Unconditional love of God?

[glendab]

Thank Mr. Martin for your answer. It helps.

Well, it’s my understanding that this (unconditional love) is more of a protestant view or phrase. Could even be a official theology in some denominations, not sure. But your suspicions could be correct in the view that one must believe to receive salvation and all the benefits therein. But on the other hand there is the view that is amongst the believers in the realization that they them selves have done nothing to warrant the receiving of salvation and it’s benefits, hence in this respect its unconditional as they understand it.

Hence the Truth is the Truth whether you believe it or not, but to receive the benefit of the knowledge of the Truth, surly one would have to believe the Truth and or trust the Truth.

Kind of like a stock is going to gain great value in the near future and some one knows the truth of this and informs you. Hence it was unconditional that this information was made available to you, but to receive the benefits of that information you must believe or place your trust in it.

I agree 100% that the Truth is the Truth is the Truth. It doesn’t change with my or your beliefs.

I never spent much time studying Protestant theology and in fact, have learned much more about what Protestants believe since becoming a Catholic. Go figure. I’m wondering if you know which denominations in particular have an official theology of “unconditional love”? I cannot find the word “unconditional” in my Bible. Nowhere in Scriptures is the descriptive word “unconditional” found before or after the word love in describing God’s love for us. It really is a mystery and in describing it some have adopted some protestant theology, unknowingly perhaps, but it is easy to see.

I’ve been told the saints use it and that it is in the Scriptures but those here at CA who insist it is Catholic teaching have yet to provide exact quotes from Scripture showing the “unconditional” love of God. I hate to press them for them but there it is.

Father Serpa mentioned the merciful love of God but was quick to note it is conditional upon our repentance. Of course I’m substituting “merciful” for “unconditional” love of God in the answer Father Serpa gave. It is a fuzzy area - confusing mercy and forgiveness with love. Presumption tells folks that because God loves them they’ve got no worries and then blinds them to certain things. Loving someone could just well mean telling them the truth about certain conditions upon which their eternal salvation depends.

The love of God is this that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. My yoke is easy and my burden light. I do live in the love of God. Deus caritas est. Fact. But it doesn’t say non condicionis. Oh well.

Thanks again for your help.

Glenda

 

[clem456]

I’ve been told the saints use it and that it is in the Scriptures but those here at CA who insist it is Catholic teaching have yet to provide exact quotes from Scripture showing the “unconditional” love of God. I hate to press them for them but there it is.
Glenda

This is getting silly.
The thread is full of scripture and catechism, which you dispute by arguing with the posters who quote it, not by addressing the specifics.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom. Thanks for the reply.

The Scripture I cited for this discussion pointing to the fact that God does hate humans is Malachi 1:3 and 4: Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau…They shall be called the land of guilt, the people with whom the Lord is angry forever."

As to your thoughts that ALL would be saved: Have you not heard the new translation at Mass during the Eucharistic Prayers of Consecration that say in part: “the blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Notice the change here is from “all” BACK TO “many.” It used to say “all” but that wasn’t correct so they translated it BACK to the correct usage. No, not all mankind it to be saved by the Blood of the Lamb. Nor will they be. Some folks actually go to Hell. REALLY.

I find some sugar coating in the phrase “unconditional love of God” and a slippery slope down which many have slid. Like I said elsewhere, I cringe when I hear it tossed into the conversation. It isn’t true. There are conditions on God’s love. Our’s is a Covenantal relationship. As was said yesterday in the Readings at Mass: 1 John 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.”

I have yet to change my feelings or my position about this supposed “unconditional” love of God. Thanks for trying.

Glenda

Just as the word “hate” in the bible referring to God means to love less, the word many in the bible can and at times does mean all, just as the word thousand does not necessarily mean a thousand but can mean unlimited, there are some things in the bible that are quite literal even tho the “definitions” of some words don’t quite conform to what the english definition might be.

I know that some go to hell, I have experienced both hell and spiritual death, but hell is not some monolithic place that God slings someone into, rather if one goes to hell they will come to the realization that not only did they put themself there but they built it.

Jesus Himself went to hell, think about it, if Jesus took our sins upon Himself and Jesus “paid the price” than how could anyone come to any other conclusion than that Jesus went to hell in “paying the price or ransom” as it is referred to?

As a matter of fact, I believe that I went to the hell that I built but Jesus went to everyone’s hell, that they each individually built, and in so doing won the “keys to the netherworld” (hell and spiritual death), the netherworld spoken of when Jesus said, “And the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, It referring to Jesus’s Church.

