Um...just a quick question

[johnnyjoe]

3) That child was conceived through the evil powers of Satan. God may have created the pregnancy, but Satan caused the rape. That child would be a constant reminder of the incident. And yes, Jesus did die for us on the cross…but he KNEW that something like what was going to happen. You will never know if you’re going to be raped. Never.

Thank you all for your views, but life is not black and white. There’s a gray area, and not every dark cloud has a silver lining.

No, the child was concieved through the Power of the Holy Spirit. Your post belies the fact that you may still be angry at God for the sin of Rape. The child is indeed a constant reminder, but not of the sin of rape, but of the Mercy of God who always offers us the opportunity to bring forth good from evil. The evil of rape can offer the healing of new life, if God so wills it. Rape is but one of the sins that can befall man, and the Resurrection is greater than ANY of man’s sins. If it is not, then we worship a shallow and fickle God, and the history of God’s Mercy is all the evidence we need, if we acknowledge it, to know that regardless of the evils that can befall us, God will lift us up and make us whole.

 

[Poprox]

This is not a black and white issue, and I don’t know why people aren’t taking more of an active role in trying to save the rest of the life that the victim of rape will endure.The woman has nothing to be guilty about in aborting the child of a rapist. She did not choose to be raped, nor did she want a child trhough rape! Why is it then, that the true victim’s feelings are not even of the slightest concern!? Yes there are those stories of people, feeling sorry after it, but what about the other side of those stories? It’s nice to look at life through rose-colored glasses, but you miss out on a lot of the little things. I agree, there are the stories of people feeling guilty of the abortion, and they are indeed, the stories that people parade around as anti-abortion statements. But, what about the OTHER stories!? There are more out there…all you have to do is really open your eyes…

Angry at God!? No, I just wonder about the existence of God. Where was God when I spent a childhood of sexual abuse? Where was God when my mother was raped? Where was God when my best friend was the object of affection of her brother? Where was God when my brother was abused? Where was God when my friend almost committed suicide? If I believe in God (the ultimate good), then I believe in Satan (the ultimate evil). I do believe in God, but I find it hard to fathom why so much evil abundant…

For some reason, the woman that was raped will not have a choice in the matter of abortion…that would make her a murderer…Would it now? Why should she have no choice at all in the matter? Doesn’t the rape victim’s feelings come into play at all?

And statistics, are absolutely useless…sexual assualt is called the “invisible” or “silent” crime. Many women and men are assaulted on a daily basis, and the true numbers of it are staggering. And saying that the rape “excuse” (rape is a serious matter, NOT an excuse…very few individuals cry false rape-pardon the almost statistical situation. Yes, there are evil ones in all things, but that’s like trying to say that all farmers are animal killers, just because a few morons brutally killed some livestock…generalizations are bad…). That falls back into the slippery-slope debate argument, and since you can’t tell the future, YOU HAVE NO IDEA what will come out of that.

Protect all life…that would be peachy keen, but instead of chasing after dreams, why can’t we help those who are in immediate danger? Instead of going after the maybes, let’s go after the here and now. I used to think that all things were cut and dried and simple, but my own life events have changed that one. NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE PUT INTO NEAT LITTLE CATEGORIES TO BE TAKEN CARE OF!

 

[Debbie]

Poprox:

…why can’t we help those who are in immediate danger?

Dear Poprox,

Your closing paragraph says it all. With abortion, the unborn baby is in immediate danger. Sadly, the damage to the mother has already been done–she is no longer in immediate danger, but abortion places her child in danger.

You have had to bear more pain than most–it’s a heavy cross you bear. I will pray that you can find peace in this matter.

In Christ,

Debbie

 

[Richard_Lamb]

Poprox:

This abortion issue has me in a tussle…um…I’m against abortion UNLESS the mother was raped…but, it is my understanding that ALL circumstances of abortion are wrong. Well, what about the woman that had her life ruined by rape!? She didn’t want that child, and she did nothing to deserve to be raped…so…what about these circumstances?

It is still not the babies fault…Do you kill someone for the crime of someone else…The baby can be put for adoption…

 

[1ke]

Poprox:

I’m against abortion UNLESS the mother was raped…but, it is my understanding that ALL circumstances of abortion are wrong. .

Why are you against abortion at all? The baby is no different-- it is human, alive, and innocent.

