um, really Joe Smith?

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to any mormon:
the bishop of rome was never an apostle therefore, satan ruled the world until peter and the other apostles laid hands on joseph smith to make him an apostle? am i correct on this? seems like you’re making Jesus out to be a liar if you really believe that.
if this is true what i have read, why whould God let people be confused for 1800 years? doesn’t seem to go with salvation history…
 
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just subbing here…
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I am going to “me too” here. But, not terribly interested really.

I have been asking Zerinius to tell me why mormons were not present to object to the first 7 ecumenical councils, that gave us Christology.

Until he can, I could give a flip.
 
My understanding is that the LDS believe the Church became apostate shortly AFTER the death of the Apostles.
 
That’s what they believe, yet they are unable to document the process of apostacy nor the dates at which any apostacy milestones took place. They cannot even point to doctrines uniquely Mormon that were believed by the apostles but not believed by the Church after the apostles died.

Paul
 
i was wondering if that (peter and others came back and laid hands on joseph smith) was a correct teaching in mormonism. sounds far fetched to me.
 
Additionally, Mormons even screw up their own apostasy theory by their own DOCTRINE that the Apostle John still walks the Earth “tarrying”!

scriptures.lds.org/dc/7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35–36.
1–3, John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes; 4–8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my abeloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.
If John has always been here with their all important “keys of authority”, there could not have been a Great and Complete Apostasy by their own definition. Not all the apostles are dead!

:banghead:
 
i was wondering if that (peter and others came back and laid hands on joseph smith) was a correct teaching in mormonism. sounds far fetched to me.
And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them; (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12)
Hope this helps,
Paul
 
Peter James and John got dragged into this?

By the way, do they claim there were any witnesses to this major and monumental event?
 
No witnesses to the ordinations, just the two ordainees themselves (guess who? wait for it…) Joseph Smith and his cousin Oliver Cowdery.

God bless,
Paul
 
My understanding is that the LDS believe the Church became apostate shortly AFTER the death of the Apostles.
That is the standard Protestant myth… I keep asking the Mormons here for some details. How exactly did the Church apostasize? How do they explain the consistency of the writings of the Early Church Fathers ( often men who were taught by the Apsotles), with the teachings of the Church ( Both East and West).

They never answer because it is a slander they cant back up very well.
 
Early Mormon prophets taught that the early Christian Church was persecuted into extinction because the early Christians were polygamists like Jesus. :eek:

Paul
 
That is the standard Protestant myth… I keep asking the Mormons here for some details. How exactly did the Church apostasize? How do they explain the consistency of the writings of the Early Church Fathers ( often men who were taught by the Apsotles), with the teachings of the Church ( Both East and West).

They never answer because it is a slander they cant back up very well.
A mormon can’t answer this. As a mormon I never heard of the Early Church Fathers. Not one peep. Not even the term “Early Church Fathers”. It was yet another Catholic “mystery” that I had to look up and figure out. And they aren’t going to read them, as it is material that might lead to asking questions. :eek:
 
I am going to “me too” here. But, not terribly interested really.

I have been asking Zerinius to tell me why mormons were not present to object to the first 7 ecumenical councils, that gave us Christology.

Until he can, I could give a flip.
Are you serious or is that a joke? If you are serious, then take my word for it that I don’t understand you. The first ecumenical council was held in Nicaea in AD 325. The LDS Church was organized in 1830. That is 1500 years later. How could the “Mormons” have been “present” at that council to “object to it”?

Which were the other six ecumenical councils you are referring to?

How did the councils “give us Christology”? Christology is either biblical, and therefore true; or else it is unbiblical and untrue. The councils did not “give us christilogy”. True Christology, if there is one, can only come from the Bible, because that is where Christ and His identity has been defined. The Bible gave us Christology, not the councils.

zerinus
 
Are you serious or is that a joke? If you are serious, then take my word for it that I don’t understand you. The first ecumenical council was held in Nicaea in AD 325. The LDS Church was organized in 1830. That is 1500 years later. How could the “Mormons” have been “present” at that council to “object to it”?

Which were the other six ecumenical councils you are referring to?