Jesus will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time, I, for one, do NOT believe that Jesus died in vain nor do I believe that God’s Plan, of which the Incarnation and everything associated with it, is some half-baked loser plan.

God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is unfolding before our very eyes and is for ALL, ultimately, to be with God.

I am not trying to change your feelings or position or anyone else’s for that matter, on the Love of God being unconditional, if Love were merely an attribute of God I suppose that maybe it could be conditional but since Love Is God’s Very Being, not merely an attribute, this Love just can not be conditional, It just Is.

By the way, hell is not separation from God, separation from God is spiritual death.

Seeing as God Is a Consuming Fire of Love, hell, one could say, is seeing all of one’s sins, wrongdoing, whatever one wishes to call it and their ramifications thru the Eyes of Pure Love.

In other words, God’s Love would not be comforting and consoling, to put it mildly.

 

[Tom_Baum]

There are no conditions on God’s love. But we can reject even that.

Lots of people seem to underestimate not only Love Who Is God but also God’s Plan.

 

[glendab]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your reply.

There are no conditions on God’s love. But we can reject even that.

If there are no conditions on God’s love, what are the 10 Commandments? The Ten Suggestions?

I will repeat what I stated earlier to see if it helps. In Genesis we are told the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. In Eden they had one condition: that they not eat from the fruit of a specific tree. God loved them yet He placed this condition on them. They could eat any fruit they wanted except this particular tree. Satan entered Eden and tempted Eve and the rest is history. Their fall became ours and it was the result of the conditions God placed upon them which they failed to meet and so lost Eden and were cursed by God along with the serpent. If God loved them as some say “unconditionally” wouldn’t He have reacted differently? God loved when He told them not to eat from that tree. Satan teased Eve with the nice looking tree. She fell. Adam soon after. We all have the consequences of their fall. God loved them, yet they fell and were cursed by God. God’s love for them didn’t stop Him from cursing them nor did it fail for He promised His Son’s redemptive death even then. But they still left Eden cursed by God Himself. I think that fact alone should be enough to help others see what they are blind to when they accept the notion of an “unconditional” love God supposedly has.

I think what they actually mean is a merciful love but even that has restrictions as in a person must ask God for mercy and have sufficient sorrow over ones sins, i.e. contrition for it to take effect. But that is Catholic teaching and too legalistic for some. Oh well.

Glenda

 

[davidv]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your reply.

If there are no conditions on God’s love, what are the 10 Commandments? The Ten Suggestions? {snip}
Glenda

The commandments are conditions on man, not God. They are criteria for determining if man is reciprocating God’s unconditional love.

 

[glendab]

oooops! please forgive my bad Latin!

Thank Mr. Martin for your answer. It helps…The love of God is this that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. My yoke is easy and my burden light. I do live in the love of God. Deus caritas est. Fact. But it doesn’t say non condicionis. Oh well.

Thanks again for your help.

Glenda

It should read: non sine condicionis!!! Oooooops. My bad. Sorry; I’m not that good at Latin yet, but with a little grace and some more work I’ll get there.

Glenda

 

[fhansen]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your reply.

If there are no conditions on God’s love, what are the 10 Commandments? The Ten Suggestions?

I will repeat what I stated earlier to see if it helps. In Genesis we are told the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. In Eden they had one condition: that they not eat from the fruit of a specific tree. God loved them yet He placed this condition on them. They could eat any fruit they wanted except this particular tree. Satan entered Eden and tempted Eve and the rest is history. Their fall became ours and it was the result of the conditions God placed upon them which they failed to meet and so lost Eden and were cursed by God along with the serpent. If God loved them as some say “unconditionally” wouldn’t He have reacted differently? God loved when He told them not to eat from that tree. Satan teased Eve with the nice looking tree. She fell. Adam soon after. We all have the consequences of their fall. God loved them, yet they fell and were cursed by God. God’s love for them didn’t stop Him from cursing them nor did it fail for He promised His Son’s redemptive death even then. But they still left Eden cursed by God Himself. I think that fact alone should be enough to help others see what they are blind to when they accept the notion of an “unconditional” love God supposedly has.

I think what they actually mean is a merciful love but even that has restrictions as in a person must ask God for mercy and have sufficient sorrow over ones sins, i.e. contrition for it to take effect. But that is Catholic teaching and too legalistic for some. Oh well.

Glenda

God loves us whether or not we obey; that’s the message of the cross: “Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners”. And He* created* us after all-we reject Him, not the other way around.

