Understanding islam?

[Reuben_J]

Well, here is his story: Why a Roman Catholic priest converted to Islam:
youtube.com/watch?v=FovAyMsGCro

There are many reasons as to why a person leaves his religion and probably the real reason is best known to him. There is no guarantee that a Catholic who is steeped in his faith will not convert to another religion. Personally I do not agree that such a person will not convert. But it is true also that the majority of those who leave and if you talk to them frankly, they seem to lack the correct knowledge of Catholicism.

Anyway, converting away from the religions is a two-way traffic and priests are not spared either. There are priests who leave the priesthood too. There are many reasons why a person takes up priesthood. Basically, in Catholicism it is a calling; not something as an escape route from an unfavorable experience in life.

What we know that priests who convert in that manner are very few and more of exceptions.

 

[Servant19]

Everything ranging from what can be inferred in the historical sense from the gospels regarding the resurrection to the testimony of Church fathers (who lived inside of living memory of the event) and extra biblical sources that speak of the history at that time.

So, I’m gauging that you have total faith in the historical value of Gospel, which has several historical inaccuracies. This is fine, as long as you are aware that the writers had the sustainablility of the Christian religion as a foremost priority, amongst a savage community of Jews and Gentiles, who leveraged large chunks of their belief systems on superstitions and myths, the more astounding and awe-inspiring, the better.
One has to also question why the station of John the Baptist is systematically downplayed as we read from the 1st to the 4th Gospel.

Secondly, by what basis do you trust the testimonies of the Church Fathers, many of whom never met Christ?

Thirdly, what extra-biblical sources are you referring to that provide verifiable history in relation to Jesus’ life?

The point here is not why I should be Christian. The point here is whether or not you can see that this is the reasonable way to determine whether to reject or accept a religion. Without answering that, you seem to want to discuss Christianity.

I see it as a reasonable way if it had just one non-Christian verification. Outside of Christian texts there is nothing about Jesus’ miracles and physical resurrection, nor of the several saints who were resurrected at the same time as Jesus’ resurrection. You’d think the Romans who were remarkably good record keepers would at least mention, just once, the fact that all these dead bodies had been resurrected?

Outside of any verification, I see your justification for the Divinity of Jesus as very theologically thin, and lacking depth. Jesus’ religion was so so so much more than any supernatural feats which were only witnessed by those who believed.

Is there no other analysis that can provide faith in Jesus?

Did Jesus say “those who believe in my miracles are my mothers, and brothers and sisters…”??

No, He said, “those who do the Will of God are my mother, and brother and sister…”

there is serious chasms in theological richness between the true statement and the one I made up for comparison…

 

[attybarker]

My first husband (the Church agreed with me about him and annulled the marriage after it was over), was Muslim. He had convinced me that Muslims are expected to respect “people of the book”, including Christians, Jews and Muslims… we are all monotheists and believe in one God, though we have given Him different names.

He cared about me, and wanted me to go to heaven with him when the time came, so he felt that I needed to convert, since in his view, Islam was the perfect and correct faith, and if someone had heard of Islam and failed to convert, they were potentially going to miss the opportunity to go to Heaven. So he worked at it. Because we were married and I was trying to respect his faith, I chose not to argue the points, but merely explained that I disagreed.

At some point, I had to explain to him that his repeated demands that I follow his faith, were disrespectful of my own strongly held beliefs, and by being disrespectful of my faith, he was not following his own religion’s principles. He eventually admitted that his intent, all along, was to convert me, because he believed I was smart enough to understand truth when I was exposed to it. I again explained that his time was wasted on that. That there were problems and issues with his own faith just as there were with mine. That all his claims that his own faith could be proven and therefore did not require “faith” to believe it, but rather was truth… were meaningless. I explained that I had the respect for his faith that I expected him to have for me and mine, which was to not spend/waste my time arguing that his beliefs were wrong.

I was not going to convert him, and he was not going to convert me, and arguing about the principles or issues in our faiths, pointing out instances where someone had perverted the intent of our faiths and done wrong things… trying to embarrass each other in an effort to force a conversion, were inappropriate. Not that a good, ol’ lively, Sophomoric discussion of philosophy isn’t fun from time to time, but we were committed to live in peace with each other so those kinds of arguments were not wise. They only bring difficulty in living together.

When the time came that it was clear to me that he had lied as a way of convincing me to marry him, it was easy to tell him that it was over (and equally easy to get the annulment).

