Unconditional love, hell

[paul_c]

Jesus chose to suffer. He had a choice, He did not have to suffer. So his love is true.

this is true.

We don’t have a choice. We are required to suffer. So how can we love like Jesus when we don’t have a choice?

Yes, alas, we do live in a valley of tears and every one is tested in one way or another. Ironically, its often the ones who are tested with success (actors, sports stars, the rich) who fail life’s tests the worst.

And on top of that: How is it loving for God to require us to suffer? If I love someone I don’t want to hurt them, nor do I want them to suffer. I’m an imperfect being and even I know this is true. God is perfect, and doesn’t believe this simple to understand belief.

Some suffering is of our own doing, but some is not and that’s hard to accept at times. But that is part of our test. We need to accept the good with the bad. We all get some of both, not always in equal measure. But remember, God grades on a curve. Those to whom much is given, much will be expected. and also remember the beatitudes, those who suffer will be comforted…

God should have created us perfect in the first place. That way we would not be required to suffer.

God did make us perfect for the job he assigned to us. He struck St. Paul with an infirmity deliberately to make him weak so that God’s power would shine more fully through him. Your cross, whatever it is, has a purpose. You may be able with some contemplation, figure out what it is. You may not. It may be for your own good, or it may be to generate love in those around you (making you an instrument of his love). I know you didn’t ask for it, but if you bear up under it, you will be rewarded.

Because people are created imperfect, this happens. It is a bug in the software which was put there by the original author. If God created us perfect this would never happen.

Again, God made you perfectly for your assigned task

Without giving the person the ability to accomplish those high standards it is nothing but a recipe for disaster.

If God wants us to be able to accomplish high standards, he should have created us perfect.

“I want you to run a marathon, but I created you with MS and you’re in a wheelchair.”

Very funny Boss!

This is what happens when someone has a cross which is too heavy for them. It is a recipe for disaster.

You clearly are struggling and I fear I am not helping you. I too have struggles and have been debilitated for a month so I understand what it can be like to struggle through each day. Just do your best and try to put others first in anyway you can. The most respected of people are not those that have everything, but those who rise above their disadvantages. God bless and good luck. I will pray for you to get some relief in your burdens.

 

[cheezey]

I had a another repsonse initially; perhaps later.

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this is true.

Yes, alas, we do live in a valley of tears and every one is tested in one way or another. Ironically, its often the ones who are tested with success (actors, sports stars, the rich) who fail life’s tests the worst.

Some suffering is of our own doing, but some is not and that’s hard to accept at times. But that is part of our test. We need to accept the good with the bad. We all get some of both, not always in equal measure. But remember, God grades on a curve. Those to whom much is given, much will be expected. and also remember the beatitudes, those who suffer will be comforted…

God did make us perfect for the job he assigned to us. He struck St. Paul with an infirmity deliberately to make him weak so that God’s power would shine more fully through him. Your cross, whatever it is, has a purpose. You may be able with some contemplation, figure out what it is. You may not. It may be for your own good, or it may be to generate love in those around you (making you an instrument of his love). I know you didn’t ask for it, but if you bear up under it, you will be rewarded.

Again, God made you perfectly for your assigned task

And perhaps we struggle to know just what that task is.

You are clearly are struggling and I fear I am not helping you. I too have struggles and have been debilitated for a month so I understand what it can be like to struggle through each day. Just do your best and try to put others first in anyway you can. The most respected of people are not those that have everything, but those who rise above their disadvantages. God bless and good luck. I will pray for you to get some relief in your burdens.

This states my unspoken response far more eloquently than I could have.
Thank you Paul.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?

One can go their whole life walking on roofs and be fine and uninjured. But all it takes is one wrong step off that roof that can kill you.

That is why Jesus stresses always be ready and not to let death catch us off guard.

 

[BobCatholic]

and also remember the beatitudes, those who suffer will be comforted.

Not here. Only in the afterlife.

