UN Panel: Israeli Settlements Are Illegal

[estesbob]

Do you accept it that Jews have any moral right to live in the West Bank? Or do you deny that they do?

The problem is not only do the arabs not believe the Jews have a moral right to live on the west bank-they don’t believe they have a Moral right to live ANYWHERE in the Middle East

 

[OneSheep]

Something needs to be understood here by a Christian. The following is not universally true, but it’s at least somewhat “culturally” true. Christians, by and large, believe God commands that we forgive our enemies no matter what. That’s not the same thing as forgetting what they did or failing to guard ourselves against a repeat.

I agree.

With many Jews, it’s not that way. The offending party must admit his wrong, express his repentence to the offended party, and must, if possible, make recompense, in order to be forgiven.

Muslims, of course, have that “Dar al Islam” thing. The Israelis live in a land Muslims regard as rightfully part of the Islamic domain, and it’s questionable whether anything will ever change that. There are more secular Muslims who don’t think of it that way, but they increasingly seem to be in the minority.

So, applying Christian concepts to the situation between Israelis and Muslims really has no application to them in their minds.

As I am not a party to any wrongs committed in the M.E. between Muslims and Jews, it is not my place to forgive either of them.

The UN, in my mind, is a corrupt political organization that dispenses its “judgments” politically. As such, I do not consider its judgments worthy of my respect. The objective facts might, to me, compel a positive or negative judgment, but the UN’s assessment of anything, of itself, does not.

Am I to conclude, Ridgerunner, that you are incapable of empathizing with both sides? I have repeatedly asked this question:

So my question is whether you, too, can empathize with both sides. If you were that farmer, could you also feel great anger and resentment? Can you see why such anger is shared by so many?

And you continue to avoid answering it. If you cannot empathize with either side, then your voice has no love in it. If you do not love the Israelis, I encourage you to do so. I think you do love them, though. And when we love people, we want to protect them; in fact, we often seek their protection over our own protection, such is the empathy and compassion we have for other humans. And when we love, we are just as capable of feeling resentment toward the enemies of those we love.

And when we feel such resentment, it is time to forgive.

Ask your parish priest about this if you think I am incorrect. This is a Catholic forum, not just some political forum or radio talk show in our secular society where everyone just blasts each other. You have a place in the answer, Ridgerunner, because you already know so much. We can encourage Muslims and Jews to forgive. Jesus was a Jew, and preached to Jews. It is our belief that Jesus came for their salvation as well as our own. Muslims believe in forgiveness, and so do Jews. We don’t have to make Christians out of all these people to solve the conflict. I have read books by at least two Jewish people who call for unconditional forgiveness. We are all capable of forgiving because we are all human.

 

[OneSheep]

Again, it is not my place to forgive some Palestinian who has killed an Israeli, nor is it my place to forgive an Israeli who has killed a Palestinian. To do either is an offense to both.

It is indeed our place to do so. I think you do love the Israelis, and so do I. And when we love people, we want to protect them; in fact, we often seek their protection over our own protection, such is the empathy and compassion we have for other humans. And when we love, we are just as capable of feeling resentment toward the enemies of those we love.

And when we feel such resentment, it is time to forgive.

Ask your parish priest about this if you think I am incorrect. This is a Catholic forum, not just some political forum or radio talk show in our secular society where everyone just blasts each other. You have a place in the answer, Ridgerunner, because you already know so much. We can encourage Muslims and Jews to forgive. Jesus was a Jew, and preached to Jews. It is our belief that Jesus came for their salvation as well as our own. Muslims believe in forgiveness, and so do Jews. We don’t have to make Christians out of all these people to solve the conflict. I have read books by at least two Jewish people who call for unconditional forgiveness. We are all capable of forgiving because we are all human.

If I was a Palestinian farmer whose land was seized in the name of Israeli security, I would be angry, even if I had no clear ownership of the land to begin with, which is often the case, but not always. If I was an Israeli who could not live peacefully in any other way than by my government’s setting up secure fortress-like zones in which I could live, I would be angry that such a thing has to be. I would be particularly angry that Arabs want me and my children dead and would act on it if they could; a feeling I do not have for them.

In that sense, and given nothing more in the way of information, yes, I can empathize with both in the sense of understanding why they feel as they do. But that does not resolve anything, since the claims each has is sufficient in their own eyes to justify their actions, and neither is likely to see it from the other’s point of view.

Whether I do or do not have empathy for one party or both is completely irrelevant to the situation or its resolution.

But empathy is a result of forgiveness, or is at least part of the process. And forgiveness has huge relevance. Jesus tells us to take the posts out of our own eyes first. You and I, Ridgerunner, are just as capable of hatred and wanting our enemies’ children to die. Israelis who have lost their children would naturally think the same way. Remember all the youths who died in those nightclubs and buses in Israel, hate is the triggered response. Punishment, an eye for an eye, is a triggered response.

Forgiveness, which includes empathy, is the antidote to hatred and resentment. As long as the two sides continue to hate and resent one another, there will be no resolution, no reconciliation. Peace is not an absence of aggression, it is much more. Jesus has a higher vision. I know this is a viewpoint you are not used to hearing, but can you see where I am going with this?

 

[estesbob]

I

Forgiveness, which includes empathy, is the antidote to hatred and resentment. As long as the two sides continue to hate and resent one another, there will be no resolution, no reconciliation. Peace is not an absence of aggression, it is much more. Jesus has a higher vision. I know this is a viewpoint you are not used to hearing, but can you see where I am going with this?