 

[glendab]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your response.

God loves us whether or not we obey; that’s the message of the cross: “Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners”. And He* created* us after all-we reject Him, not the other way around.

Ummmm…these are the same propostions Protestants use to support the notion that God loves them “unconditionally” almost verbatim. The implication of their argument in favor of an “unconditional” love of God is that they don’t have to obey anything or anyone meaning mostly Catholic stuff and the Catholic Church. And yes, they stay in a state of rejection of Him because of their belief that they’ve gained His salvation* because He loves them *and died for them period nothing else required. None of the hard stuff - changing one’s behaviors and conforming to the laws and precepts of the Church, etc. These few statements are in fact, blinders people willing put on so they don’t have to take responsibility for their sins, big ones as well as small.

Thursdays Scripture readings point in the direction I’m going in part, 1 John 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

My original premise was that the word “unconditional” was an addition to Scripture and is mostly used in Protestant theology. It has been brought up in conversations I’ve had with several women friends of mine, one Presbyterian and the other a fallen away Catholic. Both independent of each other claim this “unconditional” love of God for them that saves them because Jesus died for them. It almost goes in a circle when I talk to them and they grow as frustrated with me as I do with them because I believe there are conditions by which I must live to gain eternal life with Him whom I love. The wood of the Cross would be stripped bare for me if I refused to follow Him. Following Him means doing all that He did. He lived among us under the Law. Like He says, His yoke is easy, not burdensome and those who find it, find it sweet. That is to carry the Cross after Him. I’ve never said God doesn’t love me. I think He does and I do Him but there is more to it than that.

I think the Baptism of our Lord which we celebrate on Sunday also bears this out. He came to St. John for Baptism and when John asked Him why it was He wanted to be baptized, He said to fulfill all righteousness. To me this points directly to the Covenantal relationship we enter into at our own Baptisms. He accepted the same terms we live by as Baptized Christians. We follow Him by doing the same thing. I think I understand this a little better because I was Baptized as an adult and as part of the process was asked to contemplate my own Baptism. It isn’t just a washing away of sin. It is my entrance into the Church, into the New Covenant. Jesus had no sins on Him to wash away, either Original or personal. So that isn’t why He got baptized. But if we hear Him in His simple words “to fulfill all righteousness” then we begin to understand there’s more to it than just removal of sins for us. Anyone knows this fact: Baptism gives one a place in the Church of Christ. But to be Christian means to conform oneself to Christ, to His Law. He made it. We belong to Him so we keep it.

I still say the notion of an “unconditional” love of God is dangerous to think about. That little word frees the mind from having to give assent to conditions. And in the arguments used to support it, it is suggested that if one doesn’t get it one doesn’t get God Himself. God is love. That is a fact of His existence but His loving kindness gives us Laws to live by, which I say are conditions. Jesus was born under the Law. He accepted the conditions He gave us. Love without obedience isn’t love. “Sure, I love you but I ain’t doin’ anything you say nor am I going to give you love in return. I’m just going to take and take and take.” That is the selfish kind of love one can foster in oneself if one continues to give in to the notion of an “unconditional” love that God has for you. It really is a slippery slope.

If my children came home spouting off about God’s “unconditional love” for them I’d jump into action and tell them the Truth and ask them who they were talking to who tried to “save” them. Then I’d restrict their conversations with that person and keep a close eye on them and make sure they got it right. That’s how I’ve heard the term used and that’s how it is meant. Denial is a river in Egypt that land of slavery!

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your reply.

If there are no conditions on God’s love, what are the 10 Commandments? The Ten Suggestions?

I will repeat what I stated earlier to see if it helps. In Genesis we are told the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. In Eden they had one condition: that they not eat from the fruit of a specific tree. God loved them yet He placed this condition on them. They could eat any fruit they wanted except this particular tree. Satan entered Eden and tempted Eve and the rest is history. Their fall became ours and it was the result of the conditions God placed upon them which they failed to meet and so lost Eden and were cursed by God along with the serpent. If God loved them as some say “unconditionally” wouldn’t He have reacted differently? God loved when He told them not to eat from that tree. Satan teased Eve with the nice looking tree. She fell. Adam soon after. We all have the consequences of their fall. God loved them, yet they fell and were cursed by God. God’s love for them didn’t stop Him from cursing them nor did it fail for He promised His Son’s redemptive death even then. But they still left Eden cursed by God Himself. I think that fact alone should be enough to help others see what they are blind to when they accept the notion of an “unconditional” love God supposedly has.