Again, God made you perfectly for your assigned task

I find that hard to believe. I was called to be a husband and father. Thy will be done. Part of this calling is having am ability to keep a job, which I do not have. Married 8 years, last 11 years my job history is bad at best. So here I have a situation in my life, which is not evil, I’m not doing evil here, and I’m not being provided with a means to earn a living.

 

[BobCatholic]

This is not a true statement. This is an opnion of yours and it is false. If you truly wanted to be with God, you would respect the CONSEQUENCES of your actions and you would eliminate your evil; you would not demand that God permit you to escape consequences and indeed to continue sinning eternally as a condition of YOUR love.

I go to confession regularly, sometimes I’m going multiple times a week. If I’m doing evil, I’m unconscious of it. Doesn’t mean I’m perfect, I know I’m not.

It must be I cannot suffer with a smile on my face. It must be a sin.

This is my imperfection, I was created this way.

I’m not a hedonist, I don’t seek pleasure, but I am running away from pain. I hate pain. I’ve had too much of it in life, and worry the rest of my life will be worse.

We are created perfectly, but due to Adam and Eve, we have a ‘tendency’ to sin. This in no way FORCES us to sin or makes us ‘bound’ to sin, so we DO have full free will.

We are most DEFINITELY not created perfectly. Unless you are talking about being created innocent, then that is true. But perfect? No way. Nobody’s perfect. Except our Lord and Lady. Mommy is humanity’s solitary boast, and only because God made her perfect.

Tell that to the many who have competed in wheelchairs.

You missed the part where I said “RUNNING the NYC Marathon” Those in wheelchairs cannot run.

And naturally God hasn’t EVER considered any of this and He judges every single person based on a putative ‘perfect circumstances of life’ situation.

Not when it comes to temporal things.

When it comes to the spiritual, God’s mercy is infinite. God is infinitely generous! I can’t say ANYTHING bad about God, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to say anything bad about God when it comes to the spiritual.

The temporal? Well…he places us in an unforgiving environment, in a place where everything is scarce (like jobs!!!) His mercy is less than infinite here and so is his generosity.

God is like this infinitely rich man who says “when you cross the bridge of death, I’m going to give you a hundred trillion dollars. But right now you got this $10 debt to pay and I’m not helping you with that. This is your cross.” (in an economy where you’re lucky to find a penny a day)

No He doesn’t. YOU keep saying it.

No, God says it.

You must carry your cross. Matthew 16:24
Yes, you must carry your cross. Mark 8:34
Yes, you must carry your cross. Luke 9:23
This means you will be required to suffer. John 15:20
Not just suffer, but REQUIRED to suffer with joy. 1 Peter 4:13
If you do not do this, Christ does not want you. Matthew 10:38

AND THE SAME FREE GIFT OF SALVATION THEY HAD IN CHRIST

Which is a spiritual thing which God totally rocks.

HOWEVER, when it comes to the temporal, all bets are off.

and all of this suffering is because of a lack which Jesus did not suffer for to save us from (Colossians 1:24) and our bodies have not been redeemed yet. (Romans 8:18-27)

Remember, punishment is love. (Hebrews 12:6)

Don’t shut Him out., You’re speaking for Him I(and wrongly), Let Him speak to you and LISTEN TO HIM instead of to yourself.

He doesn’t want to talk to me. I ask him what his will is so I can do it. He won’t tell me. So I can’t do it. So I don’t do it. He punishes me temporally. I ask him what his will is so I can do it. I’m stuck in a vicious circle and God doesn’t want to help me.

I am not shutting him out, he shut me out.

News flash, IT STILL HURTS and I never said you would not HAVE anesthesia.

If God gave us anesthesia, there would be no suffering.

You keep leaving things out and speaking for God. .

God said so in the scriptures.

yes you would but you’d accept the need and cease the wailing.

That’s why he punishes me, I’m not a masochist. I hate suffering. I don’t suffer well. I am horrible at suffering.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Bob, you seem far more interested in presenting and justifying your anger and blaming God for it, than in understanding the reasons behind and the philosophy of pain. Rather than keep reiterating your opinions as ‘truth’, why not consider at least one ‘alternative’ (it doesn’t have to be from any of my posts, even, there are plenty of others giving you good advice), and asking yourself, “If I’m wrong on this point, and this other person is right, what does that mean to my whole understanding of God, and what might I want to change?”

