Unconditional love of God?

[Tom_Baum]

Googler

You wrote, “There was a time when they were saved, but Lucifer and Judas no longer have a choice - no longer have any faith, hope, or love.”

Are you God?

If you are not, than isn’t it up to God and not you concerning any and all of God’s creation?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes. You can check the Bible and the Catechism to verify this.

Does not matter. What people believe or want does not determine what is true.

No. Without salvation, growing in holiness is impossible.

No. I believe you misinterpreted my answer.

As far as “Scripture records that we are to become holy as our father in heaven is holy”, do you think that humanity has or will do this as a whole this side of the grave\quote]
For most no. For a few of the canonized saints, yes.

 

[clem456]

God’s infinite love does not destroy God’s infinite justice.

God’s unconditional love does not destroy personal responsibility.

Yes
We find our true meaning and identity only in the light of God’s love. Responsibility only makes sense when we accept that we are loved without merits or conditions, and respond to it. The heart of responsibility is to give an answer to something which merits an answer, which God’s love most certainly calls for.

 

[Tom_Baum]

glendab

You wrote, “For some reason you’ve confused the ends with the means. God died upon the Cross so that some might be saved.”

So you are flat out saying that Jesus is NOT the Saviour of the world, that Jesus is just a partial Saviour of the world, is that so?

Ever given any thought that God might just have cared about ALL of God’s creation and not just part of it?

You then wrote, “His salvific work continues till the end of time and the final judgment.”

How do you know that time ends?

You also wrote, “His death is the cost of sin.”

So are you saying that His death was inadequate to pay the whole “cost of sin”?

You also wrote, “What is wrong with God loving me, period end of sentence? Why must the word “unconditional” be added to the sentence?”

What is “wrong” with saying that God LOVES everyone?

By the way, where it says in the bible that God hates someone, that “hates” does not mean the everyday definition that we usually apply to “hate”, just as there are other words in the bible that the definitions of are not the ones that instantly jump to mind.

 

[Tom_Baum]

glendab

You wrote, “He never said “I love you unconditionally Israel, do anything you want and I’ll still love you so don’t you worry. You’re saved anyway!!!” Gobble-dee-gook. Why isn’t God’s love good enough?”

Actually, God did say something to the effect that you say that God did not say.

God said that even if they broke the Covenant, God would NOT, if I run across where it is written that God said this I will post it.

There are many who know the bible better than me and maybe one of those knows where this is written, right off the top of their heads.

 

[Tom_Baum]

glendab

You wrote, “To me to reject the Law is to reject God. Remember this God’s Law is Eternal. It cannot change.”

Do you realize that God’s Law Is God and that since God Is Love than that means that God’s Law is LOVE, it is that simple.

Jesus said something to the effect, “Love God, love others, this Is the LAW AND THE PROPHETS”.

 

[clem456]

Hello David -
What do you suppose the Ten Commandments are? Suggestions? Options? They are conditions (for us to follow, not God.). Adam and Eve were given conditions to live by in Eden. Rules. Laws. Conditions. It is obvious to me that to remove conditions, you remove the Law (not so, Christ fulfills the law, we don’t.) Unconditional = unlawful in the subconscious. It means more than just magnanimous or providential or beneficial or generous.

To me to reject the Law is to reject God**(true)**. Remember this God’s Law is Eternal (God’s love is eternal, Christ fulfills the law, he does not make the law God. The law is not God). It cannot change. That is why the Church stands guard over some things that we believe. To keep subtleties from sneaking in that would change the way people understand things.

God loves me. That is good enough for me. Wow. Why isn’t that good enough for you? Why does He have to do so “unconditionally?” (If God loves you and offers you salvation, why do you believe you can merit it, over top of his head, as it were? Do you believe you can perfectly follow the law and so merit your own salvation? If you don’t perfectly follow the conditions, what saves you?)

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

God’s infinite love does not destroy God’s infinite justice.

God’s unconditional love does not destroy personal responsibility.

And God’s Mercy seems very seldom thought about or it seems that way from what I see written on many posts.

Sad to say, but it seems that quite a few want God’s Justice, or what they consider God’s Justice to be, for others and God’s Mercy for themself.

