Unconditional love of God?

[fhansen]

Hello again Clem.

One of the things that jumps out to me in Granny’s bringing to mind the two thieves at the Crucifixion is this: The one thief, the unrepentant one, wanted God to save himself and the other thief from death. He said “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” From what did the thief wish to be saved? DEATH. The biggest condition of all. And this “proof” of Jesus’ Messiahship wasn’t just desired by the unrepentant thief, it was called for by the people standing by watching, the rulers, and even the soldiers. They all wanted life without death. That’s why it is called “the final test.” We all face it. God didn’t stop it. He submitted to death. One of the most perplexing dilemmas of the ages - God DIED! But to my eyes, this only proves my point. I thank Granny for bringing it up.

To me that speaks volumes about the CONDITIONS God accepted to be one of us. He accepted death on a Cross. He became obedient even unto death. It was man’s fall in Eden that brought sin and death into the world. It changed everything. All Adam and Eve had to do was to live by one condition: don’t eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Clem, you state among other things this: "Without God’s gratuitous love, experienced through prayer, through the Sacraments, through the commandments, through a relationship with him… I am nothing. Faith itself is a gift of his love, because of my own I don’t have much of it.
Because he loves me, he will provide the grace I need to desire him alone. (Hopefully sooner rather than later, but in his time) If I place my trust in satisfying conditions to merit his love, I am in trouble, cause that means his death on the cross isn’t proof enough of his love. "

The most troublesome part of your statement is the expectation that because God loves you He will deliver you the grace you need. That is exactly the kind of thinking that comes from allowing the “unconditional” stuff to go to your head. The word “unconditional” is at its best a sentiment. At its worst it is part of the OSAS doctrine of the Protestants. THEY AGREE WITH THAT. Because that is exactly what they mean - the love of God is what saves them. Jesus died for them,etc

Add to this the fact that you think satisfying conditions places you in trouble. How can I show you the value of those who take vows, those who submit to conditions beyond the regular requirements of life as a Christian if you don’t even understand what it means to submit to conditions at all? You think conditions are bad for you. So, what about religious vows? Are they meaningless? Certainly NOT! But they ARE extra conditions voluntarily entered into. And what about matrimonial vows? Aren’t these also an acceptance of CONDITIONs voluntarily entered into? Why should God lead the way by His acceptance of conditions in this life? So others would see the value in them and follow Him by accepting conditions above and beyond those placed upon us by life.

Perhaps understanding things this way is why I personally cringe whenever I hear the phrase “unconditional love of God” tossed into conversations like water on roses. It is tainted water and would eventually kill the roses.

Glenda

Did God cease loving mankind after the Fall? God will allow us to choose for Him, with all that implies in terms of our obedience, or *against Him, with all that implies in terms of lack *of obedience, in spite of His profound love for us. It is the love of God that saves us in the end, BTW, and our response to it.

 

[clem456]

I’m sorry I see what you are discussing.
Let me quote the “thief” passage in it’s entirety.

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left.
34 Jesus said, **“Father, forgive them, **for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”
36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”
38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, **“Jesus, remember me **when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus offers forgiveness prior to repentance to both thieves and to the executioners. He does not impose conditions first. This may seem like hair splitting but it makes all the difference.
One thief doubts him and asks for Jesus to go against his father’s will by saving himself and them. Jesus’ cross is empty of meaning to this man. He thinks his forgiveness should entail exoneration from the law and avoidance of justice, rather than trusting the mercy of God to heal his sin.

The other responds with the fear of God, a sense of sorrow and justice (repentance) at his own misery and failings, and he recognizes God for who he is (this man has done nothing wrong).
He accepts Jesus’ forgiveness, even though he is still a thief, and dying a just death. He asks simply for Jesus to remember him. He doesn’t ask for Jesus to take away his status as a thief. He is condemned under the law, he knows it and accepts it, but trusts that Jesus can heal all that.
He accepts who he is, a sinner, and accepts who God is, which is unconditional love and forgiveness.

 

[OneSheep]

I am saying that God did not create hell but that God, in God’s Plan, lets us build our own hell with our sins and the ramifications of our sins, that is why when hell is spoken of as “sheol” in the bible, it is quite the metaphor.