Just one thing. See what happens. Give it time.

 

[paul_c]

Not here. Only in the afterlife.

Maybe, that’s what Mary said to st. Bernadette in Lourdes, but not necessarily. Sometimes things look the bleakest right before they get better. Keep the faith

I find that hard to believe. I was called to be a husband and father. Thy will be done. Part of this calling is having am ability to keep a job, which I do not have. Married 8 years, last 11 years my job history is bad at best. So here I have a situation in my life, which is not evil, I’m not doing evil here, and I’m not being provided with a means to earn a living.
I’m very sorry to hear that and I wish I could do something for you but I have no job to give. Its hard to break out of that to be sure. I know venting sometimes helps so have at it. But don’t give up hope…I’m sure its incredibly frustrating not knowing God’s plan for you but please trust in God. Somehow things will work out (and it will undoubtedly be in his time, not yours. And every day, try to count your blessings. They are alwasy there, even in the worst of situations. I always like to think that even during the stations of the cross, Jesus meets his Mother, Simon helps him with the cross, Veronica cleans his face, and the women of Jerusalem sympathize with him. Focus on the good, it will help get through the bad.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks to all subscribers. We have had over 65 replies. I have considered thirty, now I will answer more, even though some are off-topic.

The basic query was:
“Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?”

We think in terms of our faith, but we can only know God by analogy. So while holding God is the absolute Good, we try to see how is he good in our terms, does be behave as a good human person would? This anthropomorphism is necessary.

I note from the CCC:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good.
293 God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness.

Also from Ott
“God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others (De fide)”.

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#31 Our future may be n hell, not heaven.

32 We should consider hell, to ignore it is wrong.​

#33 So you say we choose hell, while God looks idly on with indifference and powerlessness.

#34 My post.

#35 You deny St Thomas . Cardinal Pell has written " St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out nearly 800 years ago that we seek evil “sub specie boni”, attracted by the appearance of something good".

#36 Off topic

#37 Off topic

#38 You seem to say we choose hell and God is not involved.

#39 Does not add to the debate.

#40 Again here is a claim that God is not powerful and our will trumps his.

 

[Aloysium]

We think in terms of our faith, but we can only know God by analogy.

Not really.
That is the only way to speak of that which is too real for words, whose existence lies in the mystery of things; He who is beyond creation.
The way one truly knows Him imho is in one’s heart.
In every person one meets, there is the divine, there is Christ; you either see it or you don’t. No analogies.

So while holding God is the absolute Good, we try to see how is he good in our terms, does be behave as a good human person would?

Not really.
Have you read the end of Job? His word is creation - totally beyond any comparison to me.
It’s actually embarrassing to consider what appears to be a judgement of Him.

This anthropomorphism is necessary.

Not really.
One anthropomorphizes the Supreme Identity, That from which personhood is possible? You are seriously considering this?

 

[BobCatholic]

Maybe, that’s what Mary said to st. Bernadette in Lourdes, but not necessarily. Sometimes things look the bleakest right before they get better. Keep the faith

I’ll keep the faith, I just won’t believe in the health and wealth gospel many are preaching.

I’m very sorry to hear that and I wish I could do something for you but I have no job to give. Its hard to break out of that to be sure. I know venting sometimes helps so have at it. But don’t give up hope…I’m sure its incredibly frustrating not knowing God’s plan for you but please trust in God.

Hard to trust God after 11 years of failure to provide a steady job.

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob, you seem far more interested in presenting and justifying your anger and blaming God for it, than in understanding the reasons behind and the philosophy of pain. Rather than keep reiterating your opinions as ‘truth’, why not consider at least one ‘alternative’ (it doesn’t have to be from any of my posts, even, there are plenty of others giving you good advice), and asking yourself, “If I’m wrong on this point, and this other person is right, what does that mean to my whole understanding of God, and what might I want to change?”