God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are so intertwined as to be One.

 

[clem456]

glendab

You wrote, “For some reason you’ve confused the ends with the means. God died upon the Cross so that some might be saved.”

So you are flat out saying that Jesus is NOT the Saviour of the world, that Jesus is just a partial Saviour of the world, is that so?

This is an important thing. Christ’s redemptive action on the Cross is for everyone. The love he offers on the cross is unconditional and unmerited. Redemption is offered to every person of all times.
But not all attain salvation, because human beings have free will. That does not change who God is and what he does. To say otherwise is to place conditions on God who has no conditions. In effect we set ourselves up as God. He is un-changeable and un-moveable in his love and we need to respect who he is.

 

[clem456]

Who ever said the love of God was a reward for good behavior? Glenda

But this is the heart of what you are claiming.
You are claiming that God’s love for us is conditional to our good behavior in following the law. It is not. If it is, we are all dead in the law, because none of us can perfectly follow it. This is expressed many times in Scripture and the teaching of the Church. The law does not, cannot, save us through good behavior.

Our attainment of salvation is a different matter. Our free will comes into play in accepting the gift, to be united with God’s love.
Our responssibility is to respond to God’s love which is always there. Following the commandments is part of the response to that love.

 

[Tom_Baum]

This is an important thing. Christ’s redemptive action on the Cross is for everyone. The love he offers on the cross is unconditional and unmerited. Redemption is offered to every person of all times.
But not all attain salvation, because human beings have free will. That does not change who God is and what he does. To say otherwise is to place conditions on God who has no conditions. In effect we set ourselves up as God. He is un-changeable and un-moveable in his love and we need to respect who he is.

You have placed the condition on God that “not all attain salvation”, seeing that it says that it is God “who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”, could be that it means just what it says whether we like it or not.

Sad to say but there do seem to be those that do not want this to be.

Just as God-Incarnate taught us to pray, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”, maybe we should pray for “God’s Will”, even if we do not believe that it is possible.

 

[OneSheep]

First of all, I have just finished reading this whole thread, because this is a topic of great interest to me. Although we are in the Philosophy forum here, it seems to me that this is more of a spiritual topic.

The God that one knows is going to be no different than Who one projects Him to be. If I love people conditionally, then I will only know a God who loves conditionally. If I love unconditionally, then I will find unfathomable the idea that God only loves conditionally.

Hello David -
What do you suppose the Ten Commandments are? Suggestions? Options? They are conditions. Adam and Eve were given conditions to live by in Eden. Rules. Laws. Conditions. It is obvious to me that to remove conditions, you remove the Law. Unconditional = unlawful in the subconscious. It means more than just magnanimous or providential or beneficial or generous.

To me to reject the Law is to reject God. Remember this God’s Law is Eternal. It cannot change. That is why the Church stands guard over some things that we believe. To keep subtleties from sneaking in that would change the way people understand things.

God loves me. That is good enough for me. Wow. Why isn’t that good enough for you? Why does He have to do so "unconditionally?"Glenda

It appears to me that God as you know Him loves conditionally. How can I argue with that? I can say that I used to think that God loved me conditionally, and now I do not. This was my spiritual journey. Your journey may take you there, and it may not.

You make a very good case, Glenda, for a conditionally loving God. Don’t we all, at some point in our lives, believe such? When we are children, and we are called to listen to the “voice within”, what do we encounter? The voice within says, “This is good, this is bad” “If you do this, you are unacceptable, you are bad, lazy, selfish, etc.” The voice within says “If you do this, you are a good person, you are loveable, acceptable, worthy, deserving, etc.” Who is this voice? Well, to a child and to all of us to some degree, this is the voice of God. Actually, it is the voice of our God-given conscience, and this voice guides our behaviors as children. Without this voice, as you accurately point out Glenda, we have chaos. Our conscience loves us very conditionally.

Things change when we choose to love (including forgive) all people, regardless of what they have done. When we ignore the workings of our conscience and follow the commands of Jesus, we can find God underneath the conscience itself. And though our conscience loves only conditionally, and as such guides our behaviors, God loves unconditionally. However, this will never be comprehended by any individual until he or she takes the steps to love unconditionally. And who do we love with condition? Those who violate our rulebooks. These are the very people we are called to love the most, and we begin by forgiving them their offenses against us.

