Unconditional love of God?

[Tom_Baum]

Another interesting prayer that is said in the Catholic Church and that is relatively new:

O my Jesus, have mercy on us. Forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Take all souls into heaven, especially, those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.

Have you ever prayed this prayer?

Have you ever really looked at what is said in this prayer?

O my Jesus, have mercy on us., us is mentioned, not just some of us

Forgive us our sins., us again, not just some of us

Save us from the fires of hell., save us, doesn’t say keep us but save us

Take all souls into heaven, sounds pretty catholic to me

especially, those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen

Personally, I think/believe that God likes when we pray for others, what do you think concerning this?

 

[Tom_Baum]

No that wasn’t me Tom, I think it was Simpleas

Sorry, my mistake, it was a quote from simpleas in your post, thanks for pointing this out to me

 

[simpleas]

clem456

You asked, “The devil created hell did he not? How do some people believe in eternal fire of hell, some just believe its a separation from God, or a place we have created ourselves?”

I don’t believe that the devil created anything, I don’t think that he has the power to create anything, do you believe that the devil has any kind of “creative powers”?
Ever heard of the “consuming fire of God”?

God Is a Being of Love and the “consuming fire of God” could burn off all crud without burning off any of the good, one of the metaphors used for this is the fires that burn and yet leave the gold.

We seem to forget that not only is there hell but there is also spiritual death, they are not the same.

There is a difference between seeing something and experiencing something.

No your probably right. God must have created hell, the underworld where he sent satan after he turned against him. This is where I thought we were to believe hell is. Not a place we create ourselves.

 

[Tom_Baum]

One of the best descriptions I have read of hell goes kinda like this: it is not necessarily a place that was created, but a sort of black hole of selfishness, where a person exists unable to accept the goodness that surrounds them. Everything the soul experiences is swallowed up in selfishness and cannot be given back, or responded to. The person in hell can see God and knows how much he God loves him, but lives eternally unable to truly accept it or reciprocate. They burn with regret and envy at what they cannot be united to.

It’s hard to fathom that God makes people “chosen” when he loves all unconditionally. I would like to think our idea of “chosen” does not express the reality of it very well.

It helps me to remember that God does not live in one time zone, he sees all time in eternity. Past, present, and future are all one eternity for him. He knows all things from all times in one time. We can only live in the present. God knows the disposition or "choseness " of our souls out of his eternity. We do not, we are in the dark. And we believe that if God knows this, then he has robbed us of his love and/or our free will. It’s a mystery.

Your “One of the best descriptions” is indeed horrible and since it is written “All things are possible with God” and I take “All things” to mean “All good things”, that God is capable of and more than willing to bust thru this “selfishness”.

As far as “chosen”, I think that some look at “chosen” and think that this means that someone chosen is somehow better or looked upon by God as better, whereas, I look at “chosen” as simply being chosen for something such as a specific “job”, so to speak, to do.

I happen to believe that many of us at times attempt to “small” God in trying to figure God out and in the process make God in our image, bringing God down to size so to speak, rather than just accepting that if God really is God and deserving, so to speak, of that designation than God is way byond our comprehension or conception.

I have said that I have met God the Father and in that meeting came to the realization that the statement, God Is Love, is quite literal in that God Is a Being of Love rather than Love being an attribute of God and I know that Love being a Being is beyond my conception and I believe it is beyond any human being’s conception.

 

[simpleas]

One of the best descriptions I have read of hell goes kinda like this: it is not necessarily a place that was created, but a sort of black hole of selfishness, where a person exists unable to accept the goodness that surrounds them. Everything the soul experiences is swallowed up in selfishness and cannot be given back, or responded to. The person in hell can see God and knows how much he God loves him, but lives eternally unable to truly accept it or reciprocate. They burn with regret and envy at what they cannot be united to.

It’s hard to fathom that God makes people “chosen” when he loves all unconditionally. I would like to think our idea of “chosen” does not express the reality of it very well.

It helps me to remember that God does not live in one time zone, he sees all time in eternity. Past, present, and future are all one eternity for him. He knows all things from all times in one time. We can only live in the present. God knows the disposition or "choseness " of our souls out of his eternity. We do not, we are in the dark. And we believe that if God knows this, then he has robbed us of his love and/or our free will. It’s a mystery.