I think what they actually mean is a merciful love but even that has restrictions as in a person must ask God for mercy and have sufficient sorrow over ones sins, i.e. contrition for it to take effect. But that is Catholic teaching and too legalistic for some. Oh well.

Glenda

Have you ever heard of “O Happy Fault”, in reference to the fall of man?

As I have said before, many underestimate God and many underestimate God’s Plan.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your response.

Ummmm…these are the same propostions Protestants use to support the notion that God loves them “unconditionally” almost verbatim. The implication of their argument in favor of an “unconditional” love of God is that they don’t have to obey anything or anyone meaning mostly Catholic stuff and the Catholic Church. And yes, they stay in a state of rejection of Him because of their belief that they’ve gained His salvation* because He loves them *and died for them period nothing else required. None of the hard stuff - changing one’s behaviors and conforming to the laws and precepts of the Church, etc. These few statements are in fact, blinders people willing put on so they don’t have to take responsibility for their sins, big ones as well as small.

Thursdays Scripture readings point in the direction I’m going in part, 1 John 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

My original premise was that the word “unconditional” was an addition to Scripture and is mostly used in Protestant theology. It has been brought up in conversations I’ve had with several women friends of mine, one Presbyterian and the other a fallen away Catholic. Both independent of each other claim this “unconditional” love of God for them that saves them because Jesus died for them. It almost goes in a circle when I talk to them and they grow as frustrated with me as I do with them because I believe there are conditions by which I must live to gain eternal life with Him whom I love. The wood of the Cross would be stripped bare for me if I refused to follow Him. Following Him means doing all that He did. He lived among us under the Law. Like He says, His yoke is easy, not burdensome and those who find it, find it sweet. That is to carry the Cross after Him. I’ve never said God doesn’t love me. I think He does and I do Him but there is more to it than that.

I think the Baptism of our Lord which we celebrate on Sunday also bears this out. He came to St. John for Baptism and when John asked Him why it was He wanted to be baptized, He said to fulfill all righteousness. To me this points directly to the Covenantal relationship we enter into at our own Baptisms. He accepted the same terms we live by as Baptized Christians. We follow Him by doing the same thing. I think I understand this a little better because I was Baptized as an adult and as part of the process was asked to contemplate my own Baptism. It isn’t just a washing away of sin. It is my entrance into the Church, into the New Covenant. Jesus had no sins on Him to wash away, either Original or personal. So that isn’t why He got baptized. But if we hear Him in His simple words “to fulfill all righteousness” then we begin to understand there’s more to it than just removal of sins for us. Anyone knows this fact: Baptism gives one a place in the Church of Christ. But to be Christian means to conform oneself to Christ, to His Law. He made it. We belong to Him so we keep it.

I still say the notion of an “unconditional” love of God is dangerous to think about. That little word frees the mind from having to give assent to conditions. And in the arguments used to support it, it is suggested that if one doesn’t get it one doesn’t get God Himself. God is love. That is a fact of His existence but His loving kindness gives us Laws to live by, which I say are conditions. Jesus was born under the Law. He accepted the conditions He gave us. Love without obedience isn’t love. “Sure, I love you but I ain’t doin’ anything you say nor am I going to give you love in return. I’m just going to take and take and take.” That is the selfish kind of love one can foster in oneself if one continues to give in to the notion of an “unconditional” love that God has for you. It really is a slippery slope.

If my children came home spouting off about God’s “unconditional love” for them I’d jump into action and tell them the Truth and ask them who they were talking to who tried to “save” them. Then I’d restrict their conversations with that person and keep a close eye on them and make sure they got it right. That’s how I’ve heard the term used and that’s how it is meant. Denial is a river in Egypt that land of slavery!

Glenda

glendab

You wrote, “I think the Baptism of our Lord which we celebrate on Sunday also bears this out. He came to St. John for Baptism and when John asked Him why it was He wanted to be baptized, He said to fulfill all righteousness.”

Do you know that “righteousness” in the bible means to be made right with God?

Ever heard the statement “One baptism for the forgiveness of sins”?

Ever given any thought this this “baptism”, that Jesus insisted on, is the “One baptism for the forgiveness of sins”?

I guess that it depends on the person, since we are all different, that if one thinks/believes that God really does care for us unconditionally whether it would free them from wondering or let them spit in God’s Face, so to speak, as you have tried to put it.

I am not saying that some will not make a detour or so but I am saying that God has had a Plan since before creation and it is a Plan that is truly catholic (small c) in scope.

