UN Panel: Israeli Settlements Are Illegal

[Darryl1958]

Where did I say I “expect social perfection from Israel, but from no one else”?

Of all the inhumanities and injustices that the UN feels compelled to make statements against, the preponderance of them have always been condemning Israel.

jewishworldreview.com/0704/prager_israel_arab_stats.php3
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human rights violations: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26
Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97
Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16
Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0

It is the disproportionate numbers here that supply the context for these discussions, rather than the comments that any one poster may add to what the UN is already doing against Israel.

 

[OneSheep]

Of all the inhumanities and injustices that the UN feels compelled to make statements against, the preponderance of them have always been condemning Israel.

jewishworldreview.com/0704/prager_israel_arab_stats.php3
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human rights violations: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26
Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97
Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16
Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0

It is the disproportionate numbers here that supply the context for these discussions, rather than the comments that any one poster may add to what the UN is already doing against Israel.

From what I am reading, the bias you show is valid, but the human rights commission has undergone a big change since 2009:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#cite_note-14

quote:

Beginning in 2009, however, commentators began to argue that the HRC was becoming increasingly relevant[6][7] as the Council addressed country situations in Burma, Guinea, North Korea,[8] Côte d’Ivoire,[9][10] Kyrgyzstan,[11] Syria,[12] Libya,[13] Iran,[14] and Sri Lanka

If you follow those links on Wikipedia, they do go to resolutions against states with predominantly Muslim populations, so your statistics are possibly correct for a given time period, but do not include the last few years.

This change in the U.N. makes even more significant, and more valid, this latest resolution condemning the settlements, and may help the case for the Palestinians in the ICC, if it goes that far.

One has to ask “why did the HRC focus so much on the violations carried out by Israel?”. I think it may in part be that it is those violations by Israel that create more ire than those anywhere else. Can you think of any other ongoing situation that has triggered so much anger and resentment? Today or in the past?

 

[OneSheep]

But it’s deeper than that. Israel is dealing with a very rough neighborhood; a neighborhood that treats Jews cruelly and would kill them all if it could. In judging Israel against an ideal, which many are wont to do, commentators often forget that Israel cannot avoid doing some things, and it understandably has difficulty forgetting some things. If an entire people wants you dead and says so, you are going to be suspicious of them.

Israel is to be forgiven for what they have done. The South African government, too, is to be forgiven for their policies against blacks. The problem is the blanket discrimination. Palestinians are not allowed homes in the settlements. This is morally wrong. It is understandable, but it is wrong. The answer is for both sides to forgive and learn to empathize with their enemy. This is not unrealistic, for both Islam and Judaism give much importance to forgiveness. The forgiveness has to precede the quest for justice.

To whatever extent Ashkenazi Jews look down on (some but certainly not all) Sephardic Jews, that’s a fault and something the Israelis should work to correct, just as we in the U.S. should work to correct the even worse racism in this country. All people should be good. I’ll agree with that.

And, all people should forgive, starting with us. We need to forgive the Israelis and the Palestinians. We need to forgive Palestinians gangs, forgive the settlers, and so on.

First, Israel is not the only country to which the U.S. gives support. And the only support the U.S. gives Israel is in the form of military hardware. We do the same for Jordan. We give both hardware and billions of dollars to Egypt, for example.

I am going to stick with my past assertions that the aid we give to Israel’s neighbors is to keep them on Israel’s side. We do not give such aid anywhere else in the world.

And if I was a Palestinian, and if I had the kind of knowledge my Palestinian friends do, my attitude would probably be just like theirs, as follows:

Israelis are trustworthy in their dealing, but are hard bargainers. When it comes to security, they’re strict. They can be arrogant, but they’re fair. They are excellent manufacturers and businessmen, and I make money doing business with them. I would also think, as my friends do, that the biggest danger to me is not the Israelis, but the “gangs” that permeate much of the Middle East. Some are Islamist ideologues. Some are ambitious for power. Some are just criminals. If I were one of my Palestinian friends, I would be very glad I (barely) survived that wedding party blast in Amman. I would feel very bad that the young lady next to me had her head blown off by some gang about which she knew nothing. I would feel bad that my cousin was assassinated because he obtained work permits for Palestinians in Israel. I would also be very glad my “tribe” is one of the largest in Palestine, because that affords me at least a fair amount of protection. I wish there could be peace in the area because both Israelis and Palestinians could make the area one of the richest on earth if they would make real peace. I would know as sure as I know my own name that the worst enemies of Palestinian Arabs are other Arabs, not Israelis. I will do business with Israelis and Arabs. I will not do any business with Iran or Hezbollah, and wouldn’t go into their areas for any reason at all. There are a few terrorists in my tribe, distantly related. I have nothing to do with them.