If it is OK to kill the baby because the mother was raped, it’s OK to kill the baby for any reason. You are basing the decision to kill the baby on subjective criteria, how the mother feels about being pregnant, therefore you are NOT basing your stance that abortion is wrong on the dignity of the human person and absolute right to life.

Therefore, I ask you – defend your position that abortion is wrong for other reasons but not wrong for rape. How can you defend ANY abortion as wrong if you are basing the morality of “choosing” an abortion on some criteria other than whether or not all humans have an inviolate right to life?

 

[Jason_Hurd]

Poprox, I’m afraid it is just beyond the capability of any of us here to adequately answer your questions until you have dealt with the righteous indignation you feel over the fact of sexual assault, and also with your anger toward God. I urge you to find a good counselor who can help you find answers to your concerns. I just don’t think you’re going to be open to other points of view until you’ve conquered the anger you feel.

 

[Poprox]

So, the “danger” is already done to the woman or man under sexual assualt things? Ever hear of the “aftermath”? Another thing, I do not hate God. I think that the worst thing is to assume things of others. I am not being self-righteous or anything. Once you have had to go through sexual abuse (in any form), then you will understand these things. I am open to other points of view, HOWEVER, unless you lose the “black & white” world perspective, you can’t understand where I’m coming from. Abortion under the circumstances of rape is completely acceptable in my book, because, IT WAS NOT THE WOMAN’S FAULT! You can argue that the baby has no choice in the matter either, but then again…you can’t. It is unaccpetable in other scenario’s, because nothing was stolen or forcefully taken. Stupidity is just in action. Why must the victim’s of sexual assualt be chastised? I think that most people underestimate the gravity of sexual assault. The fact that I believe that they have a choice in the matter, is because, they did not choose to have their lives tattered by rape (and it will be tattered, there is no way to sugar coat the reality of it). If the woman was being stupid and not being moral and whatnot, then yeah, they should have to live with that choice.

Why do some people assume that my position is wrong? I harbor no anger towards anyone…just certain acts. I find myself being blunt and to the point. I’ve had to question many things in my 17 years of life. And I was really iffy about this issue, until I started talking to people who have been raped. Then things became clear.

There are many things in our society that need to be changed…but, like I’ve been saying, nothing is rosy and perfect. You can look at the shiny side of things all you want, but the dark side needs to be examined as well. I used to be very this is right, and this wrong, minded, but I’ve come to learn that things in life are not that way, and you can keep saying that “all will be okay!” but sometimes, that’s not the way that it works.

I love God, and all of his wonderous undertakings, but…some things I do have to question, and I’ve had to wonder. Where was He when this was going on…or this…or this…

 

[jc413]

Poprox,

It is clear from your responses that you are not just having an intellectual discussion here. You are clearly very angry, and very hurt. You have seen much and experienced much that gives you good reason to feel the way you do.

Please understand that those of us responding to you are also not speaking just for the sake of discussion. There are people here who have been raped. There are people here who have been victims of severe sexual abuse. There are people here who **have **had abortions.

I do fall under one of these categories, but please understand that I do not wish to discuss the details of my particular experience for many reasons. But I would like to tell you a few things. First, the violence I suffered was so severe, that when I finally went to counseling (at the advice of my fiance, now my husband) my counselor actually told me “after hearing what you have gone through, I really cannot believe that you function as well as you do.” I do not tell you this to brag.

I am telling you this, because the fact that I overcame the horrors I did was because of one thing and one thing only: the unconditional love I experienced in the arms of Jesus Christ. And the grace that I received to forgive those responsible for causing the pain I suffered.

I know it sounds cliche. But it is true. I can still remember sobbing, kneeling next to my bed, wondering how I would ever survive the pain I was experiencing. I literally felt as if it would crush me and really all I wanted to do was die. And then I remember knowing that Jesus was with me. I remember that I stopped crying, and I felt as if Jesus were sitting with me. I know He was real. I know He heard my cries. It is because of the strength that God gave me that I was able to live through the pain, and forgive. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for Jesus, I would need serious psychological help to this day.

Also, going to a good counselor was a step I needed to take but did not want to. Only then was I able to really put behind me what happened.

Those of us who are speaking from experience know that abortion does nothing more than **continue the violence. **If a woman has been raped, and then aborts, she does not receive healing. She deepens the wound already inflicted on her.

