Under Pope Francis, American Catholics see the ‘pro-life’ label as broader than abortion

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I agree, even JP2 said it was permissible in some circumstances so it is not a morally evil object
Noone is arguing that it has a morally evil object. We are arguing that it is subject to the normal fonts of morality applicable to all acts. It can be immoral if retained with bad intentions or when the circumstances proscribe it.
 
Are you addressing that to me? That’s been my argument all along. Ender uses the words of another Pope to contradict the current Pope as a matter of course.

It is clear to blind freddy that the Church is urgently and forcefully advising the abolition of the death penalty today. Why not just understand that in the context of the whole of Church teaching instead of trying to find fault with it?
The only fault I am finding is with some people who seem to think that the Church has “changed” her position and now teaches that capital punishment itself is a moral evil on par with abortion. She does not teach that at all and never has. Whether it is prudential to end the death penalty as it is practiced today in some countries is one question but it doesn’t change the fact that the death penalty can certainly be a moral option in some cases.

Blind Freddy? :confused:
 
Countries who have abolished it from law did not in fact do that against your made up religious principle.
My citing what the church teaches is hardly my rule.
You stand alone in that belief. Neither the Church nor the majority of the world think so.
I said “The determination of whether capital punishment is in fact harmful is obviously a judgment.” It would be helpful if your responses were in the context of my comments.
If that meant that they were positively commanded, we would still be flogging and sending into exile and slavery as punishments as per the list it referred to.
As I pointed out, that list was composed by Cicero, and it was a list of punishments the Romans used. It was hardly a list of divinely instituted punishments.
What’s with abandoning citing sources or at least true authors?
Since you object to my citing anyone earlier than John XXIII I thought I would leave off the authors. That way you have to decide whether you disagree with the statement before you know whether or not is is “safe” to do so. It will be interesting to find out what happens when you disagree with something JPII or BXVI has said.

Ender
 
If Pope St JPII’s position today is nothing more than the personal opinion of a man, why isn’t Pope Innocents position in the year 405AD not just the personal opinion of a man? Or perhaps as Pope each was charged with conveying Gods will to their own flock. There’s a novel thought.
It is a very novel thought as it suggests God changed his mind late in the 20th century.

Ender
 
the Church is urgently and forcefully **advising **the abolition of the death penalty today.
Yes, it is advice. It is not doctrine.*The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of very serious crimes. *
Ender
 
The only fault I am finding is with some people who seem to think that the Church has “changed” her position and now teaches that capital punishment itself is a moral evil on par with abortion. She does not teach that at all and never has. Whether it is prudential to end the death penalty as it is practiced today in some countries is one question but it doesn’t change the fact that the death penalty can certainly be a moral option in some cases.

Blind Freddy? :confused:
In all the CP debates on this forum, I’ve never actually come across one serious debater who believes that it is on par with abortion. I myself agree unconditionally with the Churchs teachings now, in the past and the times to come and for what it’s worth, I fully agreed with the execution of Osama bin Laden (even though it was claimed not to be that).

What is more troubling than anyone believing that CP is an intrinsic evil, is those who believe that it is obliged by a divine positive command and that justice is deficient without it. Those that believe that countries who’ve abolished CP are merely irreligious heathens as Ender continues to post in different threads… "Capital punishment comes to be regarded as barbarous in an irreligious society, that is shut within earthly horizons and which feels it has no right to deprive a man of the only good there is."

All it reveals is the egos of those who believe they are more Catholic than the Pope as they say. The abolition of the death penalty is clearly promoted by the Church as a movement towards greater recognition of the dignity of man. If people have the argument that capital punishment in their view does more good than harm for the community… that is an entirely reasonable view. But noone has a Gods eye view to be able to claim they are holy enough to retain the death penalty as opposed to the irreligious heathens who’ve abolished it. That’s not a legitimate Catholic position.
 
What is more troubling than anyone believing that CP is an intrinsic evil, is those who believe that it is obliged by a divine positive command and that justice is deficient without it. Those that believe that countries who’ve abolished CP are merely irreligious heathens as Ender continues to post in different threads… "Capital punishment comes to be regarded as barbarous in an irreligious society, that is shut within earthly horizons and which feels it has no right to deprive a man of the only good there is."
Actually that opinion was expressed by Romano Amerio, who was called in to participate in Vatican II as one of its theological experts.
All it reveals is the egos of those who believe they are more Catholic than the Pope as they say… If people have the argument that capital punishment in their view does more good than harm for the community… that is an entirely reasonable view.
So it is acceptable for me to believe that capital punishment does more good than harm…but unacceptable for me to employ statements the church herself has made about why capital punishment is justifiable? If you dealt simply with the comments I actually make and didn’t try to judge why I make them your arguments might be more reasonable.