Every last bit of that came from them.

Okay, let me be more specific. You are a Palestinian farmer whose land has been confiscated for “security reasons” by Israel, and they tear down your olive groves and use your water to feed Jewish settlements and/or farms elsewhere. A few years later, settlements are being built on your land, or on land once in Palestinian hands and confiscated by Israel. Your family, who are compassionate, law-abiding people, who have lived for hundreds of years in this area, is denied access to a home in the settlement because you have the wrong religion card.

Would you feel angry about this? Sure, there are other things happening in their lives, things that happen on a daily basis. But can you see why such anger is something shared by so many? Please, I don’t want to hear a response about all the atrocities that Palestinians have carried out against Israelis, because I already know all this, and I already empathize with the Israelis on this. My question centers on trying to discern whether you can empathize with the Palestinians as I can empathize with the Israelis. The solution begins with empathy, with forgiveness, not with finger-pointing. Can you empathize with their anger and resentment?

 

[Darryl1958]

From what I am reading, the bias you show is valid, but the human rights commission has undergone a big change since 2009:
…

One has to ask “why did the HRC focus so much on the violations carried out by Israel?”. I think it may in part be that it is those violations by Israel that create more ire than those anywhere else. Can you think of any other ongoing situation that has triggered so much anger and resentment? Today or in the past?

I cannot think of any ongoing situation, either today or in the past, that has triggered so much anger and resentment as compared to the presence of Jews living among us.

I think that is the cogent point.

Why is that indeed.

 

[OneSheep]

I cannot think of any ongoing situation, either today or in the past, that has triggered so much anger and resentment as compared to the presence of Jews living among us.

I think that is the cogent point.

Why is that indeed.

But it isn’t the fact of Jews living among us. Jews lived among the Arabs for centuries. We had Jewish friends in Morocco who had been there for decades, but eventually had to leave because of all the resentment stemming from the holy land. There is something specifically about the actions of the Israeli state, specifically the settlements, that goes against the moral fiber of the world. It really is very much like South Africa, pointed out by Jimmy Carter.

 

[OneSheep]

Okay, let me be more specific. You are a Palestinian farmer whose land has been confiscated for “security reasons” by Israel, and they tear down your olive groves and use your water to feed Jewish settlements and/or farms elsewhere. A few years later, settlements are being built on your land, or on land once in Palestinian hands and confiscated by Israel. Your family, who are compassionate, law-abiding people, who have lived for hundreds of years in this area, is denied access to a home in the settlement because you have the wrong religion card.

Would you feel angry about this? Sure, there are other things happening in their lives, things that happen on a daily basis. But can you see why such anger is something shared by so many? Please, I don’t want to hear a response about all the atrocities that Palestinians have carried out against Israelis, because I already know all this, and I already empathize with the Israelis on this. My question centers on trying to discern whether you can empathize with the Palestinians as I can empathize with the Israelis. The solution begins with empathy, with forgiveness, not with finger-pointing. Can you empathize with their anger and resentment?

Hey Ridgerunner, are you still out there? I am hoping you will answer this question I posted, because this is the way we can truly be peacemakers.

Blame is the opposite of forgiveness, is it not?

 

[Darryl1958]

But it isn’t the fact of Jews living among us. Jews lived among the Arabs for centuries. We had Jewish friends in Morocco who had been there for decades, but eventually had to leave because of all the resentment stemming from the holy land. There is something specifically about the actions of the Israeli state, specifically the settlements, that goes against the moral fiber of the world. It really is very much like South Africa, pointed out by Jimmy Carter.

Jewish nationalism goes against the moral fabric of the world like no other nationalism does for sure, and the moral fabric is related directly to their success rather than in proportion to their crimes against humanity.
Jimmy Carter, the least successful president of the last century, likes to see everything in terms of race, like a liberal Southerner wracked with guilt over Americas race crimes must, but there is nothing inherent to the skin or the religion or genetics of the Jews Arab cousins that keep Christians and Arabs from voting in Israel elections. Many in fact do participate fully. Instead, the ‘apartheid’ is directly related to the habit that many Arabs have of placing explosives in their nether parts and walking into Jewish neighborhoods.

