Ukraine

[GaryTaylor]

Are you saying Reagans evil empire 83 speech is back with a twist?

“Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness – pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the Earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world.”

“Eric Hoffer, in his book The True Believer, argues that mass movements like communism, fascism, and Nazism had a common trait in picturing Western democracies and their values as decadent, with people “too soft, too pleasure-loving and too selfish” to sacrifice for a higher cause, which for them implies an inner moral and biological decay. He further claims that those movements offered the prospect of a glorious future to frustrated people, enabling them to find a refuge from the lack of personal accomplishments in their individual existence. The individual is then assimilated into a compact collective body and “fact-proof screens from reality” are established”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

You have to wonder how much of this real and ingrained in older generations.

 

[pepipop]

Looks like Obama has consented to the Russian seizure of Crimea. He has endorsed the idea of a Crimean plebescite on the matter, only stipulating that “international observers” be present for it. So far Russia has refused to allow the observers, but Putin might well capitulate on that. After all, the election is only a few days away and Russia will probably control the outcome anyway. No time for anybody to organize anything, really, except the Russians who are already organized.

So, it seems the new “Munich agreement” has bought “peace in our time”. When the vote comes in, this government will grouse a bit, but then go on about its preferred business of “making utility bills skyrocket”, auditing conservative groups and imposing unconscionable mandates on the Catholic Church.

So, so the Crimeans have no say in this? They’re just sitting there waiting to be ‘captured’? They ASKED Putin to help them out, they don’t want to be part of Ukraine as it is too volatile with an unelected government running the show. They have a right to ask to leave the Ukraine and become independent, Scotland are doing it within Great Britain, it is their democratic right. The fact they wish to be governed by Russia is neither here nor there. I suppose they could have voted for independence first and then gone with Russia, makes no odds. Other countries under the rule of one other can take a referendum for their independence from that particular government. If Scotland became independent and then decided they wished to be ruled by ‘Canada’ for example. Who can stop them?

 

[GaryTaylor]

So, so the Crimeans have no say in this? They’re just sitting there waiting to be ‘captured’? They ASKED Putin to help them out, they don’t want to be part of Ukraine as it is too volatile with an unelected government running the show. They have a right to ask to leave the Ukraine and become independent, Scotland are doing it within Great Britain, it is their democratic right. The fact they wish to be governed by Russia is neither here nor there. I suppose they could have voted for independence first and then gone with Russia, makes no odds. Other countries under the rule of one other can take a referendum for their independence from that particular government. If Scotland became independent and then decided they wished to be ruled by ‘Canada’ for example. Who can stop them?

You have to wonder who “they” are. 40% speak Russian, add to this the minorities and ordinary Ukrainian/Russian citizens. It seems like a separatist and small radical agenda. This isn’t self determination by cooperation of consensus. And further all the youth interviewed insisted this is part of the older generations nationalistic learned behavior.

I don’t know, its one heck of a mess.

 

[tomarin]

So, so the Crimeans have no say in this? They’re just sitting there waiting to be ‘captured’? They ASKED Putin to help them out, they don’t want to be part of Ukraine as it is too volatile with an unelected government running the show. They have a right to ask to leave the Ukraine and become independent, Scotland are doing it within Great Britain, it is their democratic right. The fact they wish to be governed by Russia is neither here nor there. I suppose they could have voted for independence first and then gone with Russia, makes no odds. Other countries under the rule of one other can take a referendum for their independence from that particular government. If Scotland became independent and then decided they wished to be ruled by ‘Canada’ for example. Who can stop them?

I don’t see how a legitimate referendum can take place with so many armed Russian troops occupying the country. It’s highly irregular, and seems like they are rushing things. (Russian things.)

 

[pepipop]

I don’t see how a legitimate referendum can take place with so many armed Russian troops occupying the country. It’s highly irregular, and seems like they are rushing things. (Russian things.)

The reason the troops are there, are to protect Crimea to fend of a response to any attack to their bold move of wishing to leave the Ukraine. What do you think would have happened, in the current situation, an unelected government, just recently in power and Crimea said ‘we want out, we want our independence’, so ‘we’re holding a referendum’. I doubt there would be too friendly a response to that. 1) Because Ukraine is upside down at present with reported vigilante/nazi groups and 2) the new government would not wish to lose face and let Crimea go, hence they could have been infiltrated by Ukrainian troops and told, ‘no, you can’t be independent just stay as you are’.

IMO this is a good time for Crimea to get out (if the referendum, states this). Whether they all ‘like’ Russia or not is neither here nor there. People have to make a living, want a better standard of life - so what is their choice?