When the Church teaches that abortion is wrong under all circumstances, it is not to “chastise” women who have been raped. It is to put an END to the violence of abortion. Aborted babies are not the only victims of abortion. Abortion is a violent assault on the woman herself.

The Church also does not turn a deaf ear to the cries of raped women. There is a beautiful ministry called “Project Rachel” which is specifically intended to help women who have had abortions experience the healing power of Jesus.

You seem to be under the impression that those who have responded to you don’t know where you’re coming from. That’s simply not true. Please understand that it is precisely because I know where you’re coming from that I feel the way I do.

 

[Poprox]

Okay, I am not being angry at anything (yes, let’s point fingers at the one that is actually having a different look on things). I am trying to show that everything does have an exception, and it is very intelligent of me. I don’t dobut that people do understand, but for some reason, people see only black and white. And people call the one who dares to talk about these things “angry”.People always assume that my position on many things is “unfounded” or “angry”. There is no light way to discuss issues of this gravity, and when people say that it is “black & white”, well that’s just wrong. There is an exception to everything. And what makes me so “angry” anyway? I understand that there are others that know what I’m talking about, and I don’t make the assumption that “I’m the only one”. Because, that’s just dumb. People wil have different views, on everything. But to say, that this is the only TRUTH is…well…not exactly right. What I’ve been trying to do is to not get people to agree with me, but to have people understand that not everything is perfect. Not everything has a simple answer. And, I’m not under any impression (Hmm…I do get angry when people assume)…Sexual assault is a huge issue, and not everyone knows the things that they should know about it. You can think I’m immature, dumb, or assuming if you want, but take a look at my older posts. I’m offering a different side to this issue, but some people would rather fall on the old “black & white” world thing…I mean really…life does not have easy answers…

 

[Viki59]

Poprox:

but for some reason, people see only black and white. . . .There is no light way to discuss issues of this gravity, and when people say that it is “black & white”, well that’s just wrong. . . . What I’ve been trying to do is to not get people to agree with me, but to have people understand that not everything is perfect. Not everything has a simple answer. …life does not have easy answers…

You are absolutely right, Poprox, life has no easy answers. And you ask where God was when those horrible things you mention were going on – He was where He has been all along, hanging on the cross in payment for our sins, and resurrected to give us hope.
The answers are not black or white, but we must choose either life or death for our unborn children, there’s no inbetween choice. And remember that there are twenty childless couples ready and waiting to adopt each available baby.
Wouldn’t it help heal the rape victim’s heart, to know that she was able to give life to her child, and give him or her a good life with loving parents?

 

[PKK]

I believe that a lot of us here would agree with you that things are not always black and white, especially those of us who have suffered from sexual abuse. I am like the person above and would rather not go into my story, other than to say that My father was the abuser. I too have had counceling, which has helped tremdously, but will never make the fact go away. I will deal with the abuse for the rest of my life, and it will effect my decisions. But my opinion is this, and Sgt. Pat touched on it. The sexual abuse was most definitely forced on us, a sin that we DID NOT cause, and should feel no guilt for (although we do, or did). This to me is where God really comes in. In result of this abuse we have two choices we can make, especially if a pregnancy (or other things) result. We can accept the pregnancy bring it to fruition (which of no one will deny is a difficult choice), and keep the baby or give it up for adoption. Giving it up for adoption would be the choice if you couldn’t live with the reminder. However, with this choice there is no sin, no evil. The second choice is to get an abortion, which in turn WE then CHOOSE sin and evil. Up till this point we never chose the sin or evil, therefore are held to no guilt. Now with this second choice not only will we have to live with the abuse WE did NOT choose for the rest of our lives, we are also going to have to live with the CHOICE we DID make for the rest of our lives, and know that this was OUR CHOICE, and be held liable for guilt. We all know that life is hard, even you mentioned people would be shocked at the percentage who are sexually abused. Most of us would not because we have been there to different degrees. But one of your questions also was where was God, and I agree he was right there. We can not blame him for men and women’s evils. He gave us a free will (choice) to follow him or not. Unfortunately we have been the choice of someone’s evil. Does that give us the right to cause evil, or do we have a chance to change it? I am just one that would like to try and make this world a better place, and correct the evil that is done rather than add to it. I choose to follow Christ to the Cross. May God bless you as you seek to find him and the answers.