It is an open war against the Jew for the sin of being Jewish, where Jewish success breeds resentment especially among the religious that who conclude in the darkness of their hardened hearts the Jews may really be God’s chosen after all. It goes to wounded pride.

Until monotheistic non-Jews recognize that basic evil and resentment in their own nature, the rest is all rationalization. There is nothing inherently different about how Jews in Israel have dealt with existential threats and how other nationalist movements have dealt with theirs. Only the Jews however go against the very moral fabric of the world, as you have pointed out. The Jews are not responsible for the hearts of men. Only we can change our hearts. Even God will not do that for us, any more than he did for pharoah.

This is true, disproportionately true even, as I have pointed out.

Walls are not a result of ethnicity, but a result of an ongoing state of war.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Jewish nationalism goes against the moral fabric of the world like no other nationalism does for sure, and the moral fabric is related directly to their success rather than in proportion to their crimes against humanity.
Jimmy Carter, the least successful president of the last century, likes to see everything in terms of race, like a liberal Southerner wracked with guilt over Americas race crimes must, but there is nothing inherent to the skin or the religion or genetics of the Jews Arab cousins that keep Christians and Arabs from voting in Israel elections. Many in fact do participate fully. Instead, the ‘apartheid’ is directly related to the habit that many Arabs have of placing explosives in their nether parts and walking into Jewish neighborhoods.

It is an open war against the Jew for the sin of being Jewish, where Jewish success breeds resentment especially among the religious that who conclude in the darkness of their hardened hearts the Jews may really be God’s chosen after all. It goes to wounded pride.

Until monotheistic non-Jews recognize that basic evil and resentment in their own nature, the rest is all rationalization. There is nothing inherently different about how Jews in Israel have dealt with existential threats and how other nationalist movements have dealt with theirs. Only the Jews however go against the very moral fabric of the world, as you have pointed out. The Jews are not responsible for the hearts of men. Only we can change our hearts. Even God will not do that for us, any more than he did for pharoah.

This is true, disproportionately true even, as I have pointed out.

Walls are not a result of ethnicity, but a result of an ongoing state of war.

I’m pretty sure most of the conflict is about land and religion is connected only because that was the pretext for land theft

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I’m pretty sure most of the conflict is about land and religion is connected only because that was the pretext for land theft

You, like many of the anti-Israel respondants are wrong. The anti-Israeli movement amongst the Arabs is pure anti-semitism against the Jews because they are Jewish. This predates the State of Israel going back to before WW I, when Arabs sold land to the early Zionists and then tried to keep them from settling on it. It developed into such a wide spread thing that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sided with Nazi Germany before and during the war to show his support for their anti-Jewish policies. The only thing that saved him from being tried for treason by the Brits was that he died before they could get their hands on him. But his attitudes and beliefs lived on amongst his cohorts and bretheren.
The only reason that Arab anit-semitism has not been called what it is is that the Press finds it ironic that one group of semites hates another groop of the same ethnicity. It would be like having a pro-segregation or pro apartheid Negro in their minds.

 

[HansTrappist]

You, like many of the anti-Israel respondants are wrong. The anti-Israeli movement amongst the Arabs is pure anti-semitism against the Jews because they are Jewish. This predates the State of Israel going back to before WW I, when Arabs sold land to the early Zionists and then tried to keep them from settling on it. It developed into such a wide spread thing that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sided with Nazi Germany before and during the war to show his support for their anti-Jewish policies. The only thing that saved him from being tried for treason by the Brits was that he died before they could get their hands on him. But his attitudes and beliefs lived on amongst his cohorts and bretheren.
The only reason that Arab anit-semitism has not been called what it is is that the Press finds it ironic that one group of semites hates another groop of the same ethnicity. It would be like having a pro-segregation or pro apartheid Negro in their minds.

Well, you got it all wrong.

The “anti-Israeli movement amongst the Arabs” is NOT “pure anti-semitism”.

Most of the Arabs and Jews living in the region got along just fine until the Brits showed up and started playing favorites (Arthur Balfour’s apocalyptic dispensationalism didn’t help matters).

