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simpleas
Guest
Are you saying that we create our own personal hell now, and that hell as a place does not exist?
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fhansen
Guest
So why do you seem to insist that eternal life-or eternal death- in hell is not an option? Especially since the Church teaches it? Now having said that, I wouldn’t presume to know exactly where God is going with His plan-only what He’s revealed to and through the Church. But I do appreciate what a Catholic visionary, Julian of Norwich, who’s quoted in our Catechism, had revealed to her. She lived during the Black Plague, and, having a burden for so many dying around her, prayed to know their eternal fate. During one of her “shewings” God gave her this locution which, without directly revealing how it would work, nonetheless brought forth in her a great assurance that all would be satisfied with His plan. Very simple, but full of a profound truth we can depend on: “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well”. I believe that in any case.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I am saying that God did not create hell but that God, in God’s Plan, lets us build our own hell with our sins and the ramifications of our sins, that is why when hell is spoken of as “sheol” in the bible, it is quite the metaphor.
This is also why hell is Justice, not the petty vindictiveness that so many seem to view hell as even tho they don’t put it into so many words since they don’t have a clue about hell.
No one is in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, God knows what He is doing and God has a Plan which God has had since before creation and God’s Plan Is GOOD NEWS for ALL.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
fhansen
You wrote concerning Julian of Norwich, “During one of her “shewings” God gave her this locution which, without directly revealing how it would work, nonetheless brought forth in her a great assurance that all would be satisfied with His plan. Very simple, but full of a profound truth we can depend on: “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well”. I believe that in any case.”
As I have said many times, I am not a know-it-all and I know that I do not need to be a know-it-all but I do know a little.
If the “Good News” is not, ultimately, Good News for ALL than the Good News is not Good News at all but would be horrific news, this statement, which I have said and written previously, seems to be in line with what Julian of Norwich perceived, or however one wishes to phrase it, in her “locution”.
Hell and spiritual death are totally different and both beyond horrific and I do not for an instant believe that I have been thru worse than Jesus, actually Jesus went thru worse than me since Jesus, in “paying the ransom” as it is referred too, went to everyone’s and in doing so “won” the “keys” and this is what Jesus referred to when He said, "the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It (Jesus’s Church).
The “captives shall be released” and the “dead shall rise”, something to think about concerning these two statements: anyone going directly to heaven is neither “captive” nor “dead” (spiritually).
You wrote concerning Julian of Norwich, “During one of her “shewings” God gave her this locution which, without directly revealing how it would work, nonetheless brought forth in her a great assurance that all would be satisfied with His plan. Very simple, but full of a profound truth we can depend on: “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well”. I believe that in any case.”
As I have said many times, I am not a know-it-all and I know that I do not need to be a know-it-all but I do know a little.
If the “Good News” is not, ultimately, Good News for ALL than the Good News is not Good News at all but would be horrific news, this statement, which I have said and written previously, seems to be in line with what Julian of Norwich perceived, or however one wishes to phrase it, in her “locution”.
Hell and spiritual death are totally different and both beyond horrific and I do not for an instant believe that I have been thru worse than Jesus, actually Jesus went thru worse than me since Jesus, in “paying the ransom” as it is referred too, went to everyone’s and in doing so “won” the “keys” and this is what Jesus referred to when He said, "the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It (Jesus’s Church).
The “captives shall be released” and the “dead shall rise”, something to think about concerning these two statements: anyone going directly to heaven is neither “captive” nor “dead” (spiritually).
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fhansen
Guest
Either way, your understanding is not Catholic teaching-what the Church considers to be God’s revelation to us. But I do believe, as you, that “All shall be well”. I just don’t presume to know how He’ll do it-and He hasn’t chosen to reveal more on it.
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clem456
Guest
I’m not exactly sure what you are saying. God’s will never infringes on man’s freedom to choose. So while the Church teaches that we do not know who is in hell specifically, it is a good bet that many choose to reject God out of free will.
The reality of hell does not diminish God’s love one bit, or his omnipotence. He is all powerful, but he loves so greatly that he is willing to suffer rejection out of respect for the exercise of our free will.
Would you force your wife to love you? What would that be like? It would be more like rape than love. We want others to love us for love of us, not because we can -make them- love us. So too with God, who loves perfectly, and hence the perfect man goes to the cross out of love for us, subject to the ill will of mankind.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I base some of my “understanding” on things that have happened to me and “pondering” on these things, remember where it speaks of “Mary pondering these things in her heart”?
Just “how He’ll do it” isn’t even important to me but that He will do it, is.