This is also why hell is Justice, not the petty vindictiveness that so many seem to view hell as even tho they don’t put it into so many words since they don’t have a clue about hell.

No one is in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, God knows what He is doing and God has a Plan which God has had since before creation and God’s Plan Is GOOD NEWS for ALL.

To me, hell is a mystery. We are nothing without God, so if we choose to go to hell, God comes with us. Yes, we do live in our own hells on earth, I agree with that.

Personally, I don’t think anyone stays in hell. Does anyone choose to go to hell? I would think that purgatory is a time where all of our blindness and ignorance is purged, and the person would see hell as ridiculous.

I suppose that there is the possibility that a person stubbornly refuses to resist awareness, and chooses hell. I like what a priest once said, “If a person chooses to go to hell, he does so screaming and kicking against God the whole way.” It was his opinion, and I agree with it. I would do the same with a child who rejected me. I would try until the end to get them back, and why would God not take a person back from hell if they finally changed their mind? With God, all things are possible, a loving possible.

Anyway, I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about hell, and I like the conversation here about unconditional love, unlimited love.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Googler

You wrote, “It’s just common sense to me that, if anyone is in hell, Judas Iscariot would be. He was possessed by the devil. At his betrayal, Christ’s last minute appeal to love enough to trust in his forgiveness was available for his friend, yet Judas’ envy of our Savior and love of money had hardened his heart and he detested himself to the point of despair and betrayed himself as well. “It would have been better for him if he had never been born in body.””

Could be that God’s “sense” might, at least at times, go against what we consider “common sense”.

“My Thoughts are not your thoughts, My Ways are not your ways”.

As I have said before, I don’t know who will be more surprised when they meet God, those that believe in God or those that don’t believe in God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Googler

You wrote, "I understand your frustration.
Perhaps you should sip a glass of wine and go soak in a warm bubble bath "

You may or may not understand my frustration but I seriously doubt it, most, if not all, of the messengers of God got frustrated including my namesake when he said, “These are hard-headed and stiff-necked people”.

Even Jesus, God-Incarnate, got exasperated at times, one of which was when He said, “Phillip, how loooooog have you been with Me, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”.

By the way, Jesus was NOT saying that He was the Father but that He was/is God.

 

[fhansen]

I think some confusion here comes from different concepts regarding the role of free will in man’s justification and salvation. In some Protestant theologies, especially Calvinism, salvation is a completely free gift, for the elect, no strings attached. They’re totally passive because they’re wills are said to be completely weakened and corrupted due to the Fall; there’s nothing they can contribute. In Catholicism OTOH, while we don’t merit the grace of God, we can reject it nonetheless. But if we accept God’s offer instead, turning to Him in faith, receiving baptism as an act of that faith (providing this is physically possible), we’re completely justified at that point. We’ve done nothing other than to accept.

From that point on, however, our salvation isn’t completely secure (unless we were to die immediately after Baptism); we must work out our salvation, taking up our cross, following Jesus. This involves responding to grace in a variety of ways; the sacraments, prayer, works of love, growing in holiness/justice; in Catholicism justification and sanctification are inseparable. What we do counts. But it’s what we do with what we’re given: what we do is all in response to what God has done-because of His immense love for us- in spite of man’s sin, mistrust, and even hatred of Him.

 

[Tom_Baum]

clem456

You wrote, “One dares Jesus to show his power and save himself from his sacrifice. He wants Jesus to exalt himself, in effect he mocks Jesus’ humility:”

And did you notice that Jesus does show His Power and saves Himself and humanity by His Sacrifice not avoiding It.

We seem to either forget or whatever, that up there on the cross was God-Incarnate, True Man and True God, so in effect since Jesus was saving humanity and Jesus was part of that humanity, something to think about, have you or anyone else ever given any thought to this?

 

[clem456]

clem456

You wrote, “One dares Jesus to show his power and save himself from his sacrifice. He wants Jesus to exalt himself, in effect he mocks Jesus’ humility:”

And did you notice that Jesus does show His Power and saves Himself and humanity by His Sacrifice not avoiding It.