I have lots of empathy for the palestinian people. Their leadership, OTH, are murderous thugs who have caused the palestinian people nothing but sorrow and pain.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is indeed our place to do so. I think you do love the Israelis, and so do I. And when we love people, we want to protect them; in fact, we often seek their protection over our own protection, such is the empathy and compassion we have for other humans. And when we love, we are just as capable of feeling resentment toward the enemies of those we love.

And when we feel such resentment, it is time to forgive.

Ask your parish priest about this if you think I am incorrect. This is a Catholic forum, not just some political forum or radio talk show in our secular society where everyone just blasts each other. You have a place in the answer, Ridgerunner, because you already know so much. We can encourage Muslims and Jews to forgive. Jesus was a Jew, and preached to Jews. It is our belief that Jesus came for their salvation as well as our own. Muslims believe in forgiveness, and so do Jews. We don’t have to make Christians out of all these people to solve the conflict. I have read books by at least two Jewish people who call for unconditional forgiveness. We are all capable of forgiving because we are all human.

But empathy is a result of forgiveness, or is at least part of the process. And forgiveness has huge relevance. Jesus tells us to take the posts out of our own eyes first. You and I, Ridgerunner, are just as capable of hatred and wanting our enemies’ children to die. Israelis who have lost their children would naturally think the same way. Remember all the youths who died in those nightclubs and buses in Israel, hate is the triggered response. Punishment, an eye for an eye, is a triggered response.

Forgiveness, which includes empathy, is the antidote to hatred and resentment. As long as the two sides continue to hate and resent one another, there will be no resolution, no reconciliation. Peace is not an absence of aggression, it is much more. Jesus has a higher vision. I know this is a viewpoint you are not used to hearing, but can you see where I am going with this?

Empathy and forgiveness are not the same things at all. I can forgive someone without having empathy for him.

Resentment and hatred are not the same things either.

To be very frank with you, I don’t think achieving peace in the Middle East between Arabs and Israelis has anything to do with how they feel about each other. I think it’s a much more practical thing, between people who do not particularly like each other. It did come close, you know. At one time during the Clinton administration there was a plan whereby Gaza would be turned into a resort place. Big hotels, night clubs, nice beaches, etc. Some of the oil states and the U.S. were to provide the money. Israel was to provide technical know-how, water and power. the PLO was to provide security for the rich guests.

Arafat stole the money and started the intifada as cover. That’s one of the big reasons why Fatah became disfavored in Gaza and Hamas took over. Fatah made a settlement with Arafat’s widow to recover some of the money, and much of that money is invested in the U.S.

None of that; the resolution or its betrayal, had anything to do with empathy or forgiveness. The plan was purely practical; to give Palestinians business and employment opportunities that would have been life-changing. Its failure had nothing to do with empathy or forgiveness either. It had to do with practical measures and the greed that undermined them.

 

[OneSheep]

I have lots of empathy for the palestinian people. Their leadership, OTH, are murderous thugs who have caused the palestinian people nothing but sorrow and pain.

Your empathy for the Palestinians is shared by me.

Can you take the next step? Can you forgive the Palestinian leadership? (It may help to address something specific that you resent of their doing.)

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

The foremost identities and loyalties in the Arab world are tribal, not national. If one does not understand that, one cannot understand anything about the Arab world.

In the Arabian peninsula sure, but Palestine has been long settled and only 15% of the population belong to a tribe, mostly Bedouin descendants. Most Palestinians are part of clans which are basically an extended family.

Do you accept it that Jews have any moral right to live in the West Bank? Or do you deny that they do?

Define “moral right”

I have lots of empathy for the palestinian people. Their leadership, OTH, are murderous thugs who have caused the palestinian people nothing but sorrow and pain.

I read much the same things about the IRA before the independence of Ireland.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In the Arabian peninsula sure, but Palestine has been long settled and only 15% of the population belong to a tribe, mostly Bedouin descendants. Most Palestinians are part of clans which are basically an extended family.

A distinction without difference.

Primary loyalty is to the tribe whether you call it a “clan”, or an “extended family” or whatever, not to a “nationality”. All Arabs consider themselves “Arabs” as a “nation”; not “Jordanians” or “Saudi Arabians” or such. That’s as close as they come to a western sense of “nationality”. Ruling groups, of course, claim authority of a geographical location because they are unable to extend it farther and do not want to see it diminished.

But does anybody really believe the loyalties of Iraqis are to the geographical location of Iraq or to its people as a whole? Does anybody believe there is any sense of “nationhood” in Lebanon like there is of, say, Norway?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Define “moral right”

A right under whatever religion or philosophy you believes governs the matter. It would be helpful, but not necessary, that you explain what that religion or philosophy is.

 

[OneSheep]

Empathy and forgiveness are not the same things at all. I can forgive someone without having empathy for him.

I’ll have to think about that one. “Pulling the post from our own eye” means first recognizing that we both have posts. That’s empathy. “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” requires insight and understanding of the others’ point of view. That is empathy. I suppose in the sense of forgiveness as “letting go of punishment for another”, limiting forgiveness to, i.e., a dropping of desire to punish, vs. seeing another person’s point of view and desiring to help or extend compassion to the person in some way, (which is what Jesus did from the cross) then such “forgiveness light” would not necessarily involve empathy. I’d say such an approach to forgiveness perhaps falls short of what Jesus is asking of us. One would wonder a little about why such forgiveness would even take place. Would it be simply from a command to forgive? Well, it is certainly better than nothing.