You are also making the predictable mistake of conflating “Israeli” with “Jew” and “Zionist” with “Jew” as if the Zionists that founded the modern state of Israel were somehow followers of the Law of Moses. Nothing could be further from the truth; the majority of the Zionists that founded Israel were radical marxists, materialists and utopian eugenicists.

Here is a quick video demonstrating what Orthodox Jews really think about the modern state of “Israel”: “Orthodox Jews protest against Zionism” (youtube.com/watch?v=IapWP8hq9Mc).

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, you got it all wrong.

The “anti-Israeli movement amongst the Arabs” is NOT “pure anti-semitism”.

Most of the Arabs and Jews living in the region got along just fine until the Brits showed up and started playing favorites (Arthur Balfour’s apocalyptic dispensationalism didn’t help matters).

You are also making the predictable mistake of conflating “Israeli” with “Jew” and “Zionist” with “Jew” as if the Zionists that founded the modern state of Israel were somehow followers of the Law of Moses. Nothing could be further from the truth; the majority of the Zionists that founded Israel were radical marxists, materialists and utopian eugenicists.

Here is a quick video demonstrating what Orthodox Jews really think about the modern state of “Israel”: “Orthodox Jews protest against Zionism” (youtube.com/watch?v=IapWP8hq9Mc).

In fact, most Orthodox Jews in Israel (as well as those in the US and elsewhere) do NOT protest against Zionism, and even those that once protested–the so-called Ultra-Orthodox, including the Satmar movement–have been changing their views. Further, the original Zionists, while largely non-Orthodox Jews, were not only secular but also Reform Jews and others, and by no means “utopian eugenicists” as you describe them. There are today different kinds of Zionists as well, and most of them follow, to varying degrees, the “Law of Moses.” While I would acknowledge that some anti-Zionist non-Jews are not anti-Jewish, at the same time the majority of these non-Jews either use anti-Zionism as a pretense for antisemitism or are simply ignorant of the historical meaning of Zionism.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Hey Ridgerunner, are you still out there? I am hoping you will answer this question I posted, because this is the way we can truly be peacemakers.

Blame is the opposite of forgiveness, is it not?

I generally do not post on weekends because I have other things that are more pressing.

I’m not entirely sure which question you want me to answer, but I’ll assume your question above is the question.

No. Blame is not the opposite of forgiveness. One whose loved one was killed by James Holmes, for example, might forgive him, but Holmes is still to blame for the murder. Blame=properly attributed responsibility.

A lot of your previous post, which I just now read, contains assumed foundations. Perhaps the most erroneous one is unspoken; the assumption that Israelis exclude Arabs from settlements in the West Bank out of some kind of ill will. It is simple self-protection. Those settlements are analgous to the walled towns of history; places where people can be protected as they go about their lives. Jews have always been in Palestine, including the West Bank. They cannot live there safely in the same way we in the U.S. live in reasonable safety in our individual homes. This isn’t some precaution against some ancient offense that hasn’t been forgotten or forgiven. This is a precaution against the presently existing reality.

Another assumption seems to be that “Palestinians” are a discrete people living in a particular place. They aren’t. “Palestinian” is an Arab tribal designation denoting place of assumed (and perhaps correct) origin or at least concentration of one’s tribe. There are “Palestinians” all over the Middle East, and have been for ages, just as there are “Bedouins” and “Syrians” all over the Arab world. It does not have the meaning westerners attribute to it.

 

[OneSheep]

No. Blame is not the opposite of forgiveness. One whose loved one was killed by James Holmes, for example, might forgive him, but Holmes is still to blame for the murder. Blame=properly attributed responsibility.

True, in the objective sense. But blame usually carries judgment with it, which Jesus specifically tells us not to do. The answer to our compulsion to judge is to forgive, which will put all of us in the mode of empathy rather than condemnation of all the parties involved. The UN pointed to the settlements and said “law violation”. Did they say “this is a law violation, so you Israelis deserve condemnation”? Perhaps so. But this is precisely the opportunity we have as those who adhere to our monotheistic religions to have a different voice: “Okay, there is a rule violation when Israelis are building those settlements on occupied territory, but we can forgive those Israelis. Now instead of battling over who is right, let us forgive, get together, and resolve these issues so that everyone can get their needs met.” Would you join me in such an approach? Can you see this as a more compassionate, Christian approach?