We seem to either forget or whatever, that up there on the cross was God-Incarnate, True Man and True God, so in effect since Jesus was saving humanity and Jesus was part of that humanity, something to think about, have you or anyone else ever given any thought to this?

Yes, I poorly expressed that, I should have used the word “avoid his sacrifice”

 

[clem456]

I think some confusion here comes from different concepts regarding the role of free will in man’s justification and salvation. In some Protestant theologies, especially Calvinism, salvation is a completely free gift, for the elect, no strings attached. They’re totally passive because they’re wills are said to be completely weakened and corrupted due to the Fall; there’s nothing they can contribute. In Catholicism OTOH, while we don’t merit the grace of God, we can reject it nonetheless. But if we accept God’s offer instead, turning to Him in faith, receiving baptism as an act of that faith (providing this is physically possible), we’re completely justified at that point. We’ve done nothing other than to accept.

From that point on, however, our salvation isn’t completely secure (unless we were to die immediately after Baptism); we must work out our salvation, taking up our cross, following Jesus. This involves responding to grace in a variety of ways; the sacraments, prayer, works of love, growing in holiness/justice; in Catholicism justification and sanctification are inseparable. What we do counts. But it’s what we do with what we’re given: what we do is all in response to what God has done-because of His immense love for us- in spite of man’s sin, mistrust, and even hatred of Him.

 

[Tom_Baum]

glendab

You wrote, “Here is some simplification of things: God is Love. In Hell there is no God, therefore there is no love, nor anyone He loves because Hell is the eternal absence of God. It has other features like devils and eternal suffering, but for this thread it is sufficient to see that there is no love in Hell.”

Hell is spoken of as sheol in the bible.

“Where can I go? If I go to the highest heavens you are there, if I go to sheol you are there”.

Just because we say that God is not somewhere, does not mean that it a true statement, seems that the bible itself contradicts what you said.

How about this “simplification of things”, God became One of us for ALL of us and only God knows all of the details of how this will be.

By the way, Love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

 

[Tom_Baum]

glendab

You wrote, “You say that God still loves those in Hell and He is somehow hurt by those there. No. They cease to exist in His mind. That is also a fact the Church knows about Hell. They are eternally forgotten by God. They no longer exist to Him.”

If they would no longer “exist to Him” than they would no longer exist period so that, in effect, they could NOT be in hell because they would not be.

 

[grannymh]

If I place my trust in satisfying conditions to merit his love, I am in trouble, cause that means his death on the cross isn’t proof enough of his love.

I guess I’m confused. I thought you were asking me whether the Gospel of Luke expresses God’s love for sinners as conditional. I think I am missing your point.

I have seen similar thoughts about God’s love in other forums. And I have not yet figured out how to adequately address them. Nonetheless, this cranky granny does not give up easily. Since I am responding from what I hear being said in Luke 23: 39-43, I understand questions.

If you were at the foot of the Cross, looking up at Jesus hanging bloody, you would realize that there would be no way to change His death either by your physical strength or your mental strength. There is no way for us to alter Jesus’ proof of His love for you and me and for all.

But what about our own proof of our love for Jesus? Our love for Jesus means that we seek union with Him. Human persons are the only creatures who are called by God to share in His life. (Genesis 1: 26-27; CCC, 356)

In the 23rd chapter, Gospel of St. Luke, verses 39-43, St. Luke, the succinct reporter of news events, states the condition of our love for Jesus in these words:
“Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

Apparently, this sinner had heard some of Jesus’ teachings because the first words out of his mouth were “Have you no fear of God…” followed by " …this man has done nothing criminal." The Thief knew Jesus as God because He forgave sins. Personally, my favorite forgiven sinner is the one who was lowered through the roof.
(Luke 5, 17-26) Even today, some of us need help, that is a reminder, to get us to the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation. We need to do this often, even when we have no interesting mortal sins, because this Sacrament gives us the graces to clean up our act which often includes annoying venial sins.