Resentment and hatred are not the same things either.

I look at resentment as kind of a precursor to hatred. When it involves a negative feeling toward someone, we are called to forgive. Resentment causes blindness, just as hatred does.

To be very frank with you, I don’t think achieving peace in the Middle East between Arabs and Israelis has anything to do with how they feel about each other. I think it’s a much more practical thing, between people who do not particularly like each other. It did come close, you know. At one time during the Clinton administration there was a plan whereby Gaza would be turned into a resort place. Big hotels, night clubs, nice beaches, etc. Some of the oil states and the U.S. were to provide the money. Israel was to provide technical know-how, water and power. the PLO was to provide security for the rich guests.

Arafat stole the money and started the intifada as cover. That’s one of the big reasons why Fatah became disfavored in Gaza and Hamas took over. Fatah made a settlement with Arafat’s widow to recover some of the money, and much of that money is invested in the U.S.

None of that; the resolution or its betrayal, had anything to do with empathy or forgiveness. The plan was purely practical; to give Palestinians business and employment opportunities that would have been life-changing. Its failure had nothing to do with empathy or forgiveness either. It had to do with practical measures and the greed that undermined them.

I looked around to verify your statements about Arafat. I don’t doubt them, but I am having trouble finding a reputable source. It does appear that Arafat’s handling of money was very questionable, whether or not it was the funds for Gaza is not clear to me. The mishandling of money is another opportunity for forgiveness; hopefully the Palestinians will forgive their former leader and ultimately benefit from the funds.

I have had some time to consider what you have said about the resolutions, the negotiations, coming from practical needs. I think you are right. The negotiations have not come from the hearts involved, only between people who put away their zeal for justice long enough to hammer out a compromise. Trouble is, both sides return to a people who are still full of resentment, and so nothing works.

Therefore, it is the task of religious people of both societies, indeed all societies, to promote forgiveness ahead of any negotiations:

The year is 2015. Due to pressure from Muslim clerics in Palestine, and the Rabbinical council of Israel, both governments now have active Forgiveness Commissions, whose duties have been promotion of forgiveness within their societies, and such forgiveness has even been promoted as a healthy and spiritual way of addressing their enemies. Initially, both commissions received death threats, but as the move toward such forgiveness has caught on as truly what God wills, the bulk of society has followed the lead of their religious leaders. Some Palestinian groups have gone so far as to extend their condolences and letters of empathy concerning insecurity to the Israel people as a whole. Not coincidentally, their letters crossed paths with letters coming from Israel also expressing condolence for lives lost and expressing empathy for their situation and hardship. These letters made no mention of who is to blame. Forgiveness is truly happening.

Abbas: It appears that it is the will of the people that we reconcile the differences between our two nations.

Netanyahu: Yes, (he smiles) everywhere I turn, people are encouraging me to forgive you and your people. I have had to give in to the pressure.

Abbas: You and I both. I resisted, but then I saw it, forgiveness is the will of God.

(They shake hands)

N: It seems now that we have some business. Your people desire autonomy, to have their own nation.

A: And it is only natural that you wish our nation to recognize, also, your need for autonomy, as the state of Israel. It is amazing, however, some of the ideas coming from the forgiveness commissions.

N: Yes, we have to at least consider their ideas. The forming of a new nation, a nation that itself stands for reconciliation. A new nation with a new name that sets the example for the future of humanity, a single, new center of the world, a world with a vision of reconciliation between peoples of all nations and faiths, a nation unparalleled in its quest for human rights and freedom for all people of all faiths and ideologies.

A: Who could ever have predicted that such a nation arise out of the fires of our past?

N: Only God could predict such a thing, only God can make this happen. Indeed, it looks as if it is happening.

It’s a vision thing, Ridgerunner.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’ll have to think about that one. “Pulling the post from our own eye” means first recognizing that we both have posts. That’s empathy. “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” requires insight and understanding of the others’ point of view. That is empathy. I suppose in the sense of forgiveness as “letting go of punishment for another”, limiting forgiveness to, i.e., a dropping of desire to punish, vs. seeing another person’s point of view and desiring to help or extend compassion to the person in some way, (which is what Jesus did from the cross) then such “forgiveness light” would not necessarily involve empathy. I’d say such an approach to forgiveness perhaps falls short of what Jesus is asking of us. One would wonder a little about why such forgiveness would even take place. Would it be simply from a command to forgive? Well, it is certainly better than nothing.

I look at resentment as kind of a precursor to hatred. When it involves a negative feeling toward someone, we are called to forgive. Resentment causes blindness, just as hatred does.

I looked around to verify your statements about Arafat. I don’t doubt them, but I am having trouble finding a reputable source. It does appear that Arafat’s handling of money was very questionable, whether or not it was the funds for Gaza is not clear to me. The mishandling of money is another opportunity for forgiveness; hopefully the Palestinians will forgive their former leader and ultimately benefit from the funds.

I have had some time to consider what you have said about the resolutions, the negotiations, coming from practical needs. I think you are right. The negotiations have not come from the hearts involved, only between people who put away their zeal for justice long enough to hammer out a compromise. Trouble is, both sides return to a people who are still full of resentment, and so nothing works.