Yes I like to believe that Gods love is for all, but obliviously only for people who love him, by that I mean they may not believe in Christ but are directed to God in another loving way. People don’t believe in God but are good people are probably included too.

 

[Tom_Baum]

No your probably right. God must have created hell, the underworld where he sent satan after he turned against him. This is where I thought we were to believe hell is. Not a place we create ourselves.

You have heard of sheol and that it is a metaphor for hell in the bible and that sheol was, basically, the garbage dump.

I would say that sometimes metaphors can be quite the metaphor.

Something to think about: God, in God’s Justice, could have allowed us to build the “Justice” that we not only deserve but sometimes need.

God, in God’s Omniscience, knew that some would and some would not “repent” this side of breath.

Shouldn’t “justice” be not only to correct someone but to show someone just what they are being corrected for?

Didn’t David need to be told (shown) by the prophet?

Since God has “conquered” death, why should death be a “barrier” to God in God’s dealing with us?

 

[OneSheep]

To me that speaks volumes about the CONDITIONS God accepted to be one of us. He accepted death on a Cross. He became obedient even unto death. It was man’s fall in Eden that brought sin and death into the world. It changed everything. All Adam and Eve had to do was to live by one condition: don’t eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This is the case if you take the creation story literally. Another option is to see the creation story as an allegory for the acquisition of our God-given conscience. Granny and I went round and round on that one, God bless her.

Clem,…

The most troublesome part of your statement is the expectation that because God loves you He will deliver you the grace you need. That is exactly the kind of thinking that comes from allowing the “unconditional” stuff to go to your head. The word “unconditional” is at its best a sentiment. At its worst it is part of the OSAS doctrine of the Protestants. THEY AGREE WITH THAT. Because that is exactly what they mean - the love of God is what saves them. Jesus died for them,etc

I think Clem answered the thief part well, but let me add a little something to mix things up. I was introduced to a fuller commitment to Christ from protestants, who spoke some about “unconditional love”, but the very base of their faith was definitely a God who loves conditionally. “Unless you…” Where I actually found a faith based on unconditional love is where my roots are, in the Catholic Church. I am thinking that this may be the exact opposite of your experience.

Add to this the fact that you think satisfying conditions places you in trouble. How can I show you the value of those who take vows, those who submit to conditions beyond the regular requirements of life as a Christian if you don’t even understand what it means to submit to conditions at all? You think conditions are bad for you. So, what about religious vows? Are they meaningless? Certainly NOT! But they ARE extra conditions voluntarily entered into. And what about matrimonial vows? Aren’t these also an acceptance of CONDITIONs voluntarily entered into? Why should God lead the way by His acceptance of conditions in this life? So others would see the value in them and follow Him by accepting conditions above and beyond those placed upon us by life.

Perhaps understanding things this way is why I personally cringe whenever I hear the phrase “unconditional love of God” tossed into conversations like water on roses. It is tainted water and would eventually kill the roses.

Glenda

Yes, I see, you are thinking of the word “unconditional” as a contaminant. How about “boundless” or “unlimited”? These are words that others have used.

I cannot speak for other vows, but when I married my wife, I made a vow to love her and remain faithful to her unconditionally. One by one, I thought of all the things she could do that would be a problem, and one by one I committed to loving her despite any and all of those occurrences. This was actually the beginning of my journey in discovering the unconditional love of God. I had to actually commit to love her without limit in order to see that God loves, and forgives, without limit. We are still very much in love and committed to one another after 31 years.

The God we perceive is the God we project. I cannot imagine God loving anyone in a more limited way than I love my wife.

 

[grannymh]

This is the case if you take the creation story literally. Another option is to see the creation story as an allegory for the acquisition of our God-given conscience. Granny and I went round and round on that one, God bless her.

And may God continue to bless you and yours.

There is actually a third option or approach to the first three chapter of Genesis. No one is limited to either literally *or *allegory.

This simple third option is to understand Catholic doctrines which flow, in some manner, from those beginning chapters.

Yes, I see, you are thinking of the word “unconditional” as a contaminant. How about “boundless” or “unlimited”? These are words that others have used.