My advice, after 5 years of living with it… in order to keep the peace with a person you have to live with, better to choose not to try to argue issues of faith. Better to just agree to peacefully co-exist, and not show disrespect for each other’s faith. You’re not going to convert him, and he’s not going to convert you… you have to be able to sleep comfortably in that room with him in a nearby bed, through a year, so it’s better not to do things that may result in difficult living. This is your home, keep the wars out of it. If, after the year is over and you’re no longer roommates, you enjoy each other’s company enough to be willing to get together at the local coffee shop and argue issues of faith, then go for it, but for now, just keep the peace and ask him to do the same.

To get to this point, the only point of Islam that you have to understand is that the Q’uran says that a Muslim needs to have respect for other People of the Book, which includes Catholics.

I would suggest that you have better things to do with your mental energy than to argue about whose faith is better or worse. Respect his time in prayer, and ask that he respect yours. But otherwise, don’t monopolize the room

 

[Jaberwocky]

So, I’m gauging that you have total faith in the historical value of Gospel, which has several historical inaccuracies. This is fine, as long as you are aware that the writers had the sustainablility of the Christian religion as a foremost priority, amongst a savage community of Jews and Gentiles, who leveraged large chunks of their belief systems on superstitions and myths, the more astounding and awe-inspiring, the better.
One has to also question why the station of John the Baptist is systematically downplayed as we read from the 1st to the 4th Gospel.

Secondly, by what basis do you trust the testimonies of the Church Fathers, many of whom never met Christ?

Thirdly, what extra-biblical sources are you referring to that provide verifiable history in relation to Jesus’ life?

I am not sure you are aware but the issues you raise are more often very old arguments. They have been addressed to satisfactory degree throughout the years and most scholars are coming back to hold the same position as that of the tradition of the Catholic Church on the matter. So if you really want to get in to historicity of the gospels (and what it actually means to say it is historical, because judging from what you write, you don’t seem to understand that what it means to say that an event is historical) you should start a new thread on that too.

But nothing I have said here presupposes that the gospels are historical. Irony here is that nothing I have said in my reply about Islam presupposes that even Christianity is true. Did you notice that?

I see it as a reasonable way if it had just one non-Christian verification. Outside of Christian texts there is nothing about Jesus’ miracles and physical resurrection, nor of the several saints who were resurrected at the same time as Jesus’ resurrection. You’d think the Romans who were remarkably good record keepers would at least mention, just once, the fact that all these dead bodies had been resurrected?

Outside of any verification, I see your justification for the Divinity of Jesus as very theologically thin, and lacking depth. Jesus’ religion was so so so much more than any supernatural feats which were only witnessed by those who believed.

Is there no other analysis that can provide faith in Jesus?

Did Jesus say “those who believe in my miracles are my mothers, and brothers and sisters…”??

No, He said, “those who do the Will of God are my mother, and brother and sister…”

there is serious chasms in theological richness between the true statement and the one I made up for comparison…

Maybe you are really just ignoring the central point here but do you realize that the rejection of Islam (everything I wrote in my post) has nothing to do with Christianity? If Christianity fails the same tests I proposed in my post on Islam, do you know what we should do? REJECT IT!

But since this is not a thread on Christianity, I fail to see why I should even defend it. All I am concerned about is defending what I said regarding Islam. Now unless you have an objection to the methodology I proposed, I fail to see what Christianity (which is just another religion in your eyes that must be tested using the same methodology) has anything to do with the merits or demerits of the methodology.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Well, here is his story: Why a Roman Catholic priest converted to Islam:
youtube.com/watch?v=FovAyMsGCro

Man doesn’t always use reason. This is why you have conversions to all sorts of things.

Unless the Priest has given an objective reason to verify the credibility of Muhammad as a Prophet, he just got duped.

 

[Servant19]

I am not sure you are aware but the issues you raise are more often very old arguments. They have been addressed to satisfactory degree throughout the years and most scholars are coming back to hold the same position as that of the tradition of the Catholic Church on the matter.

Can you please point me in the direction of which scholars you are talking about? Which university are they lecturing in?

Maybe you are really just ignoring the central point here but do you realize that the rejection of Islam (everything I wrote in my post) has nothing to do with Christianity? If Christianity fails the same tests I proposed in my post on Islam, do you know what we should do? REJECT IT!