Therefore, it is the task of religious people of both societies, indeed all societies, to promote forgiveness ahead of any negotiations:

The year is 2015. Due to pressure from Muslim clerics in Palestine, and the Rabbinical council of Israel, both governments now have active Forgiveness Commissions, whose duties have been promotion of forgiveness within their societies, and such forgiveness has even been promoted as a healthy and spiritual way of addressing their enemies. Initially, both commissions received death threats, but as the move toward such forgiveness has caught on as truly what God wills, the bulk of society has followed the lead of their religious leaders. Some Palestinian groups have gone so far as to extend their condolences and letters of empathy concerning insecurity to the Israel people as a whole. Not coincidentally, their letters crossed paths with letters coming from Israel also expressing condolence for lives lost and expressing empathy for their situation and hardship. These letters made no mention of who is to blame. Forgiveness is truly happening.

Abbas: It appears that it is the will of the people that we reconcile the differences between our two nations.

Netanyahu: Yes, (he smiles) everywhere I turn, people are encouraging me to forgive you and your people. I have had to give in to the pressure.

Abbas: You and I both. I resisted, but then I saw it, forgiveness is the will of God.

(They shake hands)

N: It seems now that we have some business. Your people desire autonomy, to have their own nation.

A: And it is only natural that you wish our nation to recognize, also, your need for autonomy, as the state of Israel. It is amazing, however, some of the ideas coming from the forgiveness commissions.

N: Yes, we have to at least consider their ideas. The forming of a new nation, a nation that itself stands for reconciliation. A new nation with a new name that sets the example for the future of humanity, a single, new center of the world, a world with a vision of reconciliation between peoples of all nations and faiths, a nation unparalleled in its quest for human rights and freedom for all people of all faiths and ideologies.

A: Who could ever have predicted that such a nation arise out of the fires of our past?

N: Only God could predict such a thing, only God can make this happen. Indeed, it looks as if it is happening.

It’s a vision thing, Ridgerunner.

I think Gold Meir perhaps said it best. “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. What bothers me most is not that Arabs kill our children, but that they force us to kill theirs.”

There is a lot of truth to that. It isn’t so much a matter of resentment or hatred of others as it is a due regard for the future of their own. If Arabs in Palestine decided the very bright future they could have is worth having peace, their children would bless their memories, because that whole area could be quite prosperous with the Israelis there. Without the Israelis, it’s just one more squalid corner of the Middle East. There are Palestinians wise enough to know that. But many are not. One of the problems is the same problem they have had since 1948 and before. There are other forces in the Arab world (and now in Iran) who do not desire peace and couldn’t care less about the welfare of the Palestinians. They’re like the Nazis who found it convenient to divert attention away from their own misdeeds by scapegoating the Jews and encouraging greed for the prosperity that is Israel in the hearts of those who would destroy it in the very process of taking it.

 

[OneSheep]

I think Gold Meir perhaps said it best. “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. What bothers me most is not that Arabs kill our children, but that they force us to kill theirs.”

There is a lot of truth to that. It isn’t so much a matter of resentment or hatred of others as it is a due regard for the future of their own. If Arabs in Palestine decided the very bright future they could have is worth having peace, their children would bless their memories, because that whole area could be quite prosperous with the Israelis there. Without the Israelis, it’s just one more squalid corner of the Middle East. There are Palestinians wise enough to know that. But many are not. One of the problems is the same problem they have had since 1948 and before. There are other forces in the Arab world (and now in Iran) who do not desire peace and couldn’t care less about the welfare of the Palestinians. They’re like the Nazis who found it convenient to divert attention away from their own misdeeds by scapegoating the Jews and encouraging greed for the prosperity that is Israel in the hearts of those who would destroy it in the very process of taking it.

Ridgerunner, I like your posts, but I am really beginning to think that perhaps you have a huge resistance to extracting blame from your statements. Please, buy into a different vision. Forgive. The Palestinian leadership could have said exactly the same thing about Israelis, and it would have been just as “valid”. Jesus said it best. “Forgive your enemies” is a valid statement. “Love one another, as I have loved you” is valid and workable. Meir’s statement insinuates that their enemies’ hatred is more than their love for their children. This is an insult in either direction. Not only that, the idea that Palestinians “force” Israelis to kill their children reminds me of the time I heard from a gang kid in juvenile hall say that the violence between gangs is the same as the U.S attacking Iraq. To some degree his statement was valid. The gang mentality is that retribution is “forced”. This is a complete falsehood. No one forces us to do anything, our actions are always a matter of choice. We are to correct the child who says “He made me hit him.”

Forgive those forces in Iran. They do care, just as we care about the Israelis. There is nothing like saving a helpless people that brings out the most protective aspects of ourselves. Forgive the Nazis.

Please, Ridgerunner, stop pointing your finger at people. We are all to blame, to the degree that we do not forgive and promote forgiveness. Finger-pointing goes nowhere. The scenario I wrote above between Netanyahu and Abbas takes a miracle, and we are a Church that believes in miracles. The finger-pointing goes nowhere. It is contrary to our faith.

Forgive, please. This is our faith. Ask your local priest or bishop if you do not believe me. This site is a discussion on a Catholic approach, and Jesus begins with a call to love and forgive, not to point judgment and condemnation.