A lot of your previous post, which I just now read, contains assumed foundations. Perhaps the most erroneous one is unspoken; the assumption that Israelis exclude Arabs from settlements in the West Bank out of some kind of ill will. It is simple self-protection. Those settlements are analgous to the walled towns of history; places where people can be protected as they go about their lives. Jews have always been in Palestine, including the West Bank. They cannot live there safely in the same way we in the U.S. live in reasonable safety in our individual homes. This isn’t some precaution against some ancient offense that hasn’t been forgotten or forgiven. This is a precaution against the presently existing reality.

Well, let me look again:

Originally Posted by OneSheep

Okay, let me be more specific. You are a Palestinian farmer whose land has been confiscated for “security reasons” by Israel, and they tear down your olive groves and use your water to feed Jewish settlements and/or farms elsewhere. A few years later, settlements are being built on your land, or on land once in Palestinian hands and confiscated by Israel. Your family, who are compassionate, law-abiding people, who have lived for hundreds of years in this area, is denied access to a home in the settlement because you have the wrong religion card.

Would you feel angry about this? Sure, there are other things happening in their lives, things that happen on a daily basis. But can you see why such anger is something shared by so many? Please, I don’t want to hear a response about all the atrocities that Palestinians have carried out against Israelis, because I already know all this, and I already empathize with the Israelis on this. My question centers on trying to discern whether you can empathize with the Palestinians as I can empathize with the Israelis. The solution begins with empathy, with forgiveness, not with finger-pointing. Can you empathize with their anger and resentment?

Perhaps I was not clear enough when I said “I already empathize with the Israelis on this”. Let me describe with what specifically I empathize:

I empathize with the fear that Israelis have of Arabs, specifically Arabs who live in the occupied territories. I would feel a great deal of anxiety getting on a bus with a person who looked the least bit Muslim. I could see what happened to my ancestors in Germany and elsewhere as a huge injustice, and that if there is a God, then Israel is truly a land given to us. I could resent, hate Palestinians for the death and terror they have done to us. I could, therefore, easily justify confiscation of Palestinian territory and disallowing Arabs in the settlements. I understand it. I could have the same feelings and opinions if I were in their shoes.

This is not, as you say, a matter of “ill will”, for what empathizing person could possibly surmise that the Israelis want any more than justice and security.

So my question is whether you, too, can empathize with both sides. If you were that farmer, could you also feel great anger and resentment? Can you see why such anger is shared by so many?

Please, join me in being a peacemaker. It is not saying that those who oppose Israel are “right”. It is a matter of empathizing, forgiving both sides. And this isn’t a matter, either, of me “winning” this discussion. The whole world wins if we can get the Palestinians and Israelis to forgive each other. Reconciliation and peace will follow forgiveness. Can such forgiveness begin with us? If we cannot forgive, (that is, to withhold judgment and let go of desire to punish) as persons essentially outside the arena, then how are we to encourage others to forgive? Forgive we must.

How about others reading this thread or posting here? Can we all forgive both sides? Whom among you is already “there”?

 

[Cider]

Is this new? Or is there still anybody who does not know that the settlements are illegal?

exactly

nothing new here

 

[Ridgerunner]

True, in the objective sense. But blame usually carries judgment with it, which Jesus specifically tells us not to do. The answer to our compulsion to judge is to forgive, which will put all of us in the mode of empathy rather than condemnation of all the parties involved. The UN pointed to the settlements and said “law violation”. Did they say “this is a law violation, so you Israelis deserve condemnation”? Perhaps so. But this is precisely the opportunity we have as those who adhere to our monotheistic religions to have a different voice: “Okay, there is a rule violation when Israelis are building those settlements on occupied territory, but we can forgive those Israelis. Now instead of battling over who is right, let us forgive, get together, and resolve these issues so that everyone can get their needs met.” Would you join me in such an approach? Can you see this as a more compassionate, Christian approach?

Something needs to be understood here by a Christian. The following is not universally true, but it’s at least somewhat “culturally” true. Christians, by and large, believe God commands that we forgive our enemies no matter what. That’s not the same thing as forgetting what they did or failing to guard ourselves against a repeat.