You wrote, “Following Him means doing all that He did.”

Jesus died for sinners, Jesus extended the invitation to “Come follow Me”, Jesus said, “There is work to be done”.

Do you think that Jesus asked us to die for sinners also and considering that Jesus instituted the Eucharist before His work on the cross that He intends the Eucharist to help us with our own Good Friday.

Do you think that Christianity might not be about picking up one’s “get out of hell” card but working toward having enought “cards” for ALL?

 

[fhansen]

Hello F Hansen. Thank you for your response.

Ummmm…these are the same propostions Protestants use to support the notion that God loves them “unconditionally” almost verbatim.

Yes, as the Church teaches they’re not wrong about* everything.* But any truth can become an abused doctrine.

The implication of their argument in favor of an “unconditional” love of God is that they don’t have to obey anything or anyone meaning mostly Catholic stuff and the Catholic Church.

That implication doesn’t necessarily follow. As I said previously; we’re the wildcard; we can reject God’s love, even unconditional love; we impose the condition. Unconditional love does not imply universal salvation-nor does it imply salvation by faith alone. It just means that God loves His creation enormously, unfathomably, man, especially. Because He *is *love. And, if there’s a condition, His single command to us could be summed up as, “Thou shalt love.” The unconditional nature of God’s love follows from love being His nature-so that, when experienced (a mystical experience we hear about mainly if not solely from Catholic believers); it’s overwhelming, and simply known for what it is.

Thursdays Scripture reading point in the direction I’m going in part, 1 John 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

I agree with this. But we’re to obey out of love in any case (John 14:15)-and we love Him because He first loved us.(1 John 4:19). And love, BTW, fulfills the Law by its nature. (Rom 13:10). That’s the goal anyway, while the law nonetheless serves to tell us what love “looks like”, because we often fail in it. I like the way St Basil of Cesarea put it:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

 

[fisherman_carl]

Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?

I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?

Glenda

One of the best descriptions of God’s unconditional love in the bible is seen in Romans 5:8

“But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

Because God loves us is why he also chastises us.

Hebrews 12:6 (RSV2CE)
"For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

"For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

 

[glendab]

Hello again F Hansen.

Yes, as the Church teaches they’re not wrong about* everything.* But any truth can become an abused doctrine…Unconditional love does not imply universal salvation-nor does it imply salvation by faith alone. It just means that God loves His creation enormously, unfathomably, man, especially. Because He *is *love. And, if there’s a condition, His single command to us could be summed up as, “Thou shalt love.” The unconditional nature of God’s love follows from love being His nature-so that, when experienced (a mystical experience we hear about mainly if not solely from Catholic believers); it’s overwhelming, and simply known for what it is.

I agree with this. But we’re to obey out of love in any case (John 14:15)-and we love Him because He first loved us.(1 John 4:19). And love, BTW, fulfills the Law by its nature. (Rom 13:10). That’s the goal anyway, while the law nonetheless serves to tell us what love “looks like”, because we often fail in it. I like the way St Basil of Cesarea put it:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

Very interesting points, however justifying a Protestant theology doesn’t make it Catholic theology. You say that the term “unconditional love” doesn’t imply an unconditional salvation by faith alone, but that is exactly what is meant when the Protestants use the terminology. Why use their words?

I’ll repeat this: the actual word “unconditional” is added to Scripture to describe THEIR understanding of no obedience, no works, no merited, it’s a gift of grace, etc., or anything necessary to be saved. God loves you. He died just for you. That means you’re saved! As Clem calls it the fundamental building blocks, the core of their beliefs; not mine. I’ll earn my salvation in fear and trembling. It works much better for me. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

You do distort the image of God that He revealed to us in His Son with this statement: “The unconditional nature of God’s love follows from love being *His *nature” by additions. His nature is Triune and too deep for our understanding. He revealed Himself to us as the Son of Man. He didn’t say to us “I am love come love me.” NO! He said “Come follow me.” And following Him meant much hardship. It literally meant the Cross to all but one, John who lived with Mary.

As I stated about Genesis, God loved Adam and Eve and gave them conditions to live by in the garden of Eden. God was very pleased with them. He loved them. They failed to live up to the conditions (eating of the forbidden fruit with the “help” of Satan.) God cursed them and all mankind for their disobedience. Cursed by God showing His conditional love. Love has limits. He didn’t stop loving them for at that hour He promised the Redemption of man with His Son, Jesus. But it took thousands of years. Think about that! I love you; I’m going to save you from yourself, your sins; but it will take the FULNESS OF TIME! Those who want a quick fix forget that it was in the *fullness of time *that He sent His Son. More conditions. Get it. I hope so.