Maybe, it isn’t that “He hasn’t chosen to reveal more on it” but that He has already revealed quite a bit even if this “quite a bit” is not loaded with the “details” of just how it will come about, but we are more interested in the “details” than in the actual “Good News”.
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fhansen
Guest
I doubt that. In any case the Church has been pondering this stuff for centuries, including the thoughts of many others who’ve had things happen to them-and I’m not ready to dismiss the results of those ponderings for everyone else’s ponderings out of hand. I understand that its difficult to reconcile hell, as it’s been described, with the love of God as it’s been revealed-and revealed more intensely/directly at times to some-but it’s also a teaching that’s consistent with both scripture and Church teachings. God is love, but God also opposes evil, because of that love; His justice IOW, is also based on or flows from His love. But, yes, He’ll work out the details. With God, mercy and justice can never be inconsistent with each other.
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Thorns
Guest
I was seeing your point until this post.
How do you explain Jesus’ promise to Dismas, the thief on the cross, that he would be with Him in paradise? He didnt ask Dismas to do anything, He promised him that simply because he accepted Christ.
If there were conditions, Christ would have said he didnt fit the bill.
And God still loves those in hell and it probably hurts Him more than the suffering of those in hell. The way I see is, if a man decides to stray from his wife and cheats on her and tragically contracts AIDs, it was his decisions that lead to him contracting AIDs, not his wife hating and sentencing him to be infected with AIDs.
God says dont let this happen to you and he warns us seriously, but if we ignore that we pay the consequences. Yet, God still loves the person, even if they cant be with Him in heaven due to the choices the person has made by the way they chose to live their life.
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Tom_Baum
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fhansen
You wrote, “With God, mercy and justice can never be inconsistent with each other.”
I would say that justice without mercy would not be justice at all.
I would also say that God’s Mercy and God’s Justice are so intertwined as to be ONE.
You wrote, “With God, mercy and justice can never be inconsistent with each other.”
I would say that justice without mercy would not be justice at all.
I would also say that God’s Mercy and God’s Justice are so intertwined as to be ONE.
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clem456
Guest
I sometimes wonder if the unconditional love of God isn’t the only thing that keeps this world from bursting into flames from the evil we do to one another. We have offended God from the beginning. From Adam and Eve all through the Old Testament, and up to this moment, God’s chosen people go about doing evil. But he has not abandoned us.
Thank God he came to meet us in all our misery in Jesus Christ, God who became the perfect man to suffer our imperfections. In his perfection he becomes one with us, who are stupid and arrogant and prideful. It doesn’t make sense for him to do this, it seems foolish, but if we could understand it, it wouldn’t be God’s perfect love. We can only see it dimly now.
Thank God he came to meet us in all our misery in Jesus Christ, God who became the perfect man to suffer our imperfections. In his perfection he becomes one with us, who are stupid and arrogant and prideful. It doesn’t make sense for him to do this, it seems foolish, but if we could understand it, it wouldn’t be God’s perfect love. We can only see it dimly now.
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grannymh
Guest
It is very simple to explain the necessary conditions that the “good thief” met in order to enter the kingdom of God. They are right there in black on white. Luke 23: 39-43.
:thumbsup:
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Googler
Guest
I’m a poor sinner, far from divine, nor have superior intelligence.
It’s been up to God and forever shall be.
I understand your frustration.
Perhaps you should sip a glass of wine and go soak in a warm bubble bath
Your opinion is very much appreciated. This very day, the Holy Spirit is working through you and the rest of us for the conversion of souls all over the world.
Lucifer, the personification of pride, had been one of the highest angels in the heavenly hierarchy. He envied God’s almighty power. He refused to submit his will to the will of the Creator. As a result he was cast into the hell which came into existence the moment Lucifer sinned. It was through the devil that the human race lost the friendship of God.
Overcoming the evil spirit, is through humility. Proud people are no match for Lucifer.
It’s just common sense to me that, if anyone is in hell, Judas Iscariot would be. He was possessed by the devil. At his betrayal, Christ’s last minute appeal to love enough to trust in his forgiveness was available for his friend, yet Judas’ envy of our Savior and love of money had hardened his heart and he detested himself to the point of despair and betrayed himself as well. “It would have been better for him if he had never been born in body.”
“I have sent him in this life to tempt and molest my creatures that they may conquer proving their virtue and receiving from me the glory of victory.”
~St. Catherine of Sienna
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clem456
Guest
To be clear, the love Jesus offers the good thief is unconditional. And the salvation he attained required the cooperation of his will.It is very simple to explain the necessary conditions that the “good thief” met in order to enter the kingdom of God. They are right there in black on white. Luke 23: 39-43.