But waiiiit a minute. If we learn that God loves us unconditionally, then won’t there be chaos? Won’t there be people who murder because God loves them no matter what? My answer: Probably not. People will only truly know that God loves unconditionally once their empathy has developed to the point that they can truly understand the others’ point of view and forgive them. When a person murders, they had failed to forgive. So, while it is possible that a person who believes in an unconditionally loving God can still be blinded by resentment, it is more likely that such a person will be able to recognize their blindness as a symptom of the illusion of negativity, for with forgiveness we find that all people are beautiful creations of God.

So, to me it is natural that all children (and many people as adults) who believe in God equate the conscience with God, and the conscience “loves” conditionally. In this light, I think we can include all approaches in the broad spectrum of “Catholic”. So, Glenda, stay in communion with me, with the Church, I think there is plenty of room for all of us.

 

[clem456]

You have placed the condition on God that “not all attain salvation”, seeing that it says that it is God “who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”, could be that it means just what it says whether we like it or not.

Sad to say but there do seem to be those that do not want this to be.

Just as God-Incarnate taught us to pray, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”, maybe we should pray for “God’s Will”, even if we do not believe that it is possible.

God wills all to be united with him, to be saved. Human beings also have free wills. We use them to reject him.
God respects our free will.

 

[glendab]

Hello Onesheep. Thank you for taking the time to read the WHOLE thread.

First of all, I have just finished reading this whole thread, …The God that one knows is going to be no different than Who one projects Him to be. If I love people conditionally, then I will only know a God who loves conditionally. If I love unconditionally, then I will find unfathomable the idea that God only loves conditionally…It appears to me that God as you know Him loves conditionally. How can I argue with that? I can say that I used to think that God loved me conditionally, and now I do not…Don’t we all, at some point in our lives, believe such? When we are children, and we are called to listen to the “voice within”,…Without this voice,…we have chaos…When we ignore the workings of our conscience and follow the commands of Jesus,…our conscience loves only conditionally, and as such guides our behaviors, God loves unconditionally. However, this will never be comprehended by any individual until he or she takes the steps to love unconditionally… Won’t there be people who murder because God loves them no matter what? …So, to me it is natural that all children (and many people as adults) who believe in God equate the conscience with God, and the conscience “loves” conditionally. In this light, I think we can include all approaches in the broad spectrum of “Catholic”. So, Glenda, stay in communion with me, with the Church, I think there is plenty of room for all of us.

First let me say that God isn’t limited by what we imagine Him to be. Jesus Christ is the God I know and because I love Him, I want to know Him better. I know my knowledge is limited, so I study. I get to know Him better and so can love Him better.

Then you quickly limit the discussion to two parameters - conditional love in a negative sense, and unconditional love which seems better to you than conditional love. Obvious at first glance. But Love Being Who He is isn’t confined by argumentations either. So, can I ONLY know God better if I give up my “conditional love” and love “unconditionally?” Is that the limit you place not only on me, but also on God? I don’t want to. I think the love I have for God needs the guidance of the Church to not only form it correctly but to also guide it’s growth so I don’t become disordered in my love.

I’ve read Deus Caritas Est by Benedict XVI. He is very accurate in stating that most of us do need to look at the way in which we love God. Loving to him is an action. Charity is one expression of love. He is very clear about this. And I agree with him whole heartedly.

As for changing my beliefs about God based on feelings of love that somehow changed in my life that is silly not to mention fickle. I see moving away from the conditions God gives me to live by into a different state of mind that some how gives me an ability to love “unconditionally” as a loss of the sense of sin and would harm me spiritually. Perhaps you could accept the idea of me loving God deeply and passionately. Is there something wrong with God loving me as He does right now without any adverbs qualifying it? His love for me isn’t deficient. It needs no qualifier for it to be as it is - His love for me.

I do not listen to “inner voices.” My conscience needs the Church to form it, to tell me what is expected of me as a Christian. These are conditions by which I am lead to a properly ordered love of God which will naturally express itself in a Christian way. I will do the right thing because I’ve accepted the conditions I need to to be redeemed by Christ.

