Think of it this way.Do you really think/believe that since you can not conceive or think of a way that God could bring this about without “forcing”, so to speak, that God can not?
First off, I would like to say that this story does not necessarily have to be totally word for word literal for me to find it meaningful.Let me suggest this question: When God told Adam not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, did He *want *Adam to eat of it? Does God cause His will to necessarily be done?
This is contrary to both Scripture and church teaching. Scripture records that we are to become holy as our father in heaven is holy. The teachings of the Church indicate the that though we are wounded, we are created good.{snip}As far as “humanity growing”, I, for one, do not think/believe for a second that humanity will ever grow “good”, so to speak, but it is not about that, it is about God caring for ALL of God’s creation which includes all of humanity.
As far as “Violating free will is not in God’s nature because he is love, and love never forces.”, if God violated free will than it would not be free will at all, it would only be “free will up to a point” and free will up to a point is no free will at all.Think of it this way.
God is love, this is how he reveals himself to us.
Violating free will is not in God’s nature because he is love, and love never forces. So even though he is omnipotent, you could say that he “can’t” force.
Maybe a better way to say is, forcing is not in his nature, so it’s not even a consideration.
And it shouldn’t be for us either.
Is that right?This is contrary to both Scripture and church teaching. Scripture records that we are to become holy as our father in heaven is holy. The teachings of the Church indicate the that though we are wounded, we are created good.
Thank you for an interesting thread about a valid question.The replies in the past ten or so posts haven’t even come close to answering my original question. It has veered too far off course.
I’d like to thank everyone for their replies. Some were good, some not so good and some were very thought provoking.
God bless you all for your kindness in attempting to answer a question that still perplexes me.
Glenda
And a relevant question here would be to ask, 'Did God quit loving Adam after his sin?Thank you for an interesting thread about a valid question.
Perhaps there will be another time when we can discuss the primary “condition” which is the maintenance of humanity’s relationship with Divinity. In my humble opinion, getting down to basic foundational Catholic teachings can clarify some, not all, of the difficulties of the word “unconditional.”
From post 83.
“We need to examine the original condition which was needed in order to maintain Adam’s relationship with his Creator. We need to recognize the truth that the only way that Adam, and ourselves, can maintain a relationship with God is that Adam, and ourselves, need to live in free submission to God. (CCC, 396; CCC, 1730-1732)
There cannot be two Gods.”
Yes. You can check the Bible and the Catechism to verify this.Is that right?
God did say that it was/is good but than again God does have a Plan so that is why it is good in God’s Eyes because God’s Plan is Good for ALL.
Does not matter. What people believe or want does not determine what is true.How many believe this? How many even want this?
No. Without salvation, growing in holiness is impossible.Do you think that man will grow so good that man will outgrow man’s need for salvation?
No. I believe you misinterpreted my answer.Do you think that where is says, “All have sinned and fell short of the glory of God” or something to the effect, has been deleted.
As far as “Scripture records that we are to become holy as our father in heaven is holy”, do you think that humanity has or will do this as a whole this side of the grave\quote]
For most no. For a few of the canonized saints, yes.
By the way, there is a lot written in the bible and I “know” that I don’t know what all of it means and I also know that I don’t need to be a know-it-all but I trust and believe that God has all of the bases covered so that we will ALL make it home.
Not here. Too soon. We need to lay out the “conditions” for God’s unconditional love. What makes Adam lovable?And a relevant question here would be to ask, 'Did God quit loving Adam after his sin?
Granny,Not here. Too soon. We need to lay out the “conditions” for God’s unconditional love. What makes Adam lovable?
How can we ask if God quit loving Adam without first explaining the relationship conditions between a Creator and His human creature? How do we know that Adam the creature received God’s spiritual love? What are the conditions for Adam to return love, that is, what is the manner or way for Adam to return love to God? Especially since Adam is not a god. And we should not confuse love with injustice or with the abuse of freedom.
The Catholic teachings which pertain to the above are CCC, 396; CCC,1730-1732; and especially CCC, 356.
Please note: It is not necessary to answer the above questions. These questions are meant to expand the horizons for learning. Hopefully, they will lead to an understanding of the Creator’s divine nature and the creature’s human nature…and a better understanding of “condition.”
Yes, submission (obedience) to God is a condition for maintaining humanity’s relationship with Divinity. If a person wants to remain in the state of Sanctifying Grace, then there has to be obedience (submission) to God.