Jesus poured himself out on the cross for love of both thieves. He did not die for one and not the other. He loved both to the bitter end. One returned the love, one mocked him. But his love is offered unmerited to both.
One dares Jesus to show his power and save himself from his sacrifice. He wants Jesus to exalt himself, in effect he mocks Jesus’ humility:
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Unwilling to accept humility.
And the other accepts him for who he is
He doesn’t ask for a show of power or a reversal of fortunes. He accepts Jesus’ sacrifice of perfect love, and merely asks to be remembered, to be made present to Jesus in his kingdom. He knows he needs Jesus, and that whatever Jesus has to offer is sufficient, even an ignominious death.
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grannymh
Guest
When dividing up the words condition and unconditionally as to what fits whom, there is the danger of skipping some of the conditions a sinner has to fulfill. So, what would you say are other necessary conditions St. Luke describes in addition to accepting Jesus’ sacrifice of perfect love? (Luke 23: 39-43)
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clem456
Guest
The Gospel of Luke presents the life of Christ, who in his person is the fulfillment of conditions. We are asked to respond by turning around (conversion and repentance) and reorienting of our lives, admitting our own misery and need for God (humility).
I like this as a good basic statement of that.
I will be a sinner for the rest of my life, so I do not meet many conditions. I give my best effort to obey the commandments. I try to be obedient (to listen). God asks me to give my faith, my assent to his will, to trust in him, like a truly good father does.
Without God’s gratuitous love, experienced through prayer, through the Sacraments, through the commandments, through a relationship with him… I am nothing. Faith itself is a gift of his love, because of my own I don’t have much of it.
Because he loves me, he will provide the grace I need to desire him alone. (Hopefully sooner rather than later, but in his time)
If I place my trust in satisfying conditions to merit his love, I am in trouble, cause that means his death on the cross isn’t proof enough of his love.
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grannymh
Guest
May I gently remind you that my post 173 was not about Christ, Who in His person is the fulfillment of conditions. Furthermore, the “conditions” of Christ’s life on earth originally date back to the original condition of Original Sin (Genesis 3: 15). St. Paul, (Romans 5: 12-21) teaches that those original conditions have brought much more by the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ.
May we now continue the discussion about the Good Thief which you referred to in your post 172? My reply post 173 only referred to Luke 23: 39-43 which are the verses devoted to the Sinner and because this Sinner fulfilled the conditions for forgiveness, he was forgiven by Jesus.
So, what are the necessary [sinner] conditions St. Luke referred to?
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clem456
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I guess I’m confused. I thought you were asking me whether the Gospel of Luke expresses God’s love for sinners as conditional. I think I am missing your point.
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glendab
Guest
Hello again Clem.
One of the things that jumps out to me in Granny’s bringing to mind the two thieves at the Crucifixion is this: The one thief, the unrepentant one, wanted God to save himself and the other thief from death. He said “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” From what did the thief wish to be saved? DEATH. The biggest condition of all. And this “proof” of Jesus’ Messiahship wasn’t just desired by the unrepentant thief, it was called for by the people standing by watching, the rulers, and even the soldiers. They all wanted life without death. That’s why it is called “the final test.” We all face it. God didn’t stop it. He submitted to death. One of the most perplexing dilemmas of the ages - God DIED! But to my eyes, this only proves my point. I thank Granny for bringing it up.
To me that speaks volumes about the CONDITIONS God accepted to be one of us. He accepted death on a Cross. He became obedient even unto death. It was man’s fall in Eden that brought sin and death into the world. It changed everything. All Adam and Eve had to do was to live by one condition: don’t eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Clem, you state among other things this: **"Without God’s gratuitous love, experienced through prayer, through the Sacraments, through the commandments, through a relationship with him… I am nothing. Faith itself is a gift of his love, because of my own I don’t have much of it.
Because he loves me, he will provide the grace I need to desire him alone. (Hopefully sooner rather than later, but in his time) If I place my trust in satisfying conditions to merit his love, I am in trouble, cause that means his death on the cross isn’t proof enough of his love. " **
The most troublesome part of your statement is the expectation that because God loves you He will deliver you the grace you need. That is exactly the kind of thinking that comes from allowing the “unconditional” stuff to go to your head. The word “unconditional” is at its best a sentiment. At its worst it is part of the OSAS doctrine of the Protestants. THEY AGREE WITH THAT. Because that is exactly what they mean - the love of God is what saves them. Jesus died for them,etc
Add to this the fact that you think satisfying conditions places you in trouble. How can I show you the value of those who take vows, those who submit to conditions beyond the regular requirements of life as a Christian if you don’t even understand what it means to submit to conditions at all? You think conditions are bad for you. So, what about religious vows? Are they meaningless? Certainly NOT! But they ARE extra conditions voluntarily entered into. And what about matrimonial vows? Aren’t these also an acceptance of CONDITIONs voluntarily entered into? Why should God lead the way by His acceptance of conditions in this life? So others would see the value in them and follow Him by accepting conditions above and beyond those placed upon us by life.