With many Jews, it’s not that way. The offending party must admit his wrong, express his repentence to the offended party, and must, if possible, make recompense, in order to be forgiven.

Muslims, of course, have that “Dar al Islam” thing. The Israelis live in a land Muslims regard as rightfully part of the Islamic domain, and it’s questionable whether anything will ever change that. There are more secular Muslims who don’t think of it that way, but they increasingly seem to be in the minority.

So, applying Christian concepts to the situation between Israelis and Muslims really has no application to them in their minds.

As I am not a party to any wrongs committed in the M.E. between Muslims and Jews, it is not my place to forgive either of them.

The UN, in my mind, is a corrupt political organization that dispenses its “judgments” politically. As such, I do not consider its judgments worthy of my respect. The objective facts might, to me, compel a positive or negative judgment, but the UN’s assessment of anything, of itself, does not.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I generally do not post on weekends because I have other things that are more pressing.

I’m not entirely sure which question you want me to answer, but I’ll assume your question above is the question.

No. Blame is not the opposite of forgiveness. One whose loved one was killed by James Holmes, for example, might forgive him, but Holmes is still to blame for the murder. Blame=properly attributed responsibility.

A lot of your previous post, which I just now read, contains assumed foundations. Perhaps the most erroneous one is unspoken; the assumption that Israelis exclude Arabs from settlements in the West Bank out of some kind of ill will. It is simple self-protection. Those settlements are analgous to the walled towns of history; places where people can be protected as they go about their lives. Jews have always been in Palestine, including the West Bank. They cannot live there safely in the same way we in the U.S. live in reasonable safety in our individual homes. This isn’t some precaution against some ancient offense that hasn’t been forgotten or forgiven. This is a precaution against the presently existing reality.

Another assumption seems to be that “Palestinians” are a discrete people living in a particular place. They aren’t. “Palestinian” is an Arab tribal designation denoting place of assumed (and perhaps correct) origin or at least concentration of one’s tribe. There are “Palestinians” all over the Middle East, and have been for ages, just as there are “Bedouins” and “Syrians” all over the Arab world. It does not have the meaning westerners attribute to it.

blame just means assign responsibility, you can be blamed for something and not be guilty of it.

I’m pretty sure all those Ashkenazi Jews in settlements that were recently built in the West Bank weren’t there 150 years ago. Just because a few people of a group were there does not mean all of that group has a right to be there on land forcibly take from others.

And here I thought the term Palestinian was a term in English meaning an inhabitant of Palestine where Palestine comes to us from the Greek name for it which is basically the same. Palestinian culture used to be on a village level, but all the dislocation separated people from their fellows and threw them in with other Palestinians and a broader culture and cultural identity emerged naturally. Just because a culture may share things with other cultures doesn’t mean they are one culture, for example falafel is shared amongst many cultures.

 

[OneSheep]

Until monotheistic non-Jews recognize that basic evil and resentment in their own nature, the rest is all rationalization. There is nothing inherently different about how Jews in Israel have dealt with existential threats and how other nationalist movements have dealt with theirs. Only the Jews however go against the very moral fabric of the world, as you have pointed out. The Jews are not responsible for the hearts of men. Only we can change our hearts. Even God will not do that for us, any more than he did for pharoah.

This is true, disproportionately true even, as I have pointed out.

Walls are not a result of ethnicity, but a result of an ongoing state of war.

All true. Except that I did not say “only”. Plenty of other acts by nations go against moral fabric. But it must be true that people particularly resent that Israel’s actions go protected by the strongest military in the world. This too, is probably attributed in part to jealousy.

The Israelis, too, hold plenty of resentment and hatred in their hearts, understandably so, and some may even be jealous of lands still held by Palestinians. And I disagree with the idea that people are basically resentful or evil. It is true that all of us are capable of anger, resentment, even hatred and racism. These capacities are not part of an “evil” nature, but a nature that in itself that can be understood and forgiven, a nature that can even be accepted as a gift from God.

To me, the “change in our hearts” is to be one that reflects empathy and compassion for both sides, which I make no apologies for repeating as a mantra on this thread. Do you agree?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by OneSheep

Okay, let me be more specific. You are a Palestinian farmer whose land has been confiscated for “security reasons” by Israel, and they tear down your olive groves and use your water to feed Jewish settlements and/or farms elsewhere. A few years later, settlements are being built on your land, or on land once in Palestinian hands and confiscated by Israel. Your family, who are compassionate, law-abiding people, who have lived for hundreds of years in this area, is denied access to a home in the settlement because you have the wrong religion card.