When we seek union with the Risen Jesus, we respond to the condition that we recognize our disobedience to God and turn back to God. The Lord turned and looked at Peter who went out and wept bitterly. … When they had finished breakfast, Jesus asked Simon Peter, Do you love Me more than these? … Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. (Luke 22: 31-32; Luke 22: 54-62: John 21: 15-19))

As the Thief said:
"And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes… "
Apparently, the Thief’s sins were mortal both physically resulting in bodily crucifixion and spiritual separation. Spiritual as we hear him calling out to Jesus, asking the God Shepherd to find him in the dark valley and bring him back to God’s kingdom. (John 10: 14-16; Psalm 23)

Note that the Resurrection had not happened; yet, the Thief referred to the future when He deliberately chose the words “…when You come into Your kingdom.” As Jesus often said that His kingdom was not of this world.

What we are hearing from St. Luke is the real need to be truthful about our own sinfulness plus our need to turn toward Jesus. Besides our humbleness in telling the truth, another condition for forgiveness is that we are sorry for our sins, even the annoying ones, and we want to make up for them in some way. We are repentant. We are like the “wedding guests” who need their robes washed before entering the wedding celebration. In my humble opinion, I hear in the Thief’s voice that he knows he is “outside” the kingdom, because he calls out “Jesus, remember me…” The Thief and ourselves, in humility, utter a simple request, remember us – a request which is only possible because we are sorry for our sins and we long to return to the arms of the God Shepherd. Nails prevented Jesus from holding the Thief close to His heart. However, nails and sins cannot limit or change Jesus’ unconditional love for us.

Our sincere sorrow is known as contrition. Perfect contrition goes beyond our natural feelings about penalties because it arises from our deep love of God. Our whole self loves God above everything else as we seek Jesus’ Sacrament of His unconditional love, the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation.
(CCC, 1451-1453)

Jesus continually forgiving us of both mortal and venial sins, is the continual demonstration of the same love He had for the Thief when He conquered death, physical and spiritual, on His cross. His unconditional love for all of us, regardless of what century is ours, is in His Sacraments of Baptism, Confession/Reconciliation, and the Holy Eucharist.

The change is that Jesus changes our own bleeding heart of sorrow into the joy of being in union with Him which does make our earthly life a kind of “paradise.”

 

[Tom_Baum]

OneSheep

You wrote, "To me, hell is a mystery. We are nothing without God, so if we choose to go to hell, God comes with us. Yes, we do live in our own hells on earth, I agree with that.

You misunderstood me, I was not talking about “our own hells on earth”, I was talking about where some go after physical death and that it is something that they built themself and I have also said that Jesus has already been to everyone’s hell, since hell is not some kind of monolithic place that God made but is custom-built by its inhabitant.

This is why I have said numerous times that there was much more going on at the cross than some even think possible, one day people will know just what God did and instead of just a bunch of flowery words, they just might step back and be grateful that God is NOT even close to what so many think God to be and that God’s Plan is for ALL.

The only difference, I would say, between what is called purgatory and what is called hell would be that those in purgatory know that they are getting out, think about it, this is NOT a small difference.

Even tho there are probably not too many that know how horrific hell is, this side of breath, I can not see how anyone, with even a drop of decency running thru their veins, could possibly think/believe that for anyone to be in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, has anything to do with Justice, I just can’t.

As I have said, if the Good News is not, ultimately, for All than it is not Good News at all but would be horrific news, “The ‘captives’ shall be released and the ‘dead’ shall rise”.

 

[clem456]

I have seen similar thoughts about God’s love in other forums. And I have not yet figured out how to adequately address them. Nonetheless, this cranky granny does not give up easily. Since I am responding from what I hear being said in Luke 23: 39-43, I understand questions.

If you were at the foot of the Cross, looking up at Jesus hanging bloody, you would realize that there would be no way to change His death either by your physical strength or your mental strength. There is no way for us to alter Jesus’ proof of His love for you and me and for all.

But what about our own proof of our love for Jesus? Our love for Jesus means that we seek union with Him. Human persons are the only creatures who are called by God to share in His life. (Genesis 1: 26-27; CCC, 356)

In the 23rd chapter, Gospel of St. Luke, verses 39-43, St. Luke, the succinct reporter of news events, states the condition of our love for Jesus in these words:
“Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

Apparently, this sinner had heard some of Jesus’ teachings because the first words out of his mouth were “Have you no fear of God…” followed by " …this man has done nothing criminal." The Thief knew Jesus as God because He forgave sins. Personally, my favorite forgiven sinner is the one who was lowered through the roof.
(Luke 5, 17-26) Even today, some of us need help, that is a reminder, to get us to the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation. We need to do this often, even when we have no interesting mortal sins, because this Sacrament gives us the graces to clean up our act which often includes annoying venial sins.