Okay, the sermon for the day is officially over. I know, you do not mean to write in ways that are contrary to Catholicism. But please, consider my requests.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridgerunner, I like your posts, but I am really beginning to think that perhaps you have a huge resistance to extracting blame from your statements. Please, buy into a different vision. Forgive. The Palestinian leadership could have said exactly the same thing about Israelis, and it would have been just as “valid”. Jesus said it best. “Forgive your enemies” is a valid statement. “Love one another, as I have loved you” is valid and workable. Meir’s statement insinuates that their enemies’ hatred is more than their love for their children. This is an insult in either direction. Not only that, the idea that Palestinians “force” Israelis to kill their children reminds me of the time I heard from a gang kid in juvenile hall say that the violence between gangs is the same as the U.S attacking Iraq. To some degree his statement was valid. The gang mentality is that retribution is “forced”. This is a complete falsehood. No one forces us to do anything, our actions are always a matter of choice. We are to correct the child who says “He made me hit him.”

Forgive those forces in Iran. They do care, just as we care about the Israelis. There is nothing like saving a helpless people that brings out the most protective aspects of ourselves. Forgive the Nazis.

Please, Ridgerunner, stop pointing your finger at people. We are all to blame, to the degree that we do not forgive and promote forgiveness. Finger-pointing goes nowhere. The scenario I wrote above between Netanyahu and Abbas takes a miracle, and we are a Church that believes in miracles. The finger-pointing goes nowhere. It is contrary to our faith.

Forgive, please. This is our faith. Ask your local priest or bishop if you do not believe me. This site is a discussion on a Catholic approach, and Jesus begins with a call to love and forgive, not to point judgment and condemnation.

Okay, the sermon for the day is officially over. I know, you do not mean to write in ways that are contrary to Catholicism. But please, consider my requests.

I appreciate your solicitude. But I still say it is not given to me to forgive the combatants in the struggle between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, as I am not the person wronged by any of it, nor am I a priest in their confessions, nor am I God.

I encourage you to think about what Golda Meir said, and not reject it out of hand, as you seem to have done. Ms. Meir is not here to further explain her statement, but in defending Israel against its Arab enemies, were the Israelis not “forced” to kill the Arab soldiers (their “children”) or die themselves?

I’m terribly sorry for “pointing my finger” if that offends you, but in this life we have obligations to make judgments about right and wrong. We’re not free to excuse all things, nor did Jesus Himself do so. He was forgiving, but He did not excuse evil. He called it what it was, and called upon people to change their behavior, not just how they thought about it.

It is right to pray for miracles, but to rely on them to cure all evils is the sin of presumption.

To “love our neighbor” is not to go all squishy over what we imagine his feelings might be. It is to desire the best for him and, if open to us, to act in accordance with that desire.

I firmly believe the best thing for the Palestinian Arabs is to immediately make peace with Israel and start drawing up plans for the establishment of good schools, factories and other facilities in the West Bank, to arrange for yet more Palestinians to work in Israel, and to allow those Jews now in the West Bank to remain there. They could perhaps then work on a confederation arrangement. Israel would be Israel. The West Bank would be Palestine, and they would have a mutual defense agreement.

When it comes to love and forgiveness between peoples, one might look at the relationships, after WWII, between the U.S. and Germany and Japan. The U.S. insisted on purging the evil elements, but then acted positively to enhance the welfare of those peoples. We did not sympathize with the allure Nazism or Japanese imperialism had for those people. We called evil what it was. But we “loved” the Germans and the Japanese; not in an emotional way, but in a practical way.

 

[OneSheep]

I appreciate your solicitude. But I still say it is not given to me to forgive the combatants in the struggle between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, as I am not the person wronged by any of it, nor am I a priest in their confessions, nor am I God.

However, it is our place to forgive anyone you hold in contempt. Contempt is what I am hearing in your posts, Ridgerunner, and forgive is what the Gospel is telling us to do.

I encourage you to think about what Golda Meir said, and not reject it out of hand, as you seem to have done. Ms. Meir is not here to further explain her statement, but in defending Israel against its Arab enemies, were the Israelis not “forced” to kill the Arab soldiers (their “children”) or die themselves?

When it comes to immediate protection, we do what we have to. But so much of what happens over there is “eye-for-an-eye” retribution. That is different, it has no end.

I’m terribly sorry for “pointing my finger” if that offends you, but in this life we have obligations to make judgments about right and wrong. We’re not free to excuse all things, nor did Jesus Himself do so. He was forgiving, but He did not excuse evil. He called it what it was, and called upon people to change their behavior, not just how they thought about it.

Hmmm. So it is our place to pull the posts out of other people’s eyes, but it is not our place to forgive? You are missing the mark here. Forgiveness is our obligation, but you continue to find ways around doing so. Jesus’ commandments are to love God and one another. Contempt is not love.

It is right to pray for miracles, but to rely on them to cure all evils is the sin of presumption.

When Jesus asked us to forgive everyone, He was not being presumptive.

To “love our neighbor” is not to go all squishy over what we imagine his feelings might be. It is to desire the best for him and, if open to us, to act in accordance with that desire.

To go “all squishy” was exactly what Jesus did. He said that what we do to the least is what we do unto Him. An oppressed people under occupation can certainly be considered some of the “least”. Please here suppress your urge to blame the Palestinians themselves for their own oppression. One cannot talk about love without sounding a little “squishy”.