Ender
 
Noone is arguing that it has a morally evil object. We are arguing that it is subject to the normal fonts of morality applicable to all acts. It can be immoral if retained with bad intentions or when the circumstances proscribe it.
The Church has always been against abortion in every circumstance. The same can not be said for the death penalty.
.
 
The only fault I am finding is with some people who seem to think that the Church has “changed” her position and now teaches that capital punishment itself is a moral evil on par with abortion. She does not teach that at all and never has. Whether it is prudential to end the death penalty as it is practiced today in some countries is one question but it doesn’t change the fact that the death penalty can certainly be a moral option in some cases.

Blind Freddy? :confused:
We see it in every election. Catholics who tell us they can vote for a pro-abortion candidate because their opponent supports the death penalty and that mitigates their preferred candidates support of abortion.

The other place we see this misconception used repeatedly is people pushing for the Church to change their teachings on abortion, homosexual marriage or any of the other culturally popular issues that many Catholics would like to see the church embrace. They say “after all the church changed its teaching on the death penalty so why can’t they change their teaching on…”?
 
So it is acceptable for me to believe that capital punishment does more good than harm…but unacceptable for me to employ statements the church herself has made about why capital punishment is justifiable? If you dealt simply with the comments I actually make and didn’t try to judge why I make them your arguments might be more reasonable.

Ender
So you are agreeing that the state has a duty to abolish the death penalty where it becomes obvious that it is harming the common good?
 
So you are agreeing that the state has a duty to abolish the death penalty where it becomes obvious that it is harming the common good?
I know you are addressing Ender but I would not agree with this statement as an absolute. I would agree that if the current use of the death penalty was found to be harming the common good, the state has a duty to change** something.** One of those changes could be to abolish the death penalty. Other options could also be considered such as changes in sentencing guidelines or addressing the needs of society in a different manner.
 
Really, I am a pro-Life Catholic and have always known that being pro-Life was more than abortion …where do these people get this drival from anyway.

Of course without respect for the lives of the un-born …there are no other life issues to deal with…once a baby’s life is ended in utero you don’t have to be concerned with any medical care during infancy, childhood, teen years, nor end of life at the gerontology end of the spectrum…nor a host of other life and justice issues either.

They (whomever they are) always want to imply Catholic teaching is changing …abortion is always a moral evil …other issues - like how to best serve those in need are not as absolute though people would like them to be…

A person has a right to self defense even if lethal force is necessary .it is not equivalent to the taking of innocently life even though some try to equate it.
 
I know you are addressing Ender but I would not agree with this statement as an absolute. I would agree that if the current use of the death penalty was found to be harming the common good, the state has a duty to change** something.** One of those changes could be to abolish the death penalty. Other options could also be considered such as changes in sentencing guidelines or addressing the needs of society in a different manner.
However the harm cited is defined not by the frequency or method of its use but on how the concept of it as a legal option, is fueling our sense of being ‘divinely entitled’ to decide life and death.

Evidence of that was revealed when Osama Bin Laden was killed. The natural response to that is relief and gratitude. But there was overwhelming rejoicing that seemed very unique to the streets of the US.

The Vatican made a specific comment about that type of reaction as being opposed to the Catholic understanding of the right to execute.

cnsblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/vatican-spokesman-on-killing-of-osama-bin-laden/

In meeting people where they are at, the Church is saying that we cannot base our objections to abortion and euthanasia on the right to life unless we are unconditionally pro life on every level. Our argument depends on rejecting the right to the death penalty altogether in these circumstances.
 
In meeting people where they are at, the Church is saying that we cannot base our objections to abortion and euthanasia on the right to life unless we are unconditionally pro life on every level. Our argument depends on rejecting the right to the death penalty altogether in these circumstances.
Where are you reading this? Who is making this statement?
 
However the harm cited is defined not by the frequency or method of its use but on how the concept of it as a legal option, is fueling our sense of being ‘divinely entitled’ to decide life and death.