Just one thing. See what happens. Give it time.

There’s only one problem: My experience says one thing and people tell me another. My experience has more weight. And so does my cross.

“God will provide!” After 11 years of failure to provide a steady job? How long am I supposed to wait?

I do understand, for the most part, the philosophy of pain. It is the unexplained parts that I don’t understand. Why call me to be a husband and father if you’re not going to provide a steady job for me as well? This is like calling someone to be a cook without providing the cooking utensils.

OK, Lord, fine, don’t provide me with a steady job. Give me some rich relative leaving me millions in their will. Give me some rocking stock tips. Or another way to obtain a ton of money legitimately so I don’t have to worry about getting a steady job.

Nope. No alternative there.

What I really need is someone who is like Padre Pio (mystic) type to read my soul and tell me why God doesn’t want to provide.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

The reason I said in my post not to think about it is not because we should ignore Hell, but rather we should not attempt to discover why it exists. We will never be able to fully reconcile it in our state.

For instance, if God desires that all should be saved, why, then, is concupiscense a remaining factor after baptism? Even if I pray and desire with all of my conscious intellect and whatever part of my will I have control over, concupiscence will remain. Even if I frequent the Sacraments, pray, read Scripture, and participate in the Catholic community, my inexplicable internal desire for sin remains, and causes me to sin, often mortally so. Thus, despite all my effort and conscious desire to remain in God’s grace, I, and many others, are often unable. If we were to die, regardless of our effort to remain with God or our intellectual and conscious desire, we would likely go to Hell. The deck is fundamentally stacked against mankind because of our slavery to sin. And if I were to go to Hell, it would simply be stated that I ‘didn’t love God enough’, despite my effort and use of the sacraments, prayer, scripture, and involvement in the community/evangelization. In other words, God’s standards are extraordinarily high, and even children who wish to come back to Him don’t always seem to be capable of keeping the standards of His sometimes seemingly brutal love.

This is why I said to not attempt to reason the existence of Hell and unconditional love. The more I try, and the more I read opinions of the overwhelming portion of saints (especially in the Early Church), the more I despair at the impossibility of God’s standards. I feel that most others are in this position. To constantly dwell on Hell and try to reconcile it with mercy and love seems to be beyond our fallen states.

To those who read this, please don’t despair at the concept of Hell. Just do your best, and trust in God. There is no sense dwelling on Hell. It does nothing, and worry and fear will not make us saints. God’s mercy comes before His justice.

 

[cheezey]

To those who read this, please don’t despair at the concept of Hell. Just do your best, and trust in God. There is no sense dwelling on Hell. It does nothing, and worry and fear will not make us saints. God’s mercy comes before His justice.

thank you. while worrying about such things we are often not doing the right things…

 

[Margy1948]

KendraDZ1902,

Thanks for your reply. That is what we were taught. One strike and you are out. If a youngster masturbates once and dies without being forgiven, no matter what good he does, he ends up in hell for all eternity.

He will hear “depart from me you cursed”. It is hard to see that God is good.

That’s a ridiculous assumption! Who told you that!?

 

[BobCatholic]

KendraDZ1902,

Thanks for your reply. That is what we were taught. One strike and you are out. If a youngster masturbates once and dies without being forgiven, no matter what good he does, he ends up in hell for all eternity.

He will hear “depart from me you cursed”. It is hard to see that God is good.

What stopped him from asking for forgiveness?

 

[Margy1948]

There’s only one problem: My experience says one thing and people tell me another. My experience has more weight. And so does my cross.

“God will provide!” After 11 years of failure to provide a steady job? How long am I supposed to wait?

I do understand, for the most part, the philosophy of pain. It is the unexplained parts that I don’t understand. Why call me to be a husband and father if you’re not going to provide a steady job for me as well? This is like calling someone to be a cook without providing the cooking utensils.

