Unconditional love, hell

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Thanks Margy,
Thats kind of what im getting at. I feel that by avoiding sin so agressively we have to remove ourselves from the world altogether, which to me, seems not what the point was. Its challenging because at whatpoint do you try to sterilize your environment (ie move to a monastery) versus when you take an acceptable loss (ie I have to put up with some things in order to live). Our world is a sinful place. No one wants to end up in hell, but by segragating yourself comepletely isnt that a form of hell?
 
Servant31 said:
I think for me I wonder if thre is a lot we dont know. Like Padre Pio said "pray hope and dont worry"
Sounds good to me tbh. But someone else said “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” Some think we should do everything to avoid sin. Others seem to think that we shouldnt let that avoidance shape our lives, but instead have faith is Gods mercy….
Like me fr example, dating while beng chaste is very difficult. When all is said and done I basically dont date at all anymore. Would love to but people just dont understand chastity. I wonder if God wants me to be alone my entire life or be chaste?? Some say money isnt a bad thing as long as it doesnt get in the way of your relationship with God, but the Blessed Mother said at Fatima “fly from riches, love poverty” But how does one give your gifts to the world? Sorry if this sounds like a complaint, just getting a bit confused on all this myslf…
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I understand much of what you are saying.
I believe there are BUNCHES of things we do not know.
I have Faith, question some things, but don’t expect or even want some answers because of my Faith
It would seem God wants me to be alone, too, yet somehow that seems wrong as well.
“Fy from riches, love poverty”, well, again, there’s a bunch we don’t know. Maybe If you have riches, use it well and do not love it and the power it gives you more than God.
I don’t think God wants us to be so rich that we forget Him. Then again, I don’t think He wants us to be so destitute that we forget Him that way, either. The difference is the odd power money has. That is what’s risky.
It has been very challenging being in the pickle that I am in. I really don’t think he wanted me homeless, and all that that entails. But I am not above those issues, either. I would do well to remember that, and that is, admittedly, challenging at times, too. May I never forget or take what He does give me for granted. (I am grateful for things He doesn’t give me, too. That’s a big part of my prayers.) That, I think, is the message of reconciling the money issue with God.
Just my thought…
 
I am not clergy, but the only thing I can think of is that parents love their children unconditionally, yet have to punish their children when they do wrong.

Young children don’t know better when they do wrong, but we grown-up children DO know better, and therefore we are flagrantly and willfully disobeying the most authoritative Being in the Universe.

I truly believe that God loves us unconditionally, but that does not mean that He gives us a free pass to run around willy-nilly doing as we please while showing our middle digit to the sky. And if we do… we need to see be sorry we did so.

It seems to me that mortal sins are sins that are committed willfully and without coersion (NOTE: not all willfully committed sins are mortal, but I think all mortal sins are committed willfully).

I had an english teacher tell us once; “I don’t give you your grades. You earn them. I’m just a book keeper.” This guy really liked us personally, but he had laid down the law, and expected the rules to be followed.

Maybe that’s how it works? At least, that’s how I look at it. 🤷
 
thistle said:
If a person is in a state of mortal sin they can make an act of perfect contrition which is conditional upon their intent to get to Confession as soon as possible. If they really can make such an act and they die before getting to Confession they would be saved.
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Thank you for your response. And if they cannot make an act of perfect contrition even though they desire to, because they die beforehand or are incapacitated, does that mean they go to hell?
 
Margy1948 said:
But how will you ever find a spouse if you don’t date anymore?
Someone has sent me the requirements of a mortal sin and it sounds to me like your sins never did qualify as a felony (I guess that’s the equivalent of mortal sin) because you have to WANT to separate yourself from the Lord.
I had a friend who was, in my opinion, a good man. His wife died and I guess he was intimate with a person and felt guilty about it because he said he really needed to go to Confession, which he did.
The priest told him to get married again!
If I were acting as your attorney in front of the Lord I would say: **Lord, my client is not the one at fault, it’s whatever saint was supposed to be working on a happy marriage for him/her! **
Join Christian Mingle or something…or, make an appt to talk to a priest about the single people in your area and how to meet them.
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Servant31 said:
Thanks Margy,
Thats kind of what im getting at. I feel that by avoiding sin so agressively we have to remove ourselves from the world altogether, which to me, seems not what the point was. Its challenging because at whatpoint do you try to sterilize your environment (ie move to a monastery) versus when you take an acceptable loss (ie I have to put up with some things in order to live). Our world is a sinful place. No one wants to end up in hell, but by segragating yourself comepletely isnt that a form of hell?
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These are my thoughts as well. We can’t do it all. We can only strive and ask for forgiveness when we falter. I can’t beat myself up for failing because I always will, though hopefully, not in a grand way. I will always fail, but He will always love me. Not that I should take that for granted, thus, I must always strive.
 