 

[1ke]

Poprox:

Abortion under the circumstances of rape is completely acceptable in my book, because, IT WAS NOT THE WOMAN’S FAULT! You can argue that the baby has no choice in the matter either, but then again…you can’t. It is unaccpetable in other scenario’s, because nothing was stolen or forcefully taken.

You did not answer my question-- how is the BABY different? Is it not equally human, alive, and innocent in both a rape and non-rape pregnancy? How is the BABY different. And, why can you not argue that the baby had no choice in the matter? A baby NEVER chooses to come into existence, so yes you absolutely can say the baby had no choice.

Poprox, I am very sorry for what you and those you care for have suffered. When I replied to your first post, I had not read your subsequent posts. Others have suggested counseling, and I would concur. If you have been a victim of rape, and a victim (yes victim) of abortion please do look up Rachel’s Vineyard or Project Rachel which have helped thousand of women.

At every turn, we do have a choice. And, that choice must be made on objective criteria-- not how we feel about something, but what that something is. And, the fact is that the something is a baby. And, it is either right to kill a baby or it is wrong to kill a baby. And, if it is right it is always right, and if it is wrong it is always wrong. I can still choose to do it, but it will not be a right choice.

 

[Flounder]

Propox,
Here’s where I think your view differs from ours…

Would you think it’s okay for a victim of rape to kill her two month old baby? Would you say it’s never okay (yep black and white)? We see no difference between her killing the two month old and her receiveng an abortion.

 

[jc413]

Poprox:

Okay, I am not being angry at anything (yes, let’s point fingers at the one that is actually having a different look on things)… And people call the one who dares to talk about these things “angry”.People always assume that my position on many things is “unfounded” or “angry”…And what makes me so “angry” anyway?

I am so glad to hear that you are not angry. I did not come to the conclusion that you were angry because you took a different position than I, but because of the tone of your letters. You are not in front of me, so all I have to go by is what you have written. If I gave that impression, I’m sorry. It takes great maturity, faith, and forgiveness to overcome the tragic experiences you have gone through and not harbor any anger. When I was your age, I was not able to do that. Perhaps I was making assumptions based on my own experiences. I hope that answers your question.

You said, “I am trying to show that everything does have an exception, and it is very intelligent of me.”

No one here is saying that you are not intelligent, or immature, or anything like that. I have read all of these posts and have not read any of those responses. Perhaps you have received private messages assuming so? If so, I’m sorry.

I am not here to attack you but to merely answer your original question which was: “She didn’t want that child, and she did nothing to deserve to be raped…so…what about these circumstances?” You were trying to get an answer to that question, were you not?

And you still haven’t answered some very important questions which are at the heart of this argument.

Why are you against abortion in any case?

 

[ProLifeAction]

Poprox,

The key question in the Abortion debate is WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN? Biology tells us a chemical reaction occurs at fertilization when the egg meets the sperm and thus forms the Human Embryo. The Human Embryo at its One Cell Stage whether in the womb or a petry dish is the BEGINNING OF LIFE. Once the Human Embryo is formed there is nothing chemically added to the equation up to the day we die. The Human Embryo is the start of a growth process which does not end until we reach 23 year of age.

hhpcc.com/mainfac.htm & priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/fetaldevelopment.htm.

It’s very important to realize once life begins, NO LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANOTHER LIFE! If a VALUE is placed on LIFE, then a slippery slope starts to exist. For example…

1. Hitler stated the life of the Germans had a greater VALUE than the Jews. What happened? 6 Millions Jews were murdered!
2. American years ago claimed the life of the White Man had a greater VALUE than the life of the Black Man. What happened? America had Slavery against the Black Man.

Abortion is the same thing. Americans have claimed the life of those already born has a greater VALUE than the lives of the Unborn. What happened? We murdered 43+ Millions innocents of our own.

Therefore we cannot discount the VALUE of the unborn baby just because he/she was produced out of rape. It’s unfortunate but we cannot punish the unborn baby for the crime. Pictures of Aborted Babies should not have to justify themselves because they are the result of rape or incest. They all all disgusting pictures.

priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm

Doctors should not be murdering lives! They need to get back into the business of SAVING LIVES. In the example of a Pregnant Mother & her Unborn Baby, a doctor needs to do whatever it takes to SAVE BOTH LIVES!