Perhaps understanding things this way is why I personally cringe whenever I hear the phrase “unconditional love of God” tossed into conversations like water on roses. It is tainted water and would eventually kill the roses.
Glenda
One of the things that jumps out to me in Granny’s bringing to mind the two thieves at the Crucifixion is this: The one thief, the unrepentant one, wanted God to save himself and the other thief from death. He said “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” From what did the thief wish to be saved? DEATH. The biggest condition of all. And this “proof” of Jesus’ Messiahship wasn’t just desired by the unrepentant thief, it was called for by the people standing by watching, the rulers, and even the soldiers. They all wanted life without death. That’s why it is called “the final test.” We all face it. God didn’t stop it. He submitted to death. One of the most perplexing dilemmas of the ages - God DIED! But to my eyes, this only proves my point. I thank Granny for bringing it up.
To me that speaks volumes about the CONDITIONS God accepted to be one of us. He accepted death on a Cross. He became obedient even unto death. It was man’s fall in Eden that brought sin and death into the world. It changed everything. All Adam and Eve had to do was to live by one condition: don’t eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Clem, you state among other things this: **"Without God’s gratuitous love, experienced through prayer, through the Sacraments, through the commandments, through a relationship with him… I am nothing. Faith itself is a gift of his love, because of my own I don’t have much of it.
Because he loves me, he will provide the grace I need to desire him alone. (Hopefully sooner rather than later, but in his time) If I place my trust in satisfying conditions to merit his love, I am in trouble, cause that means his death on the cross isn’t proof enough of his love. " **
The most troublesome part of your statement is the expectation that because God loves you He will deliver you the grace you need. That is exactly the kind of thinking that comes from allowing the “unconditional” stuff to go to your head. The word “unconditional” is at its best a sentiment. At its worst it is part of the OSAS doctrine of the Protestants. THEY AGREE WITH THAT. Because that is exactly what they mean - the love of God is what saves them. Jesus died for them,etc
Add to this the fact that you think satisfying conditions places you in trouble. How can I show you the value of those who take vows, those who submit to conditions beyond the regular requirements of life as a Christian if you don’t even understand what it means to submit to conditions at all? You think conditions are bad for you. So, what about religious vows? Are they meaningless? Certainly NOT! But they ARE extra conditions voluntarily entered into. And what about matrimonial vows? Aren’t these also an acceptance of CONDITIONs voluntarily entered into? Why should God lead the way by His acceptance of conditions in this life? So others would see the value in them and follow Him by accepting conditions above and beyond those placed upon us by life.
Perhaps understanding things this way is why I personally cringe whenever I hear the phrase “unconditional love of God” tossed into conversations like water on roses. It is tainted water and would eventually kill the roses.
Glenda
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glendab
Guest
Hello Thorns. Thanks for the reply. I can only hope you’ve read all the thread.
It was said by others that God never stops loving us because His love is “unconditional” which implies to some that it never ends to which I pointed out Hell and its absence of God therefore it contains no love since God is love and where He isn’t, there can’t possibly be love. Is this true? You tell me.
You say that God still loves those in Hell and He is somehow hurt by those there. No. They cease to exist in His mind. That is also a fact the Church knows about Hell. They are eternally forgotten by God. They no longer exist to Him.
Hell is a reality. Think of it often.
Glenda
Here is some simplification of things: God is Love. In Hell there is no God, therefore there is no love, nor anyone He loves because Hell is the eternal absence of God. It has other features like devils and eternal suffering, but for this thread it is sufficient to see that there is no love in Hell.
It was said by others that God never stops loving us because His love is “unconditional” which implies to some that it never ends to which I pointed out Hell and its absence of God therefore it contains no love since God is love and where He isn’t, there can’t possibly be love. Is this true? You tell me.
You say that God still loves those in Hell and He is somehow hurt by those there. No. They cease to exist in His mind. That is also a fact the Church knows about Hell. They are eternally forgotten by God. They no longer exist to Him.
Hell is a reality. Think of it often.
Glenda
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