You also state that it is a “mystical experience” to know God’s “unconditional love.” Well, I have no desire to enter into any kind of mystical experience that comes from Protestantism. Yes, they are correct about some things, but their mysticism is very lacking.

The Father’s voice was heard: This is my beloved Son, LISTEN TO HIM. (In Hebrew the words listen and obey are almost interchangeable.)

No, when a Protestant uses the terminology “unconditional love of God,” they’ve completely been freed in their minds from any assent to conditions, no more anxiety about whether or not they’re going to Heaven. It is a given and is also dependent on this same “unconditional” love of God that I still say doesn’t exist. Catholics who use this terminology deceive themselves.

Yes, F Hansen, you are free to believe anything you want. It is your choice. God loves you.

I’ve experienced much love from God. He loves me. I love Him. It does have conditions though and I do my best to keep them. His love feels wonderful, but it doesn’t save me.

Song of Songs: “More delightful is your love than wine! Your name spoken is a spreading perfume—that is why the maidens love you…how rightly you are loved.”

I think Benedict’s words about the disordering of love in the encyclical Deus caritas est are way beyond this conversation. Thanks for participating. It has been helpful.

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

glendab

You wrote, " I’ll earn my salvation in fear and trembling. It works much better for me. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom."

If you “earn” your salvation then you will be the first to earn it, since it is unearnable and “Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with fear.

You also wrote, “.” NO! He said “Come follow me.”"

Yes, Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, it was not to follow HIS Church, not to follow what was written about Him , not to follow a follower of His, but to follow Jesus.

You also wrote, “You also state that it is a “mystical experience” to know God’s “unconditional love.” Well, I have no desire to enter into any kind of mystical experience that comes from Protestantism. Yes, they are correct about some things, but their mysticism is very lacking.”

The Catholic Church has a very long tradition of mystical experiences that it teaches about, two of which would include Fatima and Lourdes and it would be referred to as a mystical experience to meet God and “know” that God Is a Being of Love.

A mystical experience does NOT have to be approved by us to be a legitimate mystical experience.

God Is God and God decides how God is going to do something, God does NOT need our permission to do something.

If God is going to do something that doesn’t fit into our “rules” for what God is allowed to do, does this mean that God can not do it?

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost would have qualified as a “mystical experience”, are you throwing out the teaching of Pentecost?

mystical — adj

1. relating to or characteristic of mysticism
2. Christianity having a divine or sacred significance that surpasses natural human apprehension
3. having occult or metaphysical significance, nature, or force
4. a less common word for mysterious

You also wrote, “I’ve experienced much love from God. He loves me. I love Him. It does have conditions though and I do my best to keep them. His love feels wonderful, but it doesn’t save me.”

Do you consider God your Saviour or do you consider yourself your saviour thru your efforts to “earn” your salvation?

The Catholic Church is not as afraid of Protestantism as some Catholics seem to be afraid of Protestantism.

Would you consider the statement: “Whatever you do or do not do to the least, you do or do not do unto Me (Jesus)”, Catholic, Protestant or Universal?

Notice that the above statement says absolutely nothing about any kind of belief in God, it only considers what one does or does not do.

 

[fhansen]

Hello again F Hansen.

Very interesting points, however justifying a Protestant theology doesn’t make it Catholic theology. You say that the term “unconditional love” doesn’t imply an unconditional salvation by faith alone, but that is exactly what is meant when the Protestants use the terminology. Why use their words?

I’ll repeat this: the actual word “unconditional” is added to Scripture to describe THEIR understanding of no obedience, no works, no merited, it’s a gift of grace, etc., or anything necessary to be saved. God loves you. He died just for you. That means you’re saved! As Clem calls it the fundamental building blocks, the core of their beliefs; not mine. I’ll earn my salvation in fear and trembling. It works much better for me. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

You do distort the image of God that He revealed to us in His Son with this statement: “The unconditional nature of God’s love follows from love being *His *nature” by additions. His nature is Triune and too deep for our understanding. He revealed Himself to us as the Son of Man. He didn’t say to us “I am love come love me.” NO! He said “Come follow me.” And following Him meant much hardship. It literally meant the Cross to all but one, John who lived with Mary.