 

[space_ghost]

i’m always amazed at the length some will go to make it “OK” to have an abortion… now, lets see… if she was raped by bigfoot, or the ultra sound says it has no arms, no legs, no head, just make the circumstances as horrific as you can, but your still killing an innocent baby… you really got to quit this looking for a justifiable reason for killing an unborn child… there’s not one under heaven or earth God or man…

just quit it!

 

[miggy]

Poprox

I’d life to recommend a book to you. It helped my wife and I a great deal when we found out our daughter was going to be born with a defective heart and we were given the choice of abortion.

It is “The Road Less Traveled” by Dr Scott Peck. It is not about the abortion issue, rather about making choices.

In it he argues that people often times are faced with a problem, but decide to deal with it in such a way that the original problem is still there but they have now created a second problem that is even worse than the original. A war veteran who drinks to avoid pain and becomes an alchoholic, for instance.

For example, you have been raped. Something beyond your control. The violence, the violation, the trama, the guilt, the shame. And you find out you are pregnant to boot. Rape does not cause pregancy. Sex does. Remember most pregant woman do not feel the emotions that you do. The problem isn’t the pregancy it is the rape. So you decide that you can’t have a baby(college, career, the reminder that you were raped, etc…) You make a choice to have an abortion. The rape does not disappear, you will always have the above emotions. And the abortion does not go away either. But now you have to deal with these on top of the rape. Guilt, shame, violence, trama etc. The difference between the rape and the abortion is that you actually chose one of them. Which one do you think will cause you more grief?

Will raising a child be hard. Absolutely? Will childbirth be painful? Almost without a doubt. Will abortion be easier? It will probably be the easiest 5 minutes of the ordeal. And you will probably feel relief immediately afterwards. But the memory of what you chose(everytime you see a pregnant woman, every time you see a baby, everytime you see one of your own) will echo in your mind forever.

I have never heard a woman say, I wish I had aborted that one or this one. I have a heard woman sobb, my child would have been this old had I not had an abortion or I would have three children instead of two or what will I tell them when I see them again.

Our story is under the thread, “the abortion issue”

Good luck and God Bless

Miguel

 

[sgt.pat]

Hi Poprox,

WOW, haven’t you generated quite a response here. I’m gonna be brief sweetie. When I first responded to your “quick question” I had no idea how old you were. As I was trying to keep my eyes open last night, I read that you were 17 and it just made my heart cry. I’m not going to throw a bunch more words down I just want you to know that I wish I could reach out and hold you until some of the pain subsides, and help you get through one day at a time. There is nothing I nor anyone else can say to change the past. But there are so many of us that have suffered and continue to suffer. And some times all we, those who are in pain, need is a long loving hug! So my dear, considered yourself HUGGED!!

If you would like someone to talk to a little more private, I’m not sure how to do it, but once my old army brain figures out all this computer stuff, I would more than willing to talk to you a little more privately. Nor pressure, just an open invitation for you if you want it.

Pat

 

[debi]

This issue **is **a black and white issue. Many issues are black and white but we are always looking for an easier way out of bad situations. I am an older woman. I have been involved with teens for many years. Some have been forced to make that decision. NONE that made the decision to abort are better for it. One child I know was raped, went home to her parents (“good” Catholics- prolife stickers on the car) parents wisked her off ot get rid of her problem.
Morning after pill - now she doesn’t know if she aborted or not. She is a mess. More because of the mixed messages she got, More because because she may have aborted a child. By the way she was 15 and drinking - Parents Know where your children are…
blessings

 

[Seatuck]

Perhaps many of you don’t know this but the church does allow for after care for a rape in which conception may be prevented.A woman is permitted to protect herself from fertilization in cases of rape.It requires immediate hospital/ER attention after the rape. First it must be determined of ovulation has occured. This is done by testing. If ovulation has not occurred medicine may be given which prevents ovulation sperm capacitation or fertilization. A woman is permitted to protect herself from fertilization in cases of rape.

The phrase Love them Both is applicable for this discussion. The woman or young girl should of course be treated for the emotional trauma of rape and should be given medical care. If pregnancy has occured she should be given pre-natal care and help with deciding to keep the child or give the child up for adoption. This is what the many crisis pregnancy places that Catholics support for these women provide.

Rape is a traumatic and horrifying event which can be overcome with care and treatment.Please encourage anyone who has suffered rape to get help.Lives do not have to be ruined by this evil action.

Dianne