How did the councils “give us Christology”? Christology is either biblical, and therefore true; or else it is unbiblical and untrue. The councils did not “give us christilogy”. True Christology, if there is one, can only come from the Bible, because that is where Christ and His identity has been defined. The Bible gave us Christology, not the councils.

zerinus
It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God gave Moses an oral explanation of the Torah along with the written text. This oral tradition is now essentially preserved in the Talmud and Midrashim. Just as we depend on tradition for the accepted text, vocalization, and translation of the Torah, so must we depend on tradition for its interpretation. The Written Torah cannot be understood without the oral tradition. Hence, if anything, the Oral Torah is the more important of the two. Since the Written Torah appears largely defective unless supplemented by the oral tradition, a denial of the Oral Torah necessarily leads to the denial of the divine origin of the written text as well…

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.

2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.
scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html
aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Oral_Tradition.asp

Sent: 10/3/2007 8:32 PM Shalom-שלום_אתם Message 33 of 311

From:Shalom
While Torah is silent on the details it is loud on telling Israel that they should judge for itself how to implement the commandments. Moses delegated, there was a time we had Judges, Sannhedrin etc.

Here You Go Z - How to keep Shabbat is Man-Made
And Where is it recorded in the TORAH - Moses delegated his authority to the Sannhedrin ? Nowhere I know

While Bible is silent on the details it is loud on telling Catholics that they should judge for itself how to implement the Christs Teaching. Jesus delegated, there was a time we had Apostles, Churches etc.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "), but few have seen it with their own eyes.

So here 'tis:
jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html

Sent:10/4/2007 12:23 PM From:Shalom-שלום_אתם Message 63 of 311
I didn’t say Moses delegated authority to the Sanhedrin. Setting up governing bodies is one of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) given to Israel. Under the advice of his father in law Yitro (Jethro in English) Moses assigned governance over the tribes. He later appointed Joshua, but even so, once Torah was given, Israel knew they had to appoint governing bodies. Governance took the form of Judges, Kings (bad choice) and Sanhedrin at different periods in our history.
 
Just reading this response, makes me ask:

Is he serious?

Apparently you are dead serious.

Pass that Kool Aid to someone else please.

Do your homework on the first 7 ecumenical councils.

I see, you will reply to me here- not on the thread I asked you this.

I asked you why were the councils were brought about as well.

If you take a careful examination of it the answers will hit you.

Also, your faith is not BIBLE only- so how in the world can you say that we know what we know from the BIBLE only?

That is funny. Good one!
Are you serious or is that a joke? If you are serious, then take my word for it that I don’t understand you. The first ecumenical council was held in Nicaea in AD 325. The LDS Church was organized in 1830. That is 1500 years later. How could the “Mormons” have been “present” at that council to “object to it”?

Which were the other six ecumenical councils you are referring to?

How did the councils “give us Christology”? Christology is either biblical, and therefore true; or else it is unbiblical and untrue. The councils did not “give us christilogy”. True Christology, if there is one, can only come from the Bible, because that is where Christ and His identity has been defined. The Bible gave us Christology, not the councils.

zerinus
 
Just reading this response, makes me ask:

Is he serious?

Apparently you are dead serious.

Pass that Kool Aid to someone else please.

Do your homework on the first 7 ecumenical councils.

I see, you will reply to me here- not on the thread I asked you this.

I asked you why were the councils were brought about as well.

If you take a careful examination of it the answers will hit you.

Also, your faith is not BIBLE only- so how in the world can you say that we know what we know from the BIBLE only?

That is funny. Good one!
So you just like to ask people nonsensical questions and give them nonsensical answers?

zerinus
 
So you just like to ask people nonsensical questions and give them nonsensical answers?

zerinus
Is your faith bible only Zerinus?

No mention of Jesus in the BOM? (while that would not surprise me, I ask you this honestly)
 
Is your faith bible only Zerinus?

No mention of Jesus in the BOM? (while that would not surprise me, I ask you this honestly)
My faith is in the Bible and the Book of Mormon (and in other LDS scripture). But what has that got to do with what we are talking about?

zerinus
 
You said:

Christology is either biblical, and therefore true; or else it is unbiblical and untrue

Problem with this is:

All so called christians use the bible and differ on christology.

Why do you rely souly on the bible for christology, when you admit you are not bible only?

And you avoided answering if Jesus Is mentioned in the BOM.

Well- is he? What verses, how many? Can you list them?
 
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