A bankrupt Ukraine that’s not too stable;
ruled by the EU that will give them austerity measures like they’ve never known before;
or go with their rich neighbour, who they’re already on good terms with due to the black sea fleet. and the Russian army presence already in the region.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

So, so the Crimeans have no say in this? They’re just sitting there waiting to be ‘captured’? They ASKED Putin to help them out, they don’t want to be part of Ukraine as it is too volatile with an unelected government running the show. They have a right to ask to leave the Ukraine and become independent, Scotland are doing it within Great Britain, it is their democratic right. The fact they wish to be governed by Russia is neither here nor there. I suppose they could have voted for independence first and then gone with Russia, makes no odds. Other countries under the rule of one other can take a referendum for their independence from that particular government. If Scotland became independent and then decided they wished to be ruled by ‘Canada’ for example. Who can stop them?

The UK.

ATB

 

[GaryTaylor]

MOSCOW—Russia’s state gas company accused Ukraine of failing to pay for natural gas and threatened to cut off the crucial energy supply to the crisis-stricken country, as the speaker of Russia’s upper house gave the strongest signal yet that Russia is preparing to absorb Ukraine’s southern region of Crimea.

marketwatch.com/story/russian-parliament-to-back-crimea-split-from-ukraine-2014-03-07

online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140307-706072.html

A U.S. warship crossed the Bosporus toward the Black Sea Friday afternoon, a Turkish official said, the latest symbol of heightened international tensions over Crimea. {scheduled}

 

[Mickey_Finn]

The reason the troops are there, are to protect Crimea to fend of a response to any attack to their bold move of wishing to leave the Ukraine. What do you think would have happened, in the current situation, an unelected government, just recently in power and Crimea said ‘we want out, we want our independence’, so ‘we’re holding a referendum’. I doubt there would be too friendly a response to that. 1) Because Ukraine is upside down at present with reported vigilante/nazi groups and 2) the new government would not wish to lose face and let Crimea go, hence they could have been infiltrated by Ukrainian troops and told, ‘no, you can’t be independent just stay as you are’.

IMO this is a good time for Crimea to get out (if the referendum, states this). Whether they all ‘like’ Russia or not is neither here nor there. People have to make a living, want a better standard of life - so what is their choice?

A bankrupt Ukraine that’s not too stable;
ruled by the EU that will give them austerity measures like they’ve never known before;
or go with their rich neighbour, who they’re already on good terms with due to the black sea fleet. and the Russian army presence already in the region.

1. I think the Ukrainians are familiar with austerity.
2. They are planning to hold free elections
3. Where does someone from Ireland come up with such nonsense?
4. It would be hard to trust an election held in an occupied region like the Crimea

 

[GraceSofia]

So, so the Crimeans have no say in this? They’re just sitting there waiting to be ‘captured’? They ASKED Putin to help them out, they don’t want to be part of Ukraine as it is too volatile with an unelected government running the show. They have a right to ask to leave the Ukraine and become independent, Scotland are doing it within Great Britain, it is their democratic right. The fact they wish to be governed by Russia is neither here nor there. I suppose they could have voted for independence first and then gone with Russia, makes no odds. Other countries under the rule of one other can take a referendum for their independence from that particular government. If Scotland became independent and then decided they wished to be ruled by ‘Canada’ for example. Who can stop them?

About 40% of the people in Crimea are NOT ethnic Russians. Don’t they have any rights?

“They” asked Putin to help them? Who is they? Is one person enough to give legitimacy?

When the Muslims become more than 51% of the population of Marseilles and Bradford, can they vote to join the Caliphate?

 

[josie_L]

Whats your point with Kent State?

I didn’t get that either.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The reason the troops are there, are to protect Crimea to fend of a response to any attack to their bold move of wishing to leave the Ukraine. What do you think would have happened, in the current situation, an unelected government, just recently in power and Crimea said ‘we want out, we want our independence’, so ‘we’re holding a referendum’. I doubt there would be too friendly a response to that. 1) Because Ukraine is upside down at present with reported vigilante/nazi groups and 2) the new government would not wish to lose face and let Crimea go, hence they could have been infiltrated by Ukrainian troops and told, ‘no, you can’t be independent just stay as you are’.

IMO this is a good time for Crimea to get out (if the referendum, states this). Whether they all ‘like’ Russia or not is neither here nor there. People have to make a living, want a better standard of life - so what is their choice?

A bankrupt Ukraine that’s not too stable;
ruled by the EU that will give them austerity measures like they’ve never known before;
or go with their rich neighbour, who they’re already on good terms with due to the black sea fleet. and the Russian army presence already in the region.

There aren’t any Russian forces in the Crimea. Putin himself said so earlier this week. npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/04/285653335/putin-says-those-arent-russian-forces-in-crimea

 

[oldcatholicguy]

About 40% of the people in Crimea are NOT ethnic Russians. Don’t they have any rights?

“They” asked Putin to help them? Who is they? Is one person enough to give legitimacy?