OK, Lord, fine, don’t provide me with a steady job. Give me some rich relative leaving me millions in their will. Give me some rocking stock tips. Or another way to obtain a ton of money legitimately so I don’t have to worry about getting a steady job.

Nope. No alternative there.

What I really need is someone who is like Padre Pio (mystic) type to read my soul and tell me why God doesn’t want to provide.

Unemployment is devastating to the soul, even if you’re subsidized by UI benefits.
Your feelings are quite normal, I’m sure God is used to his creatures being mad at him and you’re not hurting anyone by blaming him, so go right ahead.
And another thing, why do some people get to be born rich like the Kennedys and the Bush family? So if they don’t have a job there’s no worry…they should be doing a lot of public service. You’ve got a reasonable gripe, my friend!

 

[cheezey]

Unemployment is devastating to the soul, even if you’re subsidized by UI benefits.
Your feelings are quite normal, I’m sure God is used to his creatures being mad at him and you’re not hurting anyone by blaming him, so go right ahead.
And another thing, why do some people get to be born rich like the Kennedys and the Bush family? So if they don’t have a job there’s no worry…they should be doing a lot of public service. You’ve got a reasonable gripe, my friend!

You do. Really…
with blessings and prayers.

 

[jochoa]

Is God’s love unconditional? If one commits one mortal sin and dies without forgiveness one is condemned to the pains of hell for all eternity, where God will keep us alive only to suffer. How can God’s love for us allow this pain without hope of relief?

Excellent questions!

God’s Love is definitely unconditional!

God’s love can allow this pain without hope of relief because God knows:

1. He has done everything He can do to show the one the way to experience eternal joy with no pains. (Freely Embracing the Cross - freely wanting to be and being perfectly patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty, through the Sacraments of His one holy catholic and apostolic Church)
2. The one does not want to follow the rules to experience eternal joy with no pains for all. S/he does not want to be patient and kind equally towards others and the self.

The question that is necessary to answer in order to understand how God’s love is unconditional in this scenario is: Why did the one not ask for forgiveness?

 

[cheezey]

Excellent questions!

God’s Love is definitely unconditional!

God’s love can allow this pain without hope of relief because God knows:

1. He has done everything He can do to show the one the way to experience eternal joy with no pains. (Freely Embracing the Cross - freely wanting to be and being perfectly patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty, through the Sacraments of His one holy catholic and apostolic Church)
2. The one does not want to follow the rules to experience eternal joy with no pains for all. S/he does not want to be patient and kind equally towards others and the self.

The question that is necessary to answer in order to understand how God’s love is unconditional in this scenario is: Why did the one not ask for forgiveness?

I think my question is, when does the cross become so heavy that even God would not want it for us? I ask for forgiveness every day, every time I pray. Sometimes, my prayers are nothing but asking for forgiveness. But I do not expect things to get better for having asked. I really don’t; it seems like a different subject completely. And I am just one teeny tiny thread away from falling irrevocably apart for the burden. I firmly believe He does not want this for me. He will make good use of this, that’s for sure. And I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is telling me something that is SO far beyond me. I am in no way above bearing this cross. But I do feel woefully unable to bear it. And I ask forgiveness for that first and foremost…

 

[Aloysium]

I think my question is, when does the cross become so heavy that even God would not want it for us? I ask for forgiveness every day, every time I pray. Sometimes, my prayers are nothing but asking for forgiveness. But I do not expect things to get better for having asked. I really don’t; it seems like a different subject completely. And I am just one teeny tiny thread away from falling irrevocably apart for the burden. I firmly believe He does not want this for me. He will make good use of this, that’s for sure. And I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is telling me something that is SO far beyond me. I am in no way above bearing this cross. But I do feel woefully unable to bear it. And I ask forgiveness for that first and foremost…

you may be asking for forgiveness for things that are beyond your control
esp. if you are living with a medical problem and perhaps an absence of support
i have had more than my share of suffering and have met many who had to endure much more
He does not want this for any of us
He is with us every step of the way
even Jesus needed help carrying His cross, you can only do what you can
God bless you