UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[kenofken]

So basically, what you are saying is that if we do not bow down to terrorists, we are responsible for their actions.

It is interesting to speculate which one of our freedoms will be the one which, when we have given it up in response to terrorist threats, will be the one which will cause you to change your mind.

There are radical Muslims who feel the whole world should be subject to Sharia law. Should we acquiesce because the terrorists will kill innocents if we don’t? Because if we continue to give in to all terrorist demands, we will get there. Or is it just that you don’t think the freedom of speech is as worthy of defending?

Desecration of the Eucharist is just as abhorrent to me as the burning of the Koran could possibly be to any Muslim. However, Catholics do not respond to this disgusting practice by the further evil of murdering innocent and unrelated people. So apparently our deepest religious feelings are of less account, and behavior that offends them is acceptable, because we are not terrorists. But if we started killing people, we would be able to get people to stop. Except for the part where we go to hell after we die, it is a pretty good deal.*

I didn’t say the pastor should have burned the Koran. All I said is that he was not responsible for the murders.

–Jen

*For anyone who is brain-impaired, e.g. if the Florida pastor is reading this, I would like to make it clear that this is dark humor and I am not in any way advocating violence by anyone against anyone for any reason.

You’re reading from the same script that Muslims use to excuse or prevaricate about their own extremists. If “talk is just talk,” why do we and the Brits routinely deport or refuse entry to radical imams, seize their assets and assign predator drones to them? Many of these guys have no role in planning or ordering and specific attacks. They’re doing nothing more than exercising their free speech. If this Florida pastor is not responsible for any of the consequences that flow from his reckless words and actions, than neither are his Muslim counterparts.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Like I said, way to promote your religion of peace. So let’s recap: Pastor is a fool, and the Muslims who killed the tourists are murderers.

I think you nailed it. Can we move on now?

 

[Ariobarzanes]

So it was stupid for the pastor to burn the Koran, but you’re not going to hold him liable in any form for the harm it causes. This is called giving free range to his (the pastors) hate speech. If you can’t agree he needs to be held accountable for his actions then it seems to me like you think this is ok. Are there other moral issues that you feel strongly about but don’t hold people accountable for?

That sounds an awful lot like punishing people for “Thought Crimes.” It is absolutely absurd for Atheists to champion human freedom when they simultaneously declare non-criminal human behavior to be punishable by law. If you offended a Christian, and he found and murdered you, YOU’D BE TO BLAME, because YOU offended him. Does that make any sense?

 

[Darryl1958]

To the extent that atheism is so intimately connected to the secular left, they share the same totalitarian impulses, where even thoughts can be deemed criminal.

 

[Darryl1958]

So it was stupid for the pastor to burn the Koran, but you’re not going to hold him liable in any form for the harm it causes. This is called giving free range to his (the pastors) hate speech. If you can’t agree he needs to be held accountable for his actions then it seems to me like you think this is ok. Are there other moral issues that you feel strongly about but don’t hold people accountable for?

Most practicing Catholics find abortion an abomination, but nevertheless do not believe that abortionists should be shot to death on that account.
That would be one issue.

 

[lynx]

That sounds an awful lot like punishing people for “Thought Crimes.”

Burning one’s holy text seems no more a crime than burning one’s national flag. Why treat the two differently?

It is absolutely absurd for Atheists to champion human freedom when they simultaneously declare non-criminal human behavior to be punishable by law.

In the future, quote me when you make broad generalizations of what you think I believe.

If you offended a Christian, and he found and murdered you, YOU’D BE TO BLAME, because YOU offended him. Does that make any sense?

It makes sense i’d be partly to blame.

 

[lynx]

Most practicing Catholics find abortion an abomination, but nevertheless do not believe that abortionists should be shot to death on that account.
That would be one issue.

I’m not saying take legal action, unless you can quote me on it, i’m saying hold him accountable for some of the blame. You can’t imprison someone for exercising their 1st amendment rights, like the WBC, but you can still blame them and hold them accountable for the damage they cause. How you ask? First, stop listening to anything this man says. Second, shun him from remaining society. Without an outlet for his message he’s effectively dead.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Burning one’s holy text seems no more a crime than burning one’s national flag. Why treat the two differently?

I have no problem with people burning the flag either. I worship God. I am loyal to ideals and principles. Ideals and principles that “these united states” abandoned with Abraham Lincoln. In fact, next Saturday, lets have a Bible, Koran, and flag burning party at my house. I’ll have my friend cook up some of his home-brewed honey wheat beer and we can grill some brats with onions and peppers.

 

[lynx]

I have no problem with people burning the flag either. I worship God. I am loyal to ideals and principles. Ideals and principles that “these united states” abandoned with Abraham Lincoln. In fact, next Saturday, lets have a Bible, Koran, and flag burning party at my house. I’ll have my friend cook up some of his home-brewed honey wheat beer and we can grill some brats with onions and peppers.

In spite of my face i’m not sure how to respond to this. It displays strong integrity of character (which I appreciate), while at the same time disagreeing with something I find fundamentally important, holding a physical representation of America and its ideals in high regard. Perhaps i’ve grown materialistic in my old age (mid-twenties)

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Exactly. Those who say the Pastor has done nothing wrong and is not to blame should perhaps look at their own political agenda/motives for failing to see the clear blame that the Pastor deserves.

Let me give an example I gave on a different thread about this. John and his girlfriend Jane are out drinking in a pub, and a man called Bob walks past and shouts that John’s girlfriend is ugly and a whore. John then punches Bob in the face.

Is Bob to blame for being punched? Well, yes he clearly wanted a reaction and he got one. John is still responsible for his own actions, but who are you going to have the more sympathy for? The aggressor or the “responding” aggression?