I cannot speak for other vows, but when I married my wife, I made a vow to love her and remain faithful to her unconditionally. One by one, I thought of all the things she could do that would be a problem, and one by one I committed to loving her despite any and all of those occurrences. This was actually the beginning of my journey in discovering the unconditional love of God. I had to actually commit to love her without limit in order to see that God loves, and forgives, without limit. We are still very much in love and committed to one another after 31 years.

Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.
God forgives us as many times as we actively seek His forgiveness.

 

[fhansen]

And may God continue to bless you and yours.

There is actually a third option or approach to the first three chapter of Genesis. No one is limited to either literally *or *allegory.

This simple third option is to understand Catholic doctrines which flow, in some manner, from those beginning chapters.

Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.
God forgives us as many times as we actively seek His forgiveness.

In any case God *loves *us regardless of whether or not we actively seek His love.

 

[Tom_Baum]

And may God continue to bless you and yours.

There is actually a third option or approach to the first three chapter of Genesis. No one is limited to either literally *or *allegory.

This simple third option is to understand Catholic doctrines which flow, in some manner, from those beginning chapters.

Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.
God forgives us as many times as we actively seek His forgiveness.

You wrote, “Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.”

And right after this “excellent proposal”, you place a “limit” and a “bound”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

In any case God loves us regardless of whether or not we actively seek His love.

One way to look at it is, if Love was merely an attribute of God maybe God could love us or not love us but since God Is a Being of Love, God can NOT not Love even if God’s Love would be painful to us so that is why, at least one of the reasons, God came up with a Plan even before creation.

 

[grannymh]

Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.
God forgives us as many times as we actively seek His forgiveness.

You wrote, “Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.”

And right after this “excellent proposal”, you place a “limit” and a “bound”.

My apology. I should have been more explicit.

Would the following be more clear? We need clarity because there is a whale of a difference between God and humans.

Viewing God as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.
God forgives **humans **as many times as humans actively seek God’s forgiveness.

We humans are limited in what we can do. We humans are bound to our human nature. Yet, we have been given the unbelievable gift of freedom to act or not to act, to do this or that, to perform deliberate actions on our own responsibility. (CCC, 1731-1732)

Most of all, we are limited by our own human nature which is not equal to God’s Divine nature.

We do not have the power to remove the difference between God and humans. In spite of our material conditions, for example our dependence on food and air, God chose to make us in the image of Himself. This means that we are a spiritual being who is capable of an unique relationship with our Creator. Each human is called by **God **to share in His own life – known as the state of Sanctifying Grace.
(CCC, 355-357; CCC, 1730-1731; CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

The condition of being in an unique relationship with a Divine Creator is that we humans live in free submission and free obedience to God. (CCC, 396) This means living in the state of Sanctifying Grace. Mortal sin destroys the Divine Life in our soul and constitutes a turning away from our Creator.
(CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889)

I truly doubt that there is any **human **who can remove the conditions of being a **human **creature. Am I wrong?

 

[OneSheep]

You wrote, “Viewing “unconditional” as boundless or unlimited is an excellent proposal.”

And right after this “excellent proposal”, you place a “limit” and a “bound”.

Let me save you a bit of typing Tom. In the theology of Granny, which is exactly in line with that of the Church (In the world according to Granny, sorry Granny, all theology is based on our own worlds) people can love each other unconditionally, but God does not love us without condition. I am using “love” here, but our past discussions were specifically about forgiveness, which is an act of love.

I apologize ahead of time, Granny, if this was an oversimplification.

Given that this is her view, there is really no need to try and counterpoint. This is based on her relationship with God, and it works for her, it makes sense to her.

 

[clem456]

Let me save you a bit of typing Tom. In the theology of Granny, which is exactly in line with that of the Church (In the world according to Granny, sorry Granny, all theology is based on our own worlds) people can love each other unconditionally, but God does not love us without condition.

I think she is expressing just the opposite?

 

[glendab]

Dear Onesheep – Granny’s right on target. There are conditions God places on man still. His love for us doesn’t remove them or nullify them. Pay attention F Hansen!

Let me save you a bit of typing Tom. In the theology of Granny, which is exactly in line with that of the Church (In the world according to Granny, sorry Granny, all theology is based on our own worlds) people can love each other unconditionally, but God does not love us without condition. I am using “love” here, but our past discussions were specifically about forgiveness, which is an act of love.