I firmly believe the best thing for the Palestinian Arabs is to immediately make peace with Israel and start drawing up plans for the establishment of good schools, factories and other facilities in the West Bank, to arrange for yet more Palestinians to work in Israel, and to allow those Jews now in the West Bank to remain there. They could perhaps then work on a confederation arrangement. Israel would be Israel. The West Bank would be Palestine, and they would have a mutual defense agreement.

Did you leave out, on purpose, the part about Israel making peace with the Palestinians? Again, you make it appear that the situation over there is to be blamed on the Palestinians, and you relieve the Israelis of any responsibility.

I repeat, we are all responsible. It is our place to encourage our government to work with Israel to forgive, reconcile with, the Palestinians, and to encourage the Palestinians in the same way. Are you capable of seeing this? I can be a very patient person.

The hatred has to be addressed on both sides or the violence, at least attempts at violence, will continue.

 

[Ridgerunner]

However, it is our place to forgive anyone you hold in contempt. Contempt is what I am hearing in your posts, Ridgerunner, and forgive is what the Gospel is telling us to do. No, no, no. If I hold someone in contempt, it is not for me to forgive them for my act in holding them in contempt.

When it comes to immediate protection, we do what we have to. But so much of what happens over there is “eye-for-an-eye” retribution. That’s your judgment of it. It is not self-demonstrative. That is different, it has no end.

Hmmm. So it is our place to pull the posts out of other people’s eyes, but it is not our place to forgive? You are missing the mark here. Forgiveness is our obligation, but you continue to find ways around doing so. Jesus’ commandments are to love God and one another. Contempt is not love. Oh, it’s entirely possible to have contempt for what someone does or thinks and still love them in a Christian way. Loving our neighbor is not a matter of what we think about their acts or how we feel about them, but of what we desire and do.

When Jesus asked us to forgive everyone, He was not being presumptive. **Nor was he when he drove the money-changers from the temple or called the Pharisees “whited sepulchers”. Now, there’s some contempt for you. **

To go “all squishy” was exactly what Jesus did. He said that what we do to the least is what we do unto Him. An oppressed people under occupation can certainly be considered some of the “least”. Please here suppress your urge to blame the Palestinians themselves for their own oppression. One cannot talk about love without sounding a little “squishy”. The Palestinians are not entirely to blame for their situation. Their Arab neighbors are actually more to blame. And they could end their “oppression” tomorrow.

Did you leave out, on purpose, the part about Israel making peace with the Palestinians? Again, you make it appear that the situation over there is to be blamed on the Palestinians, and you relieve the Israelis of any responsibility.

I repeat, we are all responsible. It is our place to encourage our government to work with Israel to forgive, reconcile with, the Palestinians, and to encourage the Palestinians in the same way. Are you capable of seeing this? I can be a very patient person.

The hatred has to be addressed on both sides or the violence, at least attempts at violence, will continue.

If the Palestinians did what I suggested in my post, they would, indeed, have peace with Israel. It would be in Israel’s best interests too. It may come as a surprise that many Palestinians do not hate Israel or Israelis. I certainly know some. What that place really needs is to reach its potential. Likely it can only happen in some kind of confederation similar (but undoubtedly looser) than that of the Swiss Cantons. They need a “common market” including both Israel and the West Bank. Palestinian business people will, if they trust you, tell you exactly that.

Look, I understand that you are approaching this from the moral standpoint you think best. To me, it’s more a practical thing and, in that practicality, I think the moral objectives are more likely to be achieved. That region is potentially very productive, very rich for all. I believe if people are well able to support themselves and their families through their work and their intelligence, their happiness will be greatly enhanced. Israel will not go away except through some exceptional bloodbath that would decimate both populations. Palestinian Arabs live in peace in Israel and have a much higher standard of living than do Arabs in the West Bank or Gaza or in any Arab country other than the oil states. They don’t have to worry about going through checkpoints or keeping the fruits of their labor. Some of them are high officers in the Israeli Defense Force and in the Israeli parliament. To me, that testifies eloquently that making peace with Israel is in the Palestinian Arabs’ best interests, and that the continued failure to get it done is not due to hatred, bad faith or anything else on Israel’s part.

Oh, and I realize you are not trying to be “holier than thou”, but you do get close to the edge of the cliff at times. Might want to think that through. You and I have a disagreement about what will best enhance the chances of decent and safe lives in that part of the world and what, exactly, prevents it from happening. That’s all.

 

[OneSheep]

You and I have a disagreement about what will best enhance the chances of decent and safe lives in that part of the world and what, exactly, prevents it from happening. That’s all.

True.

No, no, no. If I hold someone in contempt, it is not for me to forgive them for my act in holding them in contempt.

Your contempt is a result of their trespass against you in some way. They may have trespassed against your morals or ideals. This is a time for forgiveness. It is also a time for doing something to correct the action. As you previously pointed out, forgiveness is not letting people walk all over you or letting people continue doing hurtful things.

Call it what you will, “holier than thou”, or whatever, there is a Catholic answer to this: “Am I to hold people in contempt, or am I to forgive them?” If you find a priest that says that we are to hold people in contempt instead of forgiving them, I want to have a talk with that man, to find out what he is thinking.

Forgiveness is the Catholic answer, not holding people in contempt.

Oh, it’s entirely possible to have contempt for what someone does or thinks and still love them in a Christian way. Loving our neighbor is not a matter of what we think about their acts or how we feel about them, but of what we desire and do.