I don’t think it is a voice within that prevents chaos from ensuing. Perhaps you didn’t state that well and mean more than that. My thoughts do not effect my reality, but my attitude can effect how I relate to the world and others. I’ve had more than one “bad attitude” day in my life.
I do not think following Jesus means ignoring conscience. I don’t understand that notion at all.

I’d like to add a little story and ask you to keep in mind I am a convert and had to radically alter my thinking to become capable of believing. It is the story of Ezra the scribe and what happened to the people when he arrived at Jerusalem. They’d been living with a compromised Law and had polluted their worship with foreign elements. They’d even inter-married with the foreigners and had no clue. The were brought to a clearer understanding of their guilt by Ezra. It is very basic story. It shows it is possible for folks to be deceived into false or half-hearted worship of God. Those who gathered around to hear Ezra wept profusely. They were contrite and sorrowful over their sins and agreed to embrace the Law fully instead of by half measures. It is a story of conversion. It is worth reading.

I still feel no need to try and love in an “unconditional” way. I see things differently. My following the Commandments and accepting the Church’s guidance is my expression of my love for God. It is what He asks of us all. The love of God is this: that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

I hope this helps you understand my viewpoint better.

Glenda

 

[OneSheep]

So, can I ONLY know God better if I give up my “conditional love” and love “unconditionally?” Is that the limit you place not only on me, but also on God?

No, and good point. There is no limit to what we can learn about God and ourselves.

Perhaps you could accept the idea of me loving God deeply and passionately. Is there something wrong with God loving me as He does right now without any adverbs qualifying it? His love for me isn’t deficient. It needs no qualifier for it to be as it is - His love for me.

Nothing “wrong” with it at all. I think the reason why the word “unconditional” has become so important is that without the adverb, the conditions have been implied in so much of theology. In addition, the conditions are right there in our conscience. If I do something hurtful, my conscience beat me up. God doesn’t beat me, my conscience does. This action of the conscience is helpful when my empathy is undeveloped, but for the most part it is now an annoying artifact. I really don’t need to get down on myself when I mess up, but I still do, and then I go through the steps to forgive.

I do not think following Jesus means ignoring conscience. I don’t understand that notion at all.

When we forgive instead of casting stones, we are going against the action of our conscience. Our conscience says “wrong!” and seeks to control situations through condemnation and punishment. Jesus says the law is written in our hearts, that we are to use love as a guide. Empathy is key in this. The story of the prodigal son, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, the whole notion of “the last will be first” are all contrary to our normally formed consciences. Jesus calls us not to be slaves to our consciences.

I’d like to add a little story and ask you to keep in mind I am a convert and had to radically alter my thinking to become capable of believing. It is the story of Ezra the scribe and what happened to the people when he arrived at Jerusalem. They’d been living with a compromised Law and had polluted their worship with foreign elements. They’d even inter-married with the foreigners and had no clue. The were brought to a clearer understanding of their guilt by Ezra. It is very basic story. It shows it is possible for folks to be deceived into false or half-hearted worship of God. Those who gathered around to hear Ezra wept profusely. They were contrite and sorrowful over their sins and agreed to embrace the Law fully instead of by half measures. It is a story of conversion. It is worth reading.

I was only able to find a summary of the story in a quick internet search. His forcing people to leave their non-Jewish spouses was an action stemming from ingroup-outgroup thinking, as best I can understand. Identity was very important to the Jewish people, and intermarriage is a threat to that identity. I suppose it still is. Do you see the use of the word “unconditional” as a foreign element? Are you protecting Catholicism from a contaminant?

I still feel no need to try and love in an “unconditional” way. I see things differently. My following the Commandments and accepting the Church’s guidance is my expression of my love for God. It is what He asks of us all. The love of God is this: that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

I hope this helps you understand my viewpoint better.

Glenda

Your love is inspirational. Yes, we keep the commandments, and the commandment is to love. Ordinarily, we love those who we hold nothing against, that comes quite naturally. The challenge is to love those whom we hold something against, do you agree?

So, if I remember right, I think you said you were a parent. As a parent, it sounds like you will love your children as long as they keep your commandments. I am not trying to be provocative here, I am looking for clarification.