Would you feel angry about this? Sure, there are other things happening in their lives, things that happen on a daily basis. But can you see why such anger is something shared by so many? Please, I don’t want to hear a response about all the atrocities that Palestinians have carried out against Israelis, because I already know all this, and I already empathize with the Israelis on this. My question centers on trying to discern whether you can empathize with the Palestinians as I can empathize with the Israelis. The solution begins with empathy, with forgiveness, not with finger-pointing. Can you empathize with their anger and resentment?

Perhaps I was not clear enough when I said “I already empathize with the Israelis on this”. Let me describe with what specifically I empathize:

I empathize with the fear that Israelis have of Arabs, specifically Arabs who live in the occupied territories. I would feel a great deal of anxiety getting on a bus with a person who looked the least bit Muslim. I could see what happened to my ancestors in Germany and elsewhere as a huge injustice, and that if there is a God, then Israel is truly a land given to us. I could resent, hate Palestinians for the death and terror they have done to us. I could, therefore, easily justify confiscation of Palestinian territory and disallowing Arabs in the settlements. I understand it. I could have the same feelings and opinions if I were in their shoes.

This is not, as you say, a matter of “ill will”, for what empathizing person could possibly surmise that the Israelis want any more than justice and security.

So my question is whether you, too, can empathize with both sides. If you were that farmer, could you also feel great anger and resentment? Can you see why such anger is shared by so many?

Please, join me in being a peacemaker. It is not saying that those who oppose Israel are “right”. It is a matter of empathizing, forgiving both sides. And this isn’t a matter, either, of me “winning” this discussion. The whole world wins if we can get the Palestinians and Israelis to forgive each other. Reconciliation and peace will follow forgiveness. Can such forgiveness begin with us? If we cannot forgive, (that is, to withhold judgment and let go of desire to punish) as persons essentially outside the arena, then how are we to encourage others to forgive? Forgive we must.

How about others reading this thread or posting here? Can we all forgive both sides? Whom among you is already “there”?

Again, it is not my place to forgive some Palestinian who has killed an Israeli, nor is it my place to forgive an Israeli who has killed a Palestinian. To do either is an offense to both.

If I was a Palestinian farmer whose land was seized in the name of Israeli security, I would be angry, even if I had no clear ownership of the land to begin with, which is often the case, but not always. If I was an Israeli who could not live peacefully in any other way than by my government’s setting up secure fortress-like zones in which I could live, I would be angry that such a thing has to be. I would be particularly angry that Arabs want me and my children dead and would act on it if they could; a feeling I do not have for them.

In that sense, and given nothing more in the way of information, yes, I can empathize with both in the sense of understanding why they feel as they do. But that does not resolve anything, since the claims each has is sufficient in their own eyes to justify their actions, and neither is likely to see it from the other’s point of view.

Whether I do or do not have empathy for one party or both is completely irrelevant to the situation or its resolution.

 

[Ridgerunner]

blame just means assign responsibility, you can be blamed for something and not be guilty of it.

I’m pretty sure all those Ashkenazi Jews in settlements that were recently built in the West Bank weren’t there 150 years ago. Just because a few people of a group were there does not mean all of that group has a right to be there on land forcibly take from others.

And here I thought the term Palestinian was a term in English meaning an inhabitant of Palestine where Palestine comes to us from the Greek name for it which is basically the same. Palestinian culture used to be on a village level, but all the dislocation separated people from their fellows and threw them in with other Palestinians and a broader culture and cultural identity emerged naturally. Just because a culture may share things with other cultures doesn’t mean they are one culture, for example falafel is shared amongst many cultures.

The foremost identities and loyalties in the Arab world are tribal, not national. If one does not understand that, one cannot understand anything about the Arab world.

 

[Ridgerunner]

blame just means assign responsibility, you can be blamed for something and not be guilty of it.

I’m pretty sure all those Ashkenazi Jews in settlements that were recently built in the West Bank weren’t there 150 years ago. Just because a few people of a group were there does not mean all of that group has a right to be there on land forcibly take from others.

Do you accept it that Jews have any moral right to live in the West Bank? Or do you deny that they do?