When we seek union with the Risen Jesus, we respond to the condition that we recognize our disobedience to God and turn back to God. The Lord turned and looked at Peter who went out and wept bitterly. … When they had finished breakfast, Jesus asked Simon Peter, Do you love Me more than these? … Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. (Luke 22: 31-32; Luke 22: 54-62: John 21: 15-19))

As the Thief said:
"And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes… "
Apparently, the Thief’s sins were mortal both physically resulting in bodily crucifixion and spiritual separation. Spiritual as we hear him calling out to Jesus, asking the God Shepherd to find him in the dark valley and bring him back to God’s kingdom. (John 10: 14-16; Psalm 23)

Note that the Resurrection had not happened; yet, the Thief referred to the future when He deliberately chose the words “…when You come into Your kingdom.” As Jesus often said that His kingdom was not of this world.

What we are hearing from St. Luke is the real need to be truthful about our own sinfulness plus our need to turn toward Jesus. Besides our humbleness in telling the truth, another condition for forgiveness is that we are sorry for our sins, even the annoying ones, and we want to make up for them in some way. We are repentant. We are like the “wedding guests” who need their robes washed before entering the wedding celebration. In my humble opinion, I hear in the Thief’s voice that he knows he is “outside” the kingdom, because he calls out “Jesus, remember me…” The Thief and ourselves, in humility, utter a simple request, remember us – a request which is only possible because we are sorry for our sins and we long to return to the arms of the God Shepherd. Nails prevented Jesus from holding the Thief close to His heart. However, nails and sins cannot limit or change Jesus’ unconditional love for us.

Our sincere sorrow is known as contrition. Perfect contrition goes beyond our natural feelings about penalties because it arises from our deep love of God. Our whole self loves God above everything else as we seek Jesus’ Sacrament of His unconditional love, the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation.
(CCC, 1451-1453)

Jesus continually forgiving us of both mortal and venial sins, is the continual demonstration of the same love He had for the Thief when He conquered death, physical and spiritual, on His cross. His unconditional love for all of us, regardless of what century is ours, is in His Sacraments of Baptism, Confession/Reconciliation, and the Holy Eucharist.

The change is that Jesus changes our own bleeding heart of sorrow into the joy of being in union with Him which does make our earthly life a kind of “paradise.”

 

[clem456]

The section on salvation in the catechism expresses what you say also.

GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 **The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify **us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness **of God **through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

1988 **Through the power of the Holy Spirit **we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

**[God] gave himself to us **through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 **Moved by grace, man turns toward God **and away from sin, **thus accepting **forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 **Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness **through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 **Justification has been merited for us **by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since **all have sinned and fall short **of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. …
1993 Justification establishes **cooperation between **God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the **assent of faith **to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the **cooperation of charity **with **the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: **

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
1994 Justification is **the most excellent work of God’s love **…

All this is impossible without accepting God’s love for what it is. It is not possible to justify ourselves through the conditions of the law.
I’m thinking of our Blessed Mother, who was sinless before the law and God. The angel calls her “Full of Grace”.

 

[clem456]

This is beautiful as well:

II. GRACE
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
…
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace.
…
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response
…
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us
…
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
…
III. MERIT
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[simpleas]

OneSheep

You wrote, "To me, hell is a mystery. We are nothing without God, so if we choose to go to hell, God comes with us. Yes, we do live in our own hells on earth, I agree with that.

You misunderstood me, I was not talking about “our own hells on earth”, I was talking about where some go after physical death and that it is something that they built themself and I have also said that Jesus has already been to everyone’s hell, since hell is not some kind of monolithic place that God made but is custom-built by its inhabitant.

This is why I have said numerous times that there was much more going on at the cross than some even think possible, one day people will know just what God did and instead of just a bunch of flowery words, they just might step back and be grateful that God is NOT even close to what so many think God to be and that God’s Plan is for ALL.