To be honest, this whole situation reminds me of some stupid person poking a bull in the eye with a stick - to prove that a bull will react aggressively.

Exactly. I hope the congregation swill see this man for what he really is, but somehow, I imagine this will just add fuel to their fire.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

In spite of my face i’m not sure how to respond to this. It displays strong integrity of character (which I appreciate), while at the same time disagreeing with something I find fundamentally important, holding a physical representation of America and its ideals in high regard. Perhaps i’ve grown materialistic in my old age (mid-twenties)

The scales fell off my eyes about 4 years ago. I know where you’re coming from. This is the only physical representation that means anything to me anymore.

http://elegantgiftsandtreasures.com/images/products/32220.jpg

 

[Robert_Bay]

NOTICE

No name calling

Post charitably

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

"UN death toll in Afghan attack may hit 20

Deaths occur when demonstrations turn violent over a reported Quran burning in the US, official says

KABUL, Afghanistan — The death toll in an attack on the U.N. compound in the northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif could be as high as 20 after a protest turned violent in response to a reported Quran-burning in the United States, officials tell Reuters. "…

Entire article: msnbc.msn.com/id/42376051/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Instead of getting riled up, p’d off about this, and trying to do something to stop it, many people take the other path … fear and intimidation … the perfect silencer. As long as the latter occurs in the majority, these barbaric scare tactics will continue. Yet, others buy into the lie of ‘multiculturalism’. Islam has no interest in integration with Western society. At worst, it wants to dominate. At least, it wants to live apart, separate from non-Muslim Westerners.

Stand up for human rights! Stand up for Western values!

 

[revert_jen]

First, stop listening to anything this man says. Second, shun him from remaining society. Without an outlet for his message he’s effectively dead.

This part we can agree on. Just not the reason for it. I say, don’t listen to him for what he actually did–even if there had been no reprisals, his actions were not admirable. You say don’t listen to him because of what other people did in response to what he did. Perhaps we are closer than we think. I think we can agree that he is probably self-serving and self-promoting, and any people who were listening to him before should stop.

–Jen

 

[a_priori]

A pastor bloviates and people die. If you really want to impress people, go over there and tell them what you think of them face to face. Working within the political process to affect change to deal with emerging threats from militant Islamists is fine. Blathering about Islam simply for effect is just flatulence. It feels good, gets the attention of a few people and then disappears.

 

[JackyB]

Free will, one of my most precious gifts, my actions, my responsibility. Always made it clear to my kids, don’t come home blaming anyone else. Moved to a ‘1st’ world country, the blame game played to a fine art. We all make mistakes, do the wrong thing from time to time, we all should take responsibility for them, how else do we learn? They killed the UN staff because they wanted to.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

In a world where only you exist, it is very easy to say MY actions, MY responsibility. But in the REAL world, our actions affect the actions of others, their actions affect the actions of still others, and so on. If you can FORESEE that by doing something hateful and foolish (like burning the Koran, insulting someone’s mother, whatever) someone else will be hurt or killed, then it is your responsibility NOT to do something hateful or foolish. In fact, it is your responsibility NOT to do something like that in the first place, but if you can anticipate that something awful may happen to someone else as a result, and you CHOOSE to do it anyway, then you are responsible for FAR MORE than the original foolish action.

God gave us intelligence and forethought for a reason. We live in this world together. We KNOW that our actions affect the actions of those around us and we MUST act accordingly. If we CHOOSE not to take this into account, or worse, if we intentionally TEMPT or provoke others to perform immoral actions as a result of our own behavior, then we are at least partially responsible for the outcome. To say that we are not is not taking full responsibility for our actions.

 

[jilly4ski]

I want to know if the man actually burned the Koran or did he only burn a translation? Because a translation of the Koran is not their holy book. It might symbolize the pastors hatred, but is not defiling god. It would be like someone trying to desecrate a host from a protestant denomination in order to offend Catholics. Since they don’t have valid Eucharist, we would see it as bad because of the hate of the person, but they would not be defiling/desecrating God.

Another example, there was a tabernacle broken into in SC I think, and we assume by a satanist, since the Blessed Sacrament was the only thing taken, then Catholics go out and burn/kill a bunch of known satanists or pagans or atheists, that’s close enough right? Now in this case something illegal was actually done, but that doesn’t mean we can go out and kill people.

I think the whole problem with “inciting violence” is that the pastor didn’t tell people to get their guns and form a mob against someone (which is inciting violence), but he did an action which was responded to with violence (which is not allowed in our society). So in this case I believe the legal term of “inciting violence’” is misused, though I suppose it could be used in a non-legal sense and be correct.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Of course, this violence was not unexpected. That doesn’t mean it is acceptable or excusable in any way.

"Deadly Protests for Koran Burning Reach Kandahar

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — Violent protests over the burning of a Koran in Florida flared for a second straight day, with young men rampaging through the streets of this southern capital, flying Taliban flags and wielding sticks.

Nine people were killed and 81 injured in the disturbances, all from bullet wounds, according to Abdul Qayoum Pakhla, head of the provincial health department. "…

Entire article: nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/asia/03afghanistan.html?_r=1&hp

 

[SwizzleStick]

Instead of getting riled up, p’d off about this, and trying to do something to stop it, many people take the other path … fear and intimidation … the perfect silencer. As long as the latter occurs in the majority, these barbaric scare tactics will continue. Yet, others buy into the lie of ‘multiculturalism’. Islam has no interest in integration with Western society. At worst, it wants to dominate. At least, it wants to live apart, separate from non-Muslim Westerners.

Stand up for human rights! Stand up for Western values!

The PC and tolerance nuts may yet prove to be the end of our way of life if they have their way.