As I stated about Genesis, God loved Adam and Eve and gave them conditions to live by in the garden of Eden. God was very pleased with them. He loved them. They failed to live up to the conditions (eating of the forbidden fruit with the “help” of Satan.) God cursed them and all mankind for their disobedience. Cursed by God showing His conditional love. Love has limits. He didn’t stop loving them for at that hour He promised the Redemption of man with His Son, Jesus. But it took thousands of years. Think about that! I love you; I’m going to save you from yourself, your sins; but it will take the FULNESS OF TIME! Those who want a quick fix forget that it was in the *fullness of time *that He sent His Son. More conditions. Get it. I hope so.

You also state that it is a “mystical experience” to know God’s “unconditional love.” Well, I have no desire to enter into any kind of mystical experience that comes from Protestantism. Yes, they are ceorrect about some things, but their mysticism is very lacking.

The Father’s voice was heard: This is my beloved Son, LISTEN TO HIM. (In Hebrew the words listen and obey are almost interchangeable.)

No, when a Protestant uses the terminology “unconditional love of God,” they’ve completely been freed in their minds from any assent to conditions, no more anxiety about whether or not they’re going to Heaven. It is a given and is also dependent on this same “unconditional” love of God that I still say doesn’t exist. Catholics who use this terminology deceive themselves.

Yes, F Hansen, you are free to believe anything you want. It is your choice. God loves you.

I’ve experienced much love from God. He loves me. I love Him. It does have conditions though and I do my best to keep them. His love feels wonderful, but it doesn’t save me.

Song of Songs: “More delightful is your love than wine! Your name spoken is a spreading perfume—that is why the maidens love you…how rightly you are loved.”

I think Benedict’s words about the disordering of love in the encyclical Deus caritas est are way beyond this conversation. Thanks for participating. It has been helpful.

Glenda

Hi, Glenda.
I understand your concerns, that God isn’t just some big sugar daddy that expects no obligation of any kind to be fulfilled by us. But I still have no idea why you insist that the concept of unconditional love is exclusively Protestant. Even they impose “faith” as at least a minimum condition-and I truly doubt that many know the true meaning of the concept of unconditional love anyway-I find it to be primarily Catholic-a way of describing God’s nature more than His actions.

I’m not saying that salvation is universal-or that all we have to do is believe in order to be declared righteous. I’m saying that God loves us in spite of our sin, in spite of our not meeting His standards of righteousness, in spite of our possibly selecting hell over heaven, over Him, IOW.

As St Paul describes the nature of love in 1 Cor 13 he actually describes the nature of God pretty darn well, as well as anyone possibly could in simple human terms:

**4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.**

So this is what St Paul wants us to know, this “love that surpasses knowledge”:

**And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. **Eph 3:18-19

 

[glendab]

Okie dokie Tom!

glendab

You wrote, " I’ll earn my salvation in fear and trembling. It works much better for me. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom."

If you “earn” your salvation then you will be the first to earn it, since it is unearnable and “Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with fear.

You also wrote, “.” NO! He said “Come follow me.”"

Yes, Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, it was not to follow HIS Church, not to follow what was written about Him , not to follow a follower of His, but to follow Jesus.

You also wrote, “You also state that it is a “mystical experience” to know God’s “unconditional love.” Well, I have no desire to enter into any kind of mystical experience that comes from Protestantism. Yes, they are correct about some things, but their mysticism is very lacking.”

The Catholic Church has a very long tradition of mystical experiences that it teaches about, two of which would include Fatima and Lourdes and it would be referred to as a mystical experience to meet God and “know” that God Is a Being of Love.

A mystical experience does NOT have to be approved by us to be a legitimate mystical experience.

God Is God and God decides how God is going to do something, God does NOT need our permission to do something.

If God is going to do something that doesn’t fit into our “rules” for what God is allowed to do, does this mean that God can not do it?

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost would have qualified as a “mystical experience”, are you throwing out the teaching of Pentecost?

mystical — adj

1. relating to or characteristic of mysticism
2. Christianity having a divine or sacred significance that surpasses natural human apprehension
3. having occult or metaphysical significance, nature, or force
4. a less common word for mysterious

You also wrote, “I’ve experienced much love from God. He loves me. I love Him. It does have conditions though and I do my best to keep them. His love feels wonderful, but it doesn’t save me.”

Do you consider God your Saviour or do you consider yourself your saviour thru your efforts to “earn” your salvation?

The Catholic Church is not as afraid of Protestantism as some Catholics seem to be afraid of Protestantism.

Would you consider the statement: “Whatever you do or do not do to the least, you do or do not do unto Me (Jesus)”, Catholic, Protestant or Universal?