Evidence of that was revealed when Osama Bin Laden was killed. The natural response to that is relief and gratitude. But there was overwhelming rejoicing that seemed very unique to the streets of the US.

The Vatican made a specific comment about that type of reaction as being opposed to the Catholic understanding of the right to execute.

cnsblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/vatican-spokesman-on-killing-of-osama-bin-laden/

In meeting people where they are at, the Church is saying that we cannot base our objections to abortion and euthanasia on the right to life unless we are unconditionally pro life on every level. Our argument depends on rejecting the right to the death penalty altogether in these circumstances.
Then I think you have to ask “why”. Why is the mere presence of the death penalty as an option, a very rarely used one, fueling a sense of being “divinely entitled” if the same thing wasn’t true for the first 1900+ years of the Church in the world? And can you prove that this is not at all related to the process of sentencing or the method of execution?

I don’t think anyone can honestly assert that the world’s devaluing of human life is solely due to the death penalty existing. And what do we replace it with? We do not, in the US at least, have a method that ensures the protection of others from convicted violent criminals in any foolproof way. We have more inmate killings than people put to death by the death penalty. To say that we are “ok” with criminals killing other criminals but we are not “ok” with legally convicted criminals of very grave crimes being humanely executed is not a stance that is any more valuing of human life.
In meeting people where they are at, the Church is saying that we cannot base our objections to abortion and euthanasia on the right to life unless we are unconditionally pro life on every level.
The Church doesn’t say that at all. In fact Pope Benedict stated that
While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
 
Where are you reading this? Who is making this statement?
It’s Pope StJPII in Evangelium Vitae…

#27 …Among the signs of hope we should also count the spread, at many levels of public opinion, of a new sensitivity ever more opposed to war as an instrument for the resolution of conflicts between peoples, and increasingly oriented to finding effective but “non-violent” means to counter the armed aggressor. In the same perspective there is evidence of a growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as a kind of “legitimate defence” on the part of society. Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitively denying them the chance to reform.

Another welcome sign is the growing attention being paid to the quality of life and to ecology, especially in more developed societies, where people’s expectations are no longer concentrated so much on problems of survival as on the search for an overall improvement of living conditions. Especially significant is the reawakening of an ethical reflection on issues affecting life. The emergence and ever more widespread development of bioethics is promoting more reflection and dialogue—between believers and non-believers, as well as between followers of different religions— on ethical problems, including fundamental issues pertaining to human life.
  1. This situation, with its lights and shadows, ought to make us all fully aware that we are facing an enormous and dramatic clash between good and evil, death and life, the “culture of death” and the “culture of life”. We find ourselves not only “faced with” but necessarily “in the midst of” this conflict: we are all involved and we all share in it, with the inescapable responsibility of choosing to be unconditionally pro-life.
 
It’s Pope StJPII in Evangelium Vitae…

#27 …Among the signs of hope we should also count the spread, at many levels of public opinion, of a new sensitivity ever more opposed to war as an instrument for the resolution of conflicts between peoples, and increasingly oriented to finding effective but “non-violent” means to counter the armed aggressor. In the same perspective there is evidence of a growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as a kind of “legitimate defence” on the part of society. Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitively denying them the chance to reform.

Another welcome sign is the growing attention being paid to the quality of life and to ecology, especially in more developed societies, where people’s expectations are no longer concentrated so much on problems of survival as on the search for an overall improvement of living conditions. Especially significant is the reawakening of an ethical reflection on issues affecting life. The emergence and ever more widespread development of bioethics is promoting more reflection and dialogue—between believers and non-believers, as well as between followers of different religions— on ethical problems, including fundamental issues pertaining to human life.
  1. This situation, with its lights and shadows, ought to make us all fully aware that we are facing an enormous and dramatic clash between good and evil, death and life, the “culture of death” and the “culture of life”. We find ourselves not only “faced with” but necessarily “in the midst of” this conflict: we are all involved and we all share in it, with the inescapable responsibility of choosing to be unconditionally pro-life.
Ok. I see “unconditionally pro-life.” And on that point there’s no disagreement. What I don’t see in your statement I quoted before was “on every level.” Nor do I see that implied. For if we are to be pro-life “on every level” than lethal self-defense or just war would be improper.