The only difference, I would say, between what is called purgatory and what is called hell would be that those in purgatory know that they are getting out, think about it, this is NOT a small difference.

Even tho there are probably not too many that know how horrific hell is, this side of breath, I can not see how anyone, with even a drop of decency running thru their veins, could possibly think/believe that for anyone to be in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, has anything to do with Justice, I just can’t.

As I have said, if the Good News is not, ultimately, for All than it is not Good News at all but would be horrific news, “The ‘captives’ shall be released and the ‘dead’ shall rise”.

I thought you were describing our own hell on earth too.

I think, of course we can create our own hell on earth by choosing to do that which is against God and against our own conscience. Some people have no choice but to live in a “living hell” But when you say I* was talking about where some go after physical death and that it is something that they built themself and I have also said that Jesus has already been to everyone’s hell, since hell is not some kind of monolithic place that God made but is custom-built by its inhabitant.* I never ever thought of hell as somewhere we could create by ourselves, and it will be where we will go after death,( if we refuse Gods love and will) since the CCC states below :

28 And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

AND :

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

ALSO :

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he long.

The devil created hell did he not? How do some people believe in eternal fire of hell, some just believe its a separation from God, or a place we have created ourselves?

Father, accept this offering

from your whole family.

Grant us your peace in this life,

save us from final damnation,

and count us among those you have chosen.

If salvation is for all, why does the CCC say and count us among those you have chosen. Christ is for all not just the chosen?

 

[clem456]

I thought you were describing our own hell on earth too.

I think, of course we can create our own hell on earth by choosing to do that which is against God and against our own conscience. Some people have no choice but to live in a “living hell” But when you say I* was talking about where some go after physical death and that it is something that they built themself and I have also said that Jesus has already been to everyone’s hell, since hell is not some kind of monolithic place that God made but is custom-built by its inhabitant.* I never ever thought of hell as somewhere we could create by ourselves, and it will be where we will go after death,( if we refuse Gods love and will) since the CCC states below :

28 And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

AND :

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

One of the best descriptions I have read of hell goes kinda like this: it is not necessarily a place that was created, but a sort of black hole of selfishness, where a person exists unable to accept the goodness that surrounds them. Everything the soul experiences is swallowed up in selfishness and cannot be given back, or responded to. The person in hell can see God and knows how much he God loves him, but lives eternally unable to truly accept it or reciprocate. They burn with regret and envy at what they cannot be united to.

ALSO :

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he long.

The devil created hell did he not? How do some people believe in eternal fire of hell, some just believe its a separation from God, or a place we have created ourselves?

Father, accept this offering

from your whole family.

Grant us your peace in this life,

save us from final damnation,

and count us among those you have chosen.

If salvation is for all, why does the CCC say and count us among those you have chosen. Christ is for all not just the chosen?

It’s hard to fathom that God makes people “chosen” when he loves all unconditionally. I would like to think our idea of “chosen” does not express the reality of it very well.

It helps me to remember that God does not live in one time zone, he sees all time in eternity. Past, present, and future are all one eternity for him. He knows all things from all times in one time. We can only live in the present. God knows the disposition or "choseness " of our souls out of his eternity. We do not, we are in the dark. And we believe that if God knows this, then he has robbed us of his love and/or our free will. It’s a mystery.

 

[Tom_Baum]

clem456

You asked, “The devil created hell did he not? How do some people believe in eternal fire of hell, some just believe its a separation from God, or a place we have created ourselves?”

I don’t believe that the devil created anything, I don’t think that he has the power to create anything, do you believe that the devil has any kind of “creative powers”?

Ever heard of the “consuming fire of God”?

God Is a Being of Love and the “consuming fire of God” could burn off all crud without burning off any of the good, one of the metaphors used for this is the fires that burn and yet leave the gold.

We seem to forget that not only is there hell but there is also spiritual death, they are not the same.

There is a difference between seeing something and experiencing something.

 

[clem456]

clem456

You asked, “The devil created hell did he not? How do some people believe in eternal fire of hell, some just believe its a separation from God, or a place we have created ourselves?”

No that wasn’t me Tom, I think it was Simpleas