Yes I agree about the knowledge and consent part. However my point derives more from circumstance. Say soldiers for example. I was an athlete and wanted to join the military for a time. Now that culture, a certain agression, and quite frankly testosterone, is necessary just to do the function of your job. However with that generally comes a certain amount of stress relief (drinking, fornication, partying, etc) which imo is presnet just to maintain emotional balance. God certainly doesnt want that, however I wonder if God would find that more excusable due to circumstance. Or medicine for example, physicians are often opinionated and probably prideful. However they also deal with some of the most difficult decisions with major responsibilites that I can attest, wear on them. At some point we need them.

Edit: Cheezy I think I am about where you are tbh.
 
Servant31 said:
Yes I agree about the knowledge and consent part. However my point derives more from circumstance. Say soldiers for example. I was an athlete and wanted to join the military for a time. Now that culture, a certain agression, and quite frankly testosterone, is necessary just to do the function of your job. However with that generally comes a certain amount of stress relief (drinking, fornication, partying, etc) which imo is presnet just to maintain emotional balance. God certainly doesnt want that, however I wonder if God would find that more excusable due to circumstance. Or medicine for example, physicians are often opinionated and probably prideful. However they also deal with some of the most difficult decisions with major responsibilites that I can attest, wear on them. At some point we need them.

Edit: Cheezy I think I am about where you are tbh.
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Well, here’s an extreme example.
Jesus isn’t fond of divorce. But wouldn’t He understand if, to a woman, it is the only apparent answer to ending the fact that her husband is beating her to within an inch of life?
And yes. I did something less than great not all too long ago, but no one can understand the reasons but Him and me. I am sure He didn’t like it, neither did I, but I believe He also understands my heart and why it happened. He also led me to believe that yes, you did it, move on and do not do it again. I believe He said that to someone else, also…
 
KendraDZ1902,

Thanks for your reply. That is what we were taught. One strike and you are out. If a youngster masturbates once and dies without being forgiven, no matter what good he does, he ends up in hell for all eternity.

He will hear “depart from me you cursed”. It is hard to see that God is good.
 
meltzerboy said:
Thank you for your response. And if they cannot make an act of perfect contrition even though they desire to, because they die beforehand or are incapacitated, does that mean they go to hell?
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We leave it to the mercy of God who will know if there was a real desire to repent.

There is also the last rites for those near death, even those unconscious or otherwise incapacitated that they cannot speak.
 
thistle said:
We leave it to the mercy of God who will know if there was a real desire to repent.

There is also the last rites for those near death, even those unconscious or otherwise incapacitated that they cannot speak.
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So I am curious; what is said at the last rite that enables the dying spiritually?
My Dad made it through several and is still with us.
 
Servant, you said,
“No one wants to end up in hell, but by segragating yourself comepletely isnt that a form of hell?”

I would say that we do live in a crooked cancerous world and to a great extent we should be different. For Jesus said for us to be in the world but not of the world. And to be different means we will suffer the consequences for being different. The seed must die before it can come to life.

But this has it’s compensations. “My peace I leave you…” said Jesus. Following his instructions we are confident about our future with him, and have that security which enables us to know everything will be ok. And we have one another, for we are related in Jesus.
 
Don’t think about it. I stopped trying to figure it out. Just hope in God and do your best.
 
NoelFitz said:
Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?
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Even unconditional love can be rejected. Existence is an denial good in and of itself so God is not compelled by justice to annihilate anyone. And free will is another good that God is not constrained to deny us just because we may use it unwisely/unjustly. So hell is the free rejection of love, because hell is the absence of God, who is love.
 
Thanks for all the sincere heartfelt replies.

The God understood by some seems cruel, who says “You have free will, you made the wrong choice, it has nothing to do with me. I could interfere, being almighty, but I will not.”

We are all sinners, it is heresy to deny this. We choose sins because they seem good, not because we reject God, Sins appear to be good at the time (sub specie boni).

I will reply to the first 20 posts.

#20 Padre Pio implies we should not worry about our salvation. Luther said we are saints and sinners. This is a Protestant reply that we are saved by faith.
#19 Off topic.
#18 Perfect contrition is almost impossible for sinners, as it means loving God for his own sake not to avoid punishment.
#17 In a race one wins, the rest lose.
#16= 15 I see others share my concerns. Thanks.
#14 Your post is off-topic, not ad rem.
#13 I agree with you. There seems no answer. he pot cannot control the potter.
#12 Not central to the debate.
#11 You pose a good question.
#10 Not relevant to the main debate
#9 We are not invited to love God we are ordered.
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength (NRSV Deu 6:4,5).
#8 Again we are on our own. God will not interfere.
#7 Again, the choice is ours God stands back.
#6 Parents love their children. The good parent never rejects children.
#5 You say it as it is, God will not interfere with our choice.
#4 I am not telling God I do not want him when I sin. I just choose what seems good to me at the time. “The evil that I would not, that I do”.
#3This post caused much interest, but is not central to the debate.
#2 Yes you are correct, as unforgiven mortal sin means hell for all time.
#1 Original query.
 
NoelFitz said:
Thanks for all the sincere heartfelt replies.