Indeed, JPII makes it clear that efforts to eliminate capital punishment are conditional upon current society. That is “[m]odern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless…” JPII even acknowledges in #55 the right of the state to utilized capital punishment (emphasis mine):
Moreover, “legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State”. Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.
Note too his acknowledgement that it is the aggressor that forfeits his life. It is not the taking of a life by another in defense of one’s life, the common good of the family, or of the State.

And he goes on in #56 (emphasis mine):
This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is “to redress the disorder caused by the offence”. Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated.

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.
Two points. First, JPII recognizes that the ‘primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offence’." Second, the opposition to the use of capital punishment is dependent upon “stead improvements in the organization of the penal system.” Both of which are exactly Ender’s point.

The use of capital punishment is one of prudential judgement, not morality. Of course, one’s judgement can be wrong. But like any other act, culpability is tempered by knowledge and cooperation. If one sincerely believes that capital punishment serves the common good of the family or of the State, and one acts in good faith, I suspect standing before God at the day of judgement will not be one to fear. Being mistaken is not the same thing as being evil.
 
Then I think you have to ask “why”. Why is the mere presence of the death penalty as an option, a very rarely used one, fueling a sense of being “divinely entitled” if the same thing wasn’t true for the first 1900+ years of the Church in the world? And can you prove that this is not at all related to the process of sentencing or the method of execution?
I really think Aquinas gives a most inspired and timeless example of the nature of the death penalty when he writes…

As stated above (Article 2), it is lawful to kill an evildoer in so far as it is directed to the welfare of the whole community, so that it belongs to him alone who has charge of the community’s welfare. Thus it belongs to a physician to cut off a decayed limb, when he has been entrusted with the care of the health of the whole body. Now the care of the common good is entrusted to persons of rank having public authority: wherefore they alone, and not private individuals, can lawfully put evildoers to death.

The example of the decayed limb amputated to prevent harm to the whole body can be seen in a different light today then in the middle ages. We have more effective and humane ways to treat infection now that don’t warrant amputation and as a doctor, the highest priority in treating a patient is to preserve the limbs as far as possible. This does not mean that our medical ancestors were more cruel or evil… its just the natural reflection of how our knowledge and understanding of the body and health has progressed over time. Our ethical principles are in fact bolstered by the treatments dealt out in the past even though they seem like opposite approaches without the proper context.
I don’t think anyone can honestly assert that the world’s devaluing of human life is solely due to the death penalty existing. And what do we replace it with? We do not, in the US at least, have a method that ensures the protection of others from convicted violent criminals in any foolproof way. We have more inmate killings than people put to death by the death penalty. To say that we are “ok” with criminals killing other criminals but we are not “ok” with legally convicted criminals of very grave crimes being humanely executed is not a stance that is any more valuing of human life.
The ‘culture of death’ is not caused by the death penalty but it finds an unwitting ally in it. It would be like having a policy of general vaccination which is a good measure in itself for combating disease… but then trying to apply that to someone who already has the disease. To vaccinate someone who already has the disease is likely to kill them! You have to have a firm grasp on the true nature of a vaccination policy in order for it to benefit society.
 
The Church doesn’t say that at all. In fact Pope Benedict stated that
While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
As you said in your above post, you have doubts about the specific conditions in the US penal system and I fully agree that you have the right to that opinion. I haven’t ever jumped into those arguments because I’m not a citizen and really don’t know the full story of the US experience.

What I’m addressing which I believe to be the Churchs motive for weighing in now on the issue after nearly a century of progressive abolition in the world… is the erroneous belief among some that the death penalty is a divine right justified primarily by a human duty to effect divine retribution on Gods behalf, separate from any duty to the common good. There is an argument that even if the common good is harmed by the practice, there is no moral imperative for the state to abolish it. That is wrong.
 
Time changes but truth does not. What was moral in the past is moral today; what the church said in the past is as valid today as it was then.*Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority.
*Ender
What is it with the citation-free quotes. Are you just making stuff up and pretending like it’s a quote from someone who has authority?

I don’t really care if there is a death penalty or not. I started out by pointing out that it was inconsistent NOT to call the death penalty, a “pro-life” issue.

If you want to have the death penalty, go ahead. If you don’t want to call it a “pro-life” issue than don’t.

If you want to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome, you will consider it a pro-life issue. If you don’t, go ahead and keep repeating the parts you want, and keep leaving out the parts you don’t.
 
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