When the Muslims become more than 51% of the population of Marseilles and Bradford, can they vote to join the Caliphate?

They’ll have the “right” to become Russian citizens.

 

[pepipop]

About 40% of the people in Crimea are NOT ethnic Russians. Don’t they have any rights?

“They” asked Putin to help them? Who is they? Is one person enough to give legitimacy?

When the Muslims become more than 51% of the population of Marseilles and Bradford, can they vote to join the Caliphate?

They’ll have as much rights as catholics did in NI. Whoever has the biggest population gets to decide, i.e. stay with Britain. The referendum will include their vote, but don’t be so sure they will not vote yes. Many catholics preferred to stay with Britain in the 70’s due to the poor economy of Ireland at that time, business people, parents working to keep families knew which side their bread was buttered on. Likewise, it will be the same in this case, too.

 

[pepipop]

1. I think the Ukrainians are familiar with austerity.
2. They are planning to hold free elections
3. Where does someone from Ireland come up with such nonsense?
4. It would be hard to trust an election held in an occupied region like the Crimea

What does my nationality have to do with MY opinions - and who is anyone else to say they are nonsense!

 

[pepipop]

There aren’t any Russian forces in the Crimea. Putin himself said so earlier this week. npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/04/285653335/putin-says-those-arent-russian-forces-in-crimea

If that’s the case and they vote to go with Russia it will be for purely financial reasons and less austerity.

 

[josie_L]

About 40% of the people in Crimea are NOT ethnic Russians. Don’t they have any rights?

“They” asked Putin to help them? Who is they? Is one person enough to give legitimacy?

When the Muslims become more than 51% of the population of Marseilles and Bradford, can they vote to join the Caliphate?

Exactly, and personally I don’t buy into the idea that they were endangered in the first place, and the fact that this referendum is happening while Russian troops are on the ground, i.e. during an invasion, is problematic.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

If that’s the case and they vote to go with Russia it will be for purely financial reasons and less austerity.

Yeah, the Jedi hand wave only works in the movies.

 

[Peter_Plato]

About 40% of the people in Crimea are NOT ethnic Russians. Don’t they have any rights?

“They” asked Putin to help them? Who is they? Is one person enough to give legitimacy?

When the Muslims become more than 51% of the population of Marseilles and Bradford, can they vote to join the Caliphate?

Another ‘separation’ referendum will likely come up in the Canadian province of Quebec within the year as it has multiple times in the past few decades. Would the Canadian government have a right to ignore the wishes of a majority of people in that province? The issue is a complex one even for a relatively stable country like Canada whose central government has been legitimately elected.

In the case of an ‘installed’ leadership such as is the case in Ukraine, the issue becomes even more contentious.

My point being, that if Quebec has reasonable justification for separation from a stable central government, then surely Crimea has at least as much justification. Of course, this assumes that a fair referendum is the means by which that determination is made.

The other factor is that Crimea has had some degree of ‘autonomy,’ one sometimes referred to by the term ‘autonomous republic.’ This would mean that Ukraine’s claim to Crimea is and has been tenuous, in any case. Clearly, it is not the identical situation that the other oblasts would be in viv a vis the central government, putting aside the question of whether the current regime is legitimate or not.

 

[Seamus_L]

If Putin decides he made a mistake and withdraws all Russian forces, I still believe a lot of Ukrainians are going to regard Russian speakers as Fifth Columnists.

 

[josie_L]

If that’s the case and they vote to go with Russia it will be for purely financial reasons and less austerity.

And you believe that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea because Putin said so?

If it’s “complete nonsense” that there are Russian troops in Crimea, in the recent words of Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, then who are these soldiers outfitted with the latest Russian military uniforms, guns, and armored cars?

The “local defense forces” currently occupying Crimea are wearing unmarked uniforms that look a hell of a lot like the ones that Russian designer Valentin Yudashkin made for the Russian army. They’re carrying Kalashnikovs and Russian Dragunov sniper rifles, RGD-5 grenades, and NSV machine guns. They’re riding around in Russian “Tiger” and “Lynx” armored cars. And yet, according to the Kremlin, they do not exist.

Russia is allowed to have 25,000 troops in Ukraine, per an agreement with the Ukrainian government. But those troops must stay on their bases. Russia has previously explained sending forces to Crimea by saying they were going to join the Black Sea Fleet, which is based in Sevastopol. But it continues to pretend that the unmarked troops besieging Ukrainian military bases aren’t theirs—Putin said so in his press conference on Wednesday, and Shoigu echoed that message yesterday. Russia Today even dedicated a whole segment to ridiculing the western “media frenzy” that went “so far as to report that Russia is invading Ukraine:”

newrepublic.com/article/116904/soldier-ukraine-admits-hes-russian-video