were not induced to overthrow Yanukovich . They chose to take their country in a different direction.
  2. GW, as well as the rest of our allies acted on the intelligence they had available. Saddam would not allow inspections of his facilities and time simply ran out for him.
  3. Mubarak? Time will tell.
ATB
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I also think the way the judge ended his opinion on the world police myth is just a propaganda point of many of the US enemies. Fact is we are a world power as is Russia. I get turned off by statements as such.
 
Henry Kissinger:

Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:
  1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.
  2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.
  3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.
  4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.
washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html
 
This seems like an escalation to me:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
A shot of a Russian anti-submarine ship, which was apparently scuttled by Russian forces early on Thursday in a bid to trap Ukrainian vessels in a lake in western Crimea
 
Admittedly, I haven’t read all of the thread and in reality only the first page and a half or so;
But anyway, here’s my opinion:

Are we guilty of getting into Putin’s face?
Do we really know enough about an area of the world that’s been torn by invaders for centuries and even millennia by Ottomans, by Mongols and by Nazi Germany?
The Ukrainians along with most of the neighboring areas of that part of the world must have a closet reserved for affiliation flags which they must have had to change every time a new invader took charge of their lives
And the truth of the matter is that the Ukraine seems to me to be a pretty mixed up country even only recently having endured Chernobyl, one of the worst manmade disasters in history.

Is Putin lying?
Are there extremists, ultra nationalists, fascists and even Nazis in the Ukraine?
Here are some links you can ponder:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Ukraine
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bing.com/videos/search?q=ukrainian+protests&qpvt=ukrainian+protests&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=894412A07CBCED6866CB894412A07CBCED6866CB
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bing.com/videos/search?q=ukraine+nazi+collaborators&qpvt=ukraine+nazi+collaborators&FORM=VDRE
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bing.com/search?q=ukraine+nazi+collaborators&form=MSNH14&pc=MDMD&refig=eb73100b4074469bacebc1c5b8fe75ba&pq=ukraine+nazi&sc=3-12&sp=-1&qs=n&sk=&ghc=1
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In one of those links it says that ~75% of Ukrainians believe in God, yet the pie charge shows ~62% are non-believers.
Anyway, my opinion is that Obama does need to learn how to look before he leaps (same for Kerry) because Europe has become quite dependent on Russian gas lines for one item and we even have a GM plant in Saint Petersburg so it looks like we stand alone in any condemnation of Putin’s actions in the Crimea.

rex
 
  • BBC: ****
Mr Turchynov says the Ukrainian parliament will disband the Crimean parliament over its request to join Russia, in a live televised address shown on national TV, BBC Monitoring reports.
In a live address to the nation, interim Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov describes the Crimea referendum as “a farce and crime organised by the Russian forces”. It "contradicts the will of the Ukrainian people and the interests of Crimean residents, " he adds.
 
TaurusRex said:
Is Putin lying?
Are there extremists, ultra nationalists, fascists and even Nazis in the Ukraine?
Here are some links you can ponder:
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Rex,

It doesn’t matter, it isn’t Putin’s call. It is an internal affair of a sovereign nation. Russia invaded Ukraine, that is against International Law.

The US can’t invade Russia just because it thinks Russia is being run by crooks and thugs.
 
gilliam said:
  • BBC: ****
Mr Turchynov says the Ukrainian parliament will disband the Crimean parliament over its request to join Russia, in a live televised address shown on national TV, BBC Monitoring reports.
In a live address to the nation, interim Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov describes the Crimea referendum as “a farce and crime organised by the Russian forces”. It "contradicts the will of the Ukrainian people and the interests of Crimean residents, " he adds.
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I’m usually anti-Russian but if the Russian half of Ukraine wants to split away, the others who themselves usurped power have no leg to stand on.
 
gilliam said:
  • BBC: ****
Mr Turchynov says the Ukrainian parliament will disband the Crimean parliament over its request to join Russia, in a live televised address shown on national TV, BBC Monitoring reports.
In a live address to the nation, interim Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov describes the Crimea referendum as “a farce and crime organised by the Russian forces”. It "contradicts the will of the Ukrainian people and the interests of Crimean residents, " he adds.
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Pot, kettle, black comes to mind. His ‘government’ isn’t recognised, in many countries, around the world either.
 
gilliam said:
Henry Kissinger:

Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:
  1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.
  2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.
  3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.
  4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.
washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html
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Of course Russia can annex Crimea. What’s Kissinger going to do about it?
 
gilliam said:
BBC: French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, who is currently hosting a ministerial meeting in Rome, says the proposed referendum in Crimea threatens Ukraine’s values: “Well that changes the system entirely because it would mean that the territorial integrity of Ukraine would not be respected and for us the territorial integrity of the country is fundamental.”
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Yugoslavia?
Kosovo?
 
Tenofovir said:
I’m usually anti-Russian but if the Russian half of Ukraine wants to split away, the others who themselves usurped power have no leg to stand on.
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There is no “Russian half of Ukraine” it is all one country.

Just like there isn’t a “Hispanic part of the USA”
 
gilliam said:
So this is now a matter of power makes right?

We might as well scrap the UN and the Catholic doctrines on Social Justice.
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It was a response to Kissinger’s own might makes right “current world order” thing.
 
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