I apologize ahead of time, Granny, if this was an oversimplification.

Given that this is her view, there is really no need to try and counterpoint. This is based on her relationship with God, and it works for her, it makes sense to her.

I’m taking issue with your supposition that forgiveness is an act of love.

That isn’t necessarily true. If you smack into me on the highway and it is because you ran a red light and my poor little car is demolished and I jump out and we exchange insurances, etc. I will as a human be very upset at you, your car and the mess you made in my life at that time. I will get angry and will also need to forgive you to free myself from the excess of negative emotions such an occurrence involves. I’ll forgive you and get on with my life. But I also may call a lawyer who will be very interested in making sure the mess you made gets cleaned up and a type of human justice happens because YOU ran the red light.

Now, I may have very well forgiven you almost instantly at that time because I’m Christian and it comes pretty natural to do so. But when I do that I have no feelings of love towards you. My love has nothing to do with my act of forgiveness. I don’t go in my head “Oh I love this guy who smacked into me so I must forgive all this mess he made of my car, etc” Sorry, but I don’t think like that. I forgive you, but I don’t love you. Forgiveness is a condition God places on us when He tells us that our Heavenly Father will forgive if we do. So, even if I only forgive in a very rudimentary way because God requires I forgive so He can forgive me, I am once again seeing a condition on God’s forgiveness of me. No warm and fuzzy “unconditional love” there at all. Just a fact: forgive to be forgiven.

**I think that is one of the problems with believing in an “unconditional” love of God - it presupposes that one will be forgiven because one is loved. This is presumption. ** It isn’t healthy for solid Christian thinking. But that really is just my opinion and I’m no expert on anything (except maybe scrambled eggs and toast).

No, I still don’t believe in an “unconditional” love from God for me personally. I’ve stated my case pretty well if I say so myself and no one has yet convinced me it is necessary for my salvation to do so.

Glenda

 

[simpleas]

Dear Onesheep – Granny’s right on target. There are conditions God places on man still. His love for us doesn’t remove them or nullify them. Pay attention F Hansen!

I’m taking issue with your supposition that forgiveness is an act of love.

That isn’t necessarily true. If you smack into me on the highway and it is because you ran a red light and my poor little car is demolished and I jump out and we exchange insurances, etc. I will as a human be very upset at you, your car and the mess you made in my life at that time. I will get angry and will also need to forgive you to free myself from the excess of negative emotions such an occurrence involves. I’ll forgive you and get on with my life. But I also may call a lawyer who will be very interested in making sure the mess you made gets cleaned up and a type of human justice happens because YOU ran the red light.

Now, I may have very well forgiven you almost instantly at that time because I’m Christian and it comes pretty natural to do so. But when I do that I have no feelings of love towards you. My love has nothing to do with my act of forgiveness. I don’t go in my head “Oh I love this guy who smacked into me so I must forgive all this mess he made of my car, etc” Sorry, but I don’t think like that. I forgive you, but I don’t love you. Forgiveness is a condition God places on us when He tells us that our Heavenly Father will forgive if we do. So, even if I only forgive in a very rudimentary way because God requires I forgive so He can forgive me, I am once again seeing a condition on God’s forgiveness of me. No warm and fuzzy “unconditional love” there at all. Just a fact: forgive to be forgiven.
**I think that is one of the problems with believing in an “unconditional” love of God - it presupposes that one will be forgiven because one is loved. This is presumption. ** It isn’t healthy for solid Christian thinking. But that really is just my opinion and I’m no expert on anything (except maybe scrambled eggs and toast).

No, I still don’t believe in an “unconditional” love from God for me personally. I’ve stated my case pretty well if I say so myself and no one has yet convinced me it is necessary for my salvation to do so.

Glenda

Wouldn’t this be because you are only a human and not God? And you seem to say you know God would not forgive you if you have not forgiven someone for something done to you?

I’m definately no expert either, but I wouldn’t restrict God on anything we humans think he may or may not do for us all.

 

[Usagi]

Dear Onesheep – Granny’s right on target. There are conditions God places on man still. His love for us doesn’t remove them or nullify them. Pay attention F Hansen!

No, God’s love does not alter the conditions He places on us … indeed I would argue that His love is the source of those conditions.