The God understood by some seems cruel, who says “You have free will, you made the wrong choice, it has nothing to do with me. I could interfere, being almighty, but I will not.”

We are all sinners, it is heresy to deny this. We choose sins because they seem good, not because we reject God, Sins appear to be good at the time (sub specie boni).

I will reply to the first 20 posts.

#20 Padre Pio implies we should not worry about our salvation. Luther said we are saints and sinners. This is a Protestant reply that we are saved by faith.
#19 Off topic.
#18 Perfect contrition is almost impossible for sinners, as it means loving God for his own sake not to avoid punishment.
#17 In a race one wins, the rest lose.
#16= 15 I see others share my concerns. Thanks.
#14 Your post is off-topic, not ad rem.
#13 I agree with you. There seems no answer. he pot cannot control the potter.
#12 Not central to the debate.
#11 You pose a good question.
#10 Not relevant to the main debate
#9 We are not invited to love God we are ordered.
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength (NRSV Deu 6:4,5).
#8 Again we are on our own. God will not interfere.
#7 Again, the choice is ours God stands back.
#6 Parents love their children. The good parent never rejects children.
#5 You say it as it is, God will not interfere with our choice.
#4 I am not telling God I do not want him when I sin. I just choose what seems good to me at the time. “The evil that I would not, that I do”.
#3This post caused much interest, but is not central to the debate.
#2 Yes you are correct, as unforgiven mortal sin means hell for all time.
#1 Original query.
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We sin because it seems good? Rarely. Would anyone really conclude, after mature adult deliberation, that the good of their marriage consists in cheating on their spouse? That the good of their health consists in ingesting so much junk food that they become too fat to walk properly? That their good consists in getting wasted on alcohol and drugs on a regular basis? In refusing to look for work when well capable of doing so? Or skipping college lectures and flunking when well able to attend and pass?

Of course not. They do these things because they crave the sensory pleasure and/or adrenaline rush of doing something illicit that the sex, food and drugs provide. Or they choose the easiest option as represented by the dodging work and study.

They basically ignore any question of what is good for them or those around them in the true sense of the word.

God is teaching us that we can, and should, be more reflective and disciplined and allow our actions to be dictated by higher motives than laziness or bodily cravings.

Having said that, I would add that He is unlikely to find fault with anyone who is in a genuine moral dilemma but sincerely, after as much reflection as possible, does what they truly think best rather than what is easiest or most convenient for them.
 
NoelFitz said:
Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?
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God is love, infinitely compassionate, knowing the why of our every action

whatever you believe, the aim is to be with Him

whatever my destiny, all i can do is to do His will as best I can
 
thistle said:
That’s because you have, through your own free will, committed a mortal sin and dying unrepentant choose to go to Hell. God gave us free will and the choices are ours. He loves us and will not interfere with the free will he gave us. YOU can choose to accept or reject his love (which is what committing a mortal sin means). He never rejects us. Only we can abandon him.
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so basically, you’re saying that no one will go to hell unless they want to and that makes sense to me.
 
NoelFitz said:
Thanks for all the sincere heartfelt replies.

The God understood by some seems cruel, who says “You have free will, you made the wrong choice, it has nothing to do with me. I could interfere, being almighty, but I will not.”

We are all sinners, it is heresy to deny this. We choose sins because they seem good, not because we reject God, Sins appear to be good at the time (sub specie boni).

I will reply to the first 20 posts.

#20 Padre Pio implies we should not worry about our salvation. Luther said we are saints and sinners. This is a Protestant reply that we are saved by faith.
#19 Off topic.
#18 Perfect contrition is almost impossible for sinners, as it means loving God for his own sake not to avoid punishment.
#17 In a race one wins, the rest lose.
#16= 15 I see others share my concerns. Thanks.
#14 Your post is off-topic, not ad rem.
#13 I agree with you. There seems no answer. he pot cannot control the potter.
#12 Not central to the debate.
#11 You pose a good question.
#10 Not relevant to the main debate
#9 We are not invited to love God we are ordered.
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength (NRSV Deu 6:4,5).
#8 Again we are on our own. God will not interfere.
#7 Again, the choice is ours God stands back.
#6 Parents love their children. The good parent never rejects children.
#5 You say it as it is, God will not interfere with our choice.
#4 I am not telling God I do not want him when I sin. I just choose what seems good to me at the time. “The evil that I would not, that I do”.
#3This post caused much interest, but is not central to the debate.
#2 Yes you are correct, as unforgiven mortal sin means hell for all time.
#1 Original query.
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hmm…if one of mine is in that group, thanks for your imput.
 
#6 Parents love their children. The good parent never rejects children.
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Exactly so. And neither does God reject any one of us. My point was simply that entering heaven or hell is a voluntary act. If a child has rejected a parent and refuses to enter the home, the parent, if he were powerful enough, might drag him by force into his home. But the child would not be happy there because he hates the parent and the people there.

And if God were to drag someone who rejects him into heaven, he would not be happy there. It would just be hell to him.
 
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