This is true, but extremely hard to do. I find it very helpful to understand why people do what they do, even the worst things, and come to a point where I can say “I would or could do what they did, if I had the same experiences and circumstances.” It is extremely difficult to separate the sin from the sinner. So, rather than hold contempt, I forgive the sin too, in that I come to a point of understanding where I no longer wish to punish, but I find a bit of sadness about the situation. People do bad things to people that they see have no value, or negative value. Blame is a big factor in creating such blindness to value.

Forgiveness means coming to a point where we do not hold their sin against them, that we no longer think in terms of “they get what they deserve” in a negative way. This forgiveness is not what I am hearing in your posts. Yes, what we do is very important, and the first of what we do is to forgive. Forgiveness is the single most specified action that Jesus asks us to do. With forgiveness, we no longer feel negativity for the person. Is this not your experience?

Nor was (Jesus) presumptive when he drove the money-changers from the temple or called the Pharisees “whited sepulchers”. Now, there’s some contempt for you.

Ah, the contradictory aspect of our Gospel. Well, I am glad you brought it up. The way I look at it, Jesus was just as human as I am, but all God too. But if He was (is) as human as I am, then He was just as capable of getting really angry and feeling contempt for people as I am. Hey, we all make mistakes, and we all say one thing and do another. To me, hypocrisy is the rule rather than the exception, and I am certainly referring to myself in that statement. Jesus never said “hold people and their sins in contempt” though. He did say “do not judge”, and he forgave the crowd from the cross. I know that he forgave the Pharisees and money-changers too. Did He forgive them before He criticized them? Wow, does writing that sentence hit home here. (lots of pausing)

Am I forgiving your refusal to admit that the Israelis are partly responsible for the violence in the Holy Land and admit that what they are doing is also immoral? Or am I holding you in contempt? Do you see what I mean about hypocrisy? (more pausing)

Okay, I took the time and prayer to forgive. I put myself in your shoes for a moment. Why would I refuse to admit that the Israelis have some culpability in the situation? I would do so because I resent those who side with the “other”. If I as Ridgerunner admit that Israel is partly culpable, I am joining the the other side. To take sides is part of our nature, part of our God-given nature. Not only would I be taking the other side by such an admission of partial Israeli culpability, I would be giving up membership of the side I am on.

I, as Onesheep, can accept this position, it is okay. I could very well think the same way if I were in your shoes.

I, Onesheep, in Ridgerunner’s shoes, refuse to admit that the Israelis are partially responsible because then I would have to admit that Onesheep is correct in some respect, which I also refuse to do. This would mean that he won.

I, as Onesheep, can accept this position also. It’s okay.

Of course this is all presumptive guesswork. I cannot possibly know all of what you are thinking and feeling.

Our desire to win is also a gift from God. I like winning too. And here is my response to the hypothetical Ridgerunner:

Ridgerunner, if we forgive everyone, even the “Arab neighbors”, we all win. And you aren’t changing sides by admitting Israel is partly responsible. There are many Israelis very concerned about their safety who admit that their own acts, especially those concerning the settlements, are part of the problem. These are people who detest, like all of us, the violence coming from Gaza and the West bank.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are the solution. Blame, as a finger-pointing away from ourselves, is a roadblock to this. A older sister from Italy working in our parish holds her hand like a gun and says “See, when I point my hand like this, there are three fingers pointing back at me.”

 

[Ridgerunner]

True.

Your contempt is a result of their trespass against you in some way. They may have trespassed against your morals or ideals. This is a time for forgiveness. .

Call it what you will, “holier than thou”, or whatever, there is a Catholic answer to this: “Am I to hold people in contempt, or am I to forgive them?” If you find a priest that says that we are to hold people in contempt instead of forgiving them, I want to have a talk with that man, to find out what he is thinking.

Forgiveness is the Catholic answer, not holding people in contempt.

Forgiveness means coming to a point where we do not hold their sin against them, that we no longer think in terms of “they get what they deserve” in a negative way. This forgiveness is not what I am hearing in your posts. Yes, what we do is very important, and the first of what we do is to forgive. Forgiveness is the single most specified action that Jesus asks us to do. With forgiveness, we no longer feel negativity for the person. Is this not your experience?

Ah, the contradictory aspect of our Gospel. Well, I am glad you brought it up. The way I look at it, Jesus was just as human as I am, but all God too. But if He was (is) as human as I am, then He was just as capable of getting really angry and feeling contempt for people as I am. Hey, we all make mistakes, and we all say one thing and do another. To me, hypocrisy is the rule rather than the exception, and I am certainly referring to myself in that statement. Jesus never said “hold people and their sins in contempt” though. He did say “do not judge”, and he forgave the crowd from the cross. I know that he forgave the Pharisees and money-changers too. Did He forgive them before He criticized them? Wow, does writing that sentence hit home here. (lots of pausing)

Am I forgiving your refusal to admit that the Israelis are partly responsible for the violence in the Holy Land and admit that what they are doing is also immoral? Or am I holding you in contempt? Do you see what I mean about hypocrisy? (more pausing)

Okay, I took the time and prayer to forgive. I put myself in your shoes for a moment. Why would I refuse to admit that the Israelis have some culpability in the situation? I would do so because I resent those who side with the “other”. If I as Ridgerunner admit that Israel is partly culpable, I am joining the the other side. To take sides is part of our nature, part of our God-given nature. Not only would I be taking the other side by such an admission of partial Israeli culpability, I would be giving up membership of the side I am on.