However, those conditions do not condition His love. God loves sinners before they repent, loves us when we struggle and fall.

That is NOT the same thing as saying God will save everyone no matter what their attitudes or behavior. “God’s love” and “salvation” are not the same thing. I’m pretty sure God loves Satan and would take him back in an instant if Satan would only repent. That doesn’t keep Satan from spending eternity in Hell because he does not repent.

Now, I may have very well forgiven you almost instantly at that time because I’m Christian and it comes pretty natural to do so. But when I do that I have no feelings of love towards you. My love has nothing to do with my act of forgiveness. I don’t go in my head “Oh I love this guy who smacked into me so I must forgive all this mess he made of my car, etc” Sorry, but I don’t think like that. I forgive you, but I don’t love you.

Christian love, and therefore the love of God, have very little to do with feelings. Love is willing someone else’s good as much as you do your own, even if you don’t actually like the other person very much. God wills Heaven, the ultimate good, for every human even though we constantly fail and disappoint Him. (Again, that is not saying that Heaven is ours even if we remain in our sin – there are conditions on the Beatific Vision, but not on being loved by God in the first place.)

**I think that is one of the problems with believing in an “unconditional” love of God - it presupposes that one will be forgiven because one is loved. This is presumption. **

It isn’t healthy for solid Christian thinking. But that really is just my opinion and I’m no expert on anything (except maybe scrambled eggs and toast).

No, I still don’t believe in an “unconditional” love from God for me personally. I’ve stated my case pretty well if I say so myself and no one has yet convinced me it is necessary for my salvation to do so.

Glenda

Your Protestant and ex-Catholic friends aside, no one in this thread who has defended the unconditional love of God has done so because they believe in salvation without repentance and sanctification. We know that God forgives only the repentant and ultimately permits into Heaven only those He has perfectly sanctified. However, it is also He who gives us the grace to repent, over and over again if necessary, and who – if we but get our wills out of the way – sanctifies us over the course of our lives and in Purgatory. At no point does God just stop and give up on us. You have denied that He loves those in Hell, but I believe He does. Of course, they do not experience His presence or love because they have cut themselves off, but that doesn’t mean He doesn’t still love what He has made. After all, if He for one moment regretted making any of us we would simply cease to exist, yet He sustains blessed and damned souls alike for eternity.

I think that’s what a lot of people in this thread have been trying to say to you and that you have either not understood or rejected – conditions on salvation do not equal conditions on God’s love. God loved every single human being during the thousands or even millions of years between the Fall and the Crucifixion, when absolutely no one went to Heaven.

Usagi

 

[fhansen]

Dear Onesheep – Granny’s right on target. There are conditions God places on man still. His love for us doesn’t remove them or nullify them. Pay attention F Hansen!

I always maintained that there were conditions on man’s* salvation*-but not on God’s love for man-which you finally seem to be off-handedly agreeing to with the above remark? This love of God for all His creation is a basic tenant of Christianity. I’m still not sure where granny comes down on this however.

 

[grannymh]

I always maintained that there were conditions on man’s* salvation*-but not on God’s love for man-which you finally seem to be off-handedly agreeing to with the above remark? This love of God for all His creation is a basic tenant of Christianity. I’m still not sure where granny comes down on this however.

I am not down on God’s love for all creation. I am concerned about the various misinterpretations of God’s love. One serious concern is the human tendency to ignore the complete results of Mortal Sin by implying that God’s love ignores those same complete results. Considering the devastation which occurs as the result of freely and deliberately choosing to commit Mortal Sin …

 

[clem456]

There are really two separate questions being discussed here.

1. What is the nature of God’s love? The title of the thread is "unconditional love of God?"And to answer that, we look at how God is revealed to us. The Church expresses this to us in various ways through scripture and the catechism, etc… Human beings have no effect on the nature of God. Hence if God loves unconditionally, if he IS love… anything we do or fail to do cannot change him.
2. How do humans love?. How do we respond to who God is? Do we accept his love and act on it? The answer to that question is all over the place. None of us love as God does. We do not love unconditionally.

These two question are getting confused.
Some of us are talking about who God is, some are talking about who humans are. But we should not project human nature on to God, as if he is made in our image.