Finally, does a human person have the power to remove the condition of obedience from humanity’s relationship with Divinity?
What say you?
No, it could be said that man was given the freedom to disobey, but certainly not the right to do so. Without this condition the relationship is damaged or destroyed, no longer in accord with right order.Not here. Too soon. We need to lay out the “conditions” for God’s unconditional love. What makes Adam lovable?
How can we ask if God quit loving Adam without first explaining the relationship conditions between a Creator and His human creature? How do we know that Adam the creature received God’s spiritual love? What are the conditions for Adam to return love, that is, what is the manner or way for Adam to return love to God? Especially since Adam is not a god. And we should not confuse love with injustice or with the abuse of freedom.
The Catholic teachings which pertain to the above are CCC, 396; CCC,1730-1732; and especially CCC, 356.
Please note: It is not necessary to answer the above questions. These questions are meant to expand the horizons for learning. Hopefully, they will lead to an understanding of the Creator’s divine nature and the creature’s human nature…and a better understanding of “condition.”
Yes, submission (obedience) to God is a condition for maintaining humanity’s relationship with Divinity. If a person wants to remain in the state of Sanctifying Grace, then there has to be obedience (submission) to God.
Finally, does a human person have the power to remove the condition of obedience from humanity’s relationship with Divinity?
What say you?
Very good questions. You’re thinking.Not here. Too soon. We need to lay out the “conditions” for God’s unconditional love. What makes Adam lovable?
How can we ask if God quit loving Adam without first explaining the relationship conditions between a Creator and His human creature? How do we know that Adam the creature received God’s spiritual love? What are the conditions for Adam to return love, that is, what is the manner or way for Adam to return love to God? Especially since Adam is not a god. And we should not confuse love with injustice or with the abuse of freedom.
The Catholic teachings which pertain to the above are CCC, 396; CCC,1730-1732; and especially CCC, 356.
Please note: It is not necessary to answer the above questions. These questions are meant to expand the horizons for learning. Hopefully, they will lead to an understanding of the Creator’s divine nature and the creature’s human nature…and a better understanding of “condition.”
Yes, submission (obedience) to God is a condition for maintaining humanity’s relationship with Divinity. If a person wants to remain in the state of Sanctifying Grace, then there has to be obedience (submission) to God.
Finally, does a human person have the power to remove the condition of obedience from humanity’s relationship with Divinity?
What say you?
But does a parent necessarily stop loving a child even if that child were to reject their love and never return home? In fact, it could be said that an aspect of the original sin of Adam was his failure to recognize and value the love of God, and that humankind’s making it’s way back to God involves coming to recognize and value that very thing; the Atonement being the supreme and definitive proof of a love that never deserved to be doubted much less spurned.F Hansen has asked if God stopped loving them after the fall. We cannot know this until we reach Heaven and see if our first parents are there, fully redeemed.
You are still confusing two different things.Hello Granny.
Very good questions. You’re thinking.
In particular I’ll draw your attention to your admission that “submission (obedience) to God is a condition for maintaining humanity’s relationship with Divinity. If a person wants to remain in the state of Sanctifying Grace, then there has to be obedience (submission) to God.” Very good. Adam and Eve’s fall is the demonstration of how serious a sin disobedience actually is. It had consequences that to this day effect mankind. There wouldn’t have been any fall if God hadn’t placed the conditions He did on them in Eden.
F Hansen has asked if God stopped loving them after the fall. We cannot know this until we reach Heaven and see if our first parents are there, fully redeemed.
Glenda
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
I answer your first question with a question: Is the any love in Hell? I’m sure you’d agree that more than one person went to Hell. I’m sure you agree that one definition of Hell is eternal separation from God who is love, therefore by reasoning we can posit that since there is no love in Hell, no God in Hell then yes, the persons there are no longer loved by God. We are also told by Scripture that there are people that God has forgotten. this means they are no longer in the mind of God, they in a sense no longer exist as we know it. Hell. It is a reality.But does a parent necessarily stop loving a child even if that child were to reject their love and never return home? In fact, it could be said that an aspect of the original sin of Adam was his failure to recognize and value the love of God, and that humankind’s making it’s way back to God involves coming to recognize and value that very thing; the Atonement being the supreme and definitive proof of a love that never deserved to be doubted much less spurned.