I, as Onesheep, can accept this position, it is okay. I could very well think the same way if I were in your shoes.

I, Onesheep, in Ridgerunner’s shoes, refuse to admit that the Israelis are partially responsible because then I would have to admit that Onesheep is correct in some respect, which I also refuse to do. This would mean that he won.

I, as Onesheep, can accept this position also. It’s okay.

Our desire to win is also a gift from God. I like winning too. And here is my response to the hypothetical Ridgerunner:

Ridgerunner, if we forgive everyone, even the “Arab neighbors”, we all win. And you aren’t changing sides by admitting Israel is partly responsible. There are many Israelis very concerned about their safety who admit that their own acts, especially those concerning the settlements, are part of the problem. These are people who detest, like all of us, the violence coming from Gaza and the West bank.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are the solution. Blame, as a finger-pointing away from ourselves, is a roadblock to this. A older sister from Italy working in our parish holds her hand like a gun and says “See, when I point my hand like this, there are three fingers pointing back at me.”

Never did I say that no Israeli has ever wronged a Palestinian. I’m sure some have. But I do not believe the Israeli policies of self-defense are fundamentally wrong. I do believe the genocidal position that prevails among many Arabs in the region is entirely wrong and fully worthy of contempt.

Just so you know, I do not hold individuals in contempt unless I know a great deal about them as individuals. But, as an example, I held Yasser Arafat in contempt because he was an unrepentant murderer, extortionist and thief, and victimized his own people.

But it is not for me to forgive or not forgive him for his misdeeds. It’s for the Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs to do that; the people whom he harmed. More importantly, it is for God to forgive or not forgive him. It is believed by at least some Arabs that Arafat was murdered by his own. If so, they either didn’t forgive him, or perhaps did forgive him but felt him to be a deadly threat to them.

You may recall that I have Palestinian Arab friends, and their views are little, if any, different from mine. Others, of course, would disagree.

And possibly the nun you mentioned was indicating to you that you should not judge the rightness or wrongness of the conduct of others. But I have my doubts.

 

[OneSheep]

Never did I say that no Israeli has ever wronged a Palestinian. I’m sure some have. But I do not believe the Israeli policies of self-defense are fundamentally wrong. I do believe the genocidal position that prevails among many Arabs in the region is entirely wrong and fully worthy of contempt.

There is no policy of self defense that is fundamentally wrong, generally speaking.

Just so you know, I do not hold individuals in contempt unless I know a great deal about them as individuals. But, as an example, I held Yasser Arafat in contempt because he was an unrepentant murderer, extortionist and thief, and victimized his own people.

The Catholic answer, again, is to forgive. I pray that you some day forgive Arafat. There is more to understand why he did what he did and the nature of his blindness than what you already know. I am not excusing what he did, if the accusations are true. I am saying that understanding a person in the context of their own blindness is a means of understanding their actions and ultimately forgiving the person.

But it is not for me to forgive or not forgive him for his misdeeds. It’s for the Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs to do that; the people whom he harmed. More importantly, it is for God to forgive or not forgive him. It is believed by at least some Arabs that Arafat was murdered by his own. If so, they either didn’t forgive him, or perhaps did forgive him but felt him to be a deadly threat to them.

**
Again, we are obligated to forgive. This is the Catholic answer.** I am reading from your posts that you refuse to believe this, so I again ask that you refer to your local priest or bishop for confirmation and get back to me if you get a contrary answer.

And possibly the nun you mentioned was indicating to you that you should not judge the rightness or wrongness of the conduct of others. But I have my doubts.

The sister (nuns are cloistered) was saying that we are not to judge, just as Jesus said not to judge. This does not mean that we are not to go about correcting behaviors that are hurtful. It does mean that when we do so, we are to forgive and deal with others with love and kindness, even when we have to be firm. We are to consider the needs of the other, and remember that we all are capable of doing really bad stuff. You could take it up with her. She is a feisty one, loves Ferraris, and we all love her.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Catholic answer, again, is to forgive. I pray that you some day forgive Arafat. There is more to understand why he did what he did and the nature of his blindness than what you already know. I am not excusing what he did, if the accusations are true. I am saying that understanding a person in the context of their own blindness is a means of understanding their actions and ultimately forgiving the person.

**
Again, we are obligated to forgive. This is the Catholic answer.** I am reading from your posts that you refuse to believe this, so I again ask that you refer to your local priest or bishop for confirmation and get back to me if you get a contrary answer.

It is not for me to forgive Arafat or not forgive him. He did no harm to me. To purport to forgive him for his having injured others is to demean his victims and tacitly approve the wrongs done to them.

Many of Arafat’s actions were objectively evil. We have to accept that. Whether his mother beat him during his potty training or his first girlfriend jilted him might make him less culpable subjectively, but not objectively.

 

[Cider]

Illegal according to what? To some ruling of the unspeakably corrupt UN that calls Zionism “racism” but calls the warring factions of the Palestinians a “nation”? Certainly not illegal under Israeli law. Under Sharia law perhaps? Under the law of who bribes whom?

What you mean the UN that created the modern state of Israel and that Israel is a member of? It was legal for them to create the nations boundaries in 1948 but it’s illegal now for them them to enforce said boundaries? Illogical.