Oh, by the way, to me, perceiving that God loves conditionally is not a “negative”. It is understandable and natural. I was not “wrong” for seeing God that way, using “wrong” coupled with resentment. I was less aware concerning this aspect of God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God wills all to be united with him, to be saved. Human beings also have free wills. We use them to reject him.
God respects our free will.

Of course God respects our free will because if He didn’t we wouldn’t have free will.

I don’t believe that there is anything wrong with rooting for God’s Will and just because some may not believe that God “can pull it off”, so to speak, doesn’t mean that they know what they are talking about.

Seems as if you are pretty much saying what a lady said quite a while ago in a bible study I was in and that was “It’s only God’s Will”, can you see what I am trying to say?

In other words, you say “God wills all to be united with him, to be saved”, are you also saying that it will not come about?

 

[fhansen]

Of course God respects our free will because if He didn’t we wouldn’t have free will.

I don’t believe that there is anything wrong with rooting for God’s Will and just because some may not believe that God “can pull it off”, so to speak, doesn’t mean that they know what they are talking about.

Seems as if you are pretty much saying what a lady said quite a while ago in a bible study I was in and that was “It’s only God’s Will”, can you see what I am trying to say?

In other words, you say “God wills all to be united with him, to be saved”, are you also saying that it will not come about?

Both scripture and Catholic teaching tell us that not all will enter heaven, that some will remain in rebellion against God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Both scripture and Catholic teaching tell us that not all will enter heaven, that some will remain in rebellion against God.

There is much written in Scripture.

One of the things that is written in Scripture and seems quite to the point is, “First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.”

As I said, quite to the point even if not loaded with details about how this will come about except that it was God Himself, if one believes that Jesus Is God-Incarnate, Who “gave himself as ransom for all”.

Some believe this and are thankful for this even if they do not know exactly how this will unfold in God’s unfolding Plan and there also seem to be others who think/believe that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for only some.

Any comments concerning this bit of Scripture?

 

[fhansen]

There is much written in Scripture.

One of the things that is written in Scripture and seems quite to the point is, “First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.”

As I said, quite to the point even if not loaded with details about how this will come about except that it was God Himself, if one believes that Jesus Is God-Incarnate, Who “gave himself as ransom for all”.

Some believe this and are thankful for this even if they do not know exactly how this will unfold in God’s unfolding Plan and there also seem to be others who think/believe that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for only some.

Any comments concerning this bit of Scripture?

He gave Himself as a ransom for all but while all may be called not all will necessarily answer. If free will is not a “player” in the game, then why would God allow Adam to fall, considering all the pain and suffering that’s ensued in human history as a result?

 

[Tom_Baum]

He gave Himself as a ransom for all but while all may be called not all will necessarily answer. If free will is not a “player” in the game, then why would God allow Adam to fall, considering all the pain and suffering that’s ensued in human history as a result?

What are you talking about “If free will is not a “player” in the game”?

I have, most definitely, said that we have free will and that if we did not than we would be nothing more than puppets on a string,

I have also said that God “knew” who would and who would not “repent” this side of breath and that is why God has a Plan and has had a Plan since before creation, just because we might not be able to reconcile how God is going to “pull this off”, doesn’t mean that God can’t.

As far as “why would God allow Adam to fall”, God did not just allow Adam to fall, God knew that he would fall.

One could say that God could not stop Adam from falling and the reason that God could not stop Adam from falling was a Self-imposed limitation and that God still can not interfere with our free will during our breathing time for the simple reason that if free will were only free “up to a point” than it would not be free will at all.

Just because we don’t know exactly what God is capable of in our lives after our physical death doesn’t mean that God’s Plan is restricted only to our breathing time.

Hell, in the bible, is metaphorically spoken of as “Sheol”, the garbage dump, and this is quite a good metaphor since hell is experiencing the personal garbage and the ramifications of our personal garbage, as it were, thru the “Eyes” of Love.

Hell is not some monolithic place that God made but it is custom built by its inhabitant.

Jesus went to “everyone’s hell” in the “payment of the ransom”, sometimes we get so wrapped up in thinking of the physicality of the cross that we seem to totally forget that there was much more going on there.