Notice that the above statement says absolutely nothing about any kind of belief in God, it only considers what one does or does not do.

First off, Fear of the Lord is one of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit, see CCC #1831 and renders those who receive it docile to the workings of the Spirit. I cannot imagine living without it. It keeps things in perspective for me, personally.

Secondly, you said following Jesus isn’t about following His Church, His Word or His Saints but by some twist of imagination about following Him is done by the exclusion of His Word, is Church and His Saints. This is utter nonsense and coming from a professed Catholic, is serious error.

Thirdly, you say this: “If God is going to do something that doesn’t fit into our “rules” for what God is allowed to do, does this mean that God can not do it?” to which I’ll simply ask if the Pope bound something here on earth, would it not also be bound in Heaven? A rule for instance. Please answer carefully. The rules he makes for us ARE our rules. The virtue of their universality is a simple demonstration of this. God is at the other end of the Holy Fathers keys. Always was, always will be. God allows Himself to be bound by them. Jesus stood their as He handed them to St. Peter and said “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in Heaven.” Matthew 16:19. For an understanding of this allowing Himself to be bound by mere humans I’d refer you back to His conversation with St. John the Baptist that was in this past Sunday’s readings: “allow it now, for thus it fitting…” Jesus’ words to St. John.

Fourthly, you imply that by rejecting a Protestant notion of an “unconditional” love I’m somehow rejecting Pentecost and Catholic mysticism! That is silliness. There really isn’t any mystical quality to the Protestant notion of an “unconditional” love of God that saves me. I had it explained to me plainly: God loves me unconditionally. He died for me out of love and that is why I’m saved, if I accept it that way, etc…which to me is hogwash.

And another thing. You say this: “Do you consider God your Saviour or do you consider yourself your saviour thru your efforts to “earn” your salvation?” This I your response to my stating that God loves me and that His love for me isn’t what saves me which is very true. I would expect the refutation of my statement to come right from a Protestant! You say that by denying an unconditional love of God that saves me, I’ve denied His salvation. Poppycock!

Oh well Tom. If I’ve failed to make my points clear to your understanding, I apologize. Sorry. But I will continue to believe that God’s love does contain conditions. I love the Law. You don’t see the value in this. I’ll pray for you that your eyes may be opened.

Glenda

 

[grannymh]

Hello Clem, thanks for the reply.

I’ve shortened your quote to point to a few things.

First, the notion that we are the ones to make conditions isn’t accurate. In the Garden of Eden, there were conditions made by God, and it was Adam and Eve’s failure to live up to those conditions which created for all mankind more conditions. Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden because of consequences that came about because of their failure to live within the conditions placed upon them by God. Adam and Eve didn’t make the conditions, God did. The one condition upon which God maintained their dwelling in Eden is that they not eat the fruit of a specific tree. That was a condition of their existence placed upon them by God who loved them. God cursed Adam and Eve and the devil before casting them out of Eden. Is that “unconditional” love? No. And it is easy to see that the notion that God loves “unconditionally” is that, just a notion.

As for His will being “all-good all the time” as you said, what would you say to the flood that wiped mankind from the face of the earth and left only a few folks alive, Noah and his immediate family? That’s pretty bad - God killing every man, woman and child on earth. It happened. Man failed again to live up to the conditions God placed upon them such that God was compelled to act to save a few.

You do state that God can create conditions which is good of you, He is after all God and He makes all the rules we’re supposed to live by. In fact, He loves us and gives us rules to live by or if you will conditions, because He loves us.

Sorry if I seem hard but as I said, I don’t think God loves us without conditions.

Glenda

May I lay a foundation for a different road to answering your concerns?

First, would you be able to examine the natural difference between God the Creator and Adam the creature? For example. We need to know why Adam had to eat food as nourishment so that he could live. (Genesis 1 :29)

 

[clem456]

In any event, the conversation might be more fruitful with a little less condescension.

 

[hope19]

Hello everyone. I’m going to ask this question because it bothers me sometimes: Have you any knowledge of the “unconditional love” of God that folks seem to think exists?

I understand the love of God a little differently. It sometimes bothers me to hear this. Perhaps I don’t understand what they mean by the phrase “unconditional love” of God. Is there something I’m not getting?

Glenda

Hello glendab,

We don’t need to have knowledge to understand the unconditionnal love of God.
God is the love source; He loves each one of us infinitely, with our sins and when we ask Him to forgive us, He does it with love.

Good night!

hope19