But since this is not a thread on Christianity, I fail to see why I should even defend it. All I am concerned about is defending what I said regarding Islam. Now unless you have an objection to the methodology I proposed, I fail to see what Christianity (which is just another religion in your eyes that must be tested using the same methodology) has anything to do with the merits or demerits of the methodology.

If this is your “central point”:

So only reason to trust Mohammad is if there was any indication that he is a prophet. Only way to really say someone is a Prophet is by Miracles.

…then I propose you look at the miracles of Muhammad:

islamreligion.com/articles/151/
islamreligion.com/articles/152/

 

[jimkhong]

On the whole, I would avoid trying to counter his pro-Islamic statements. It’s pretty much a waste of time, since if he is automatically countering everything you say then he isn’t listening anyway.

You should simply tell him you’re a Catholic Christian and that if he wants to know what you believe you would be glad to tell him, but that you are not interested in debating the subject. If you’re awful at apologetics then you are going to have problems in any discussion with him.

Just avoid comparing/discussing religions. No one will EVER win that discussion.

Fully agree with you both.

CaptJalopy, this could be the opportunity to learn about your faith. If you feel strong enough, hear out his arguments and then refer to the knowledgeable or this forum for the answers. Even if you feel he is wrong, it may be good for you to know how to articulate your reply - not so much because you need to reply to him, but more to give form to your feelings about your faith.

 

[gabriel33]

I was a muslim.

Islam = Kuran + Hadis ( Muhammed Biografhy)

Basis of Islam is kuran and hadis. Many of muslim dont read kuran.

Worship to Allah and Jihad is important in islam.

Women are insignificant, worthless in islam.

Islam denominations hate other denomination islam. Sia hate sunni. Sunni hate sia.

Muslims hate Jews. Muslims hate other religion.

 

[TheSufi]

I was a muslim.

Islam = Kuran + Hadis ( Muhammed Biografhy)

Basis of Islam is kuran and hadis. Many of muslim dont read kuran.

Worship to Allah and Jihad is important in islam.

Women are insignificant, worthless in islam.

Islam denominations hate other denomination islam. Sia hate sunni. Sunni hate sia.

Muslims hate Jews. Muslims hate other religion.

Well, I don’t hate Christians, Jews or anybody for that matter. And I am Muslim who has read the Quran. In fact I love everybody.

Prophet Muhammad said, “None of you will believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

Imam Nawawi one of the great scholars of Islam, said, “Brothers here refer to both believers and non-believers.”

Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri said that the proof that “brothers” refers to both believers and non-believers is the Quranic verse, when God said, **“And to 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud.” ** And the people of Aad consisted of both believers and non-believers, to whom God sent the Prophet Hud.

And this is what I have been taught.

And God knows best.

 

[gabriel33]

Well, I don’t hate Christians, Jews or anybody for that matter. And I am Muslim who has read the Quran. In fact I love everybody.

Prophet Muhammad said, “None of you will believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

Imam Nawawi one of the great scholars of Islam, said, “Brothers here refer to both believers and non-believers.”

Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri said that the proof that “brothers” refers to both believers and non-believers is the Quranic verse, when God said, **“And to 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud.” ** And the people of Aad consisted of both believers and non-believers, to whom God sent the Prophet Hud.

And this is what I have been taught.

And God knows best.

where are you from ?

Kuran > Hadith ( muhammed biografhy )

Al-Mā’idah 51
51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

 

[Tomdstone]

Well, I don’t hate Christians, Jews or anybody for that matter. And I am Muslim who has read the Quran. In fact I love everybody.

Prophet Muhammad said, “None of you will believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

Imam Nawawi one of the great scholars of Islam, said, “Brothers here refer to both believers and non-believers.”

Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri said that the proof that “brothers” refers to both believers and non-believers is the Quranic verse, when God said, **“And to 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud.” ** And the people of Aad consisted of both believers and non-believers, to whom God sent the Prophet Hud.

And this is what I have been taught.

And God knows best.

Of course you are right. There are many good Muslims in the world today. And the recent Roman Catholic popes have said as much in their praise for the Islamic culture.

 

[TheSufi]

where are you from ?

Kuran > Hadith ( muhammed biografhy )

Al-Mā’idah 51
51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

America.

And there is nothing in that verse that says to hate non believers.

 

[Reuben_J]

America.

And there is nothing in that verse that says to hate non believers.

Yes, only just do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends.because they are only friends and protectors to each other. You are advised not to befriend them otherwise you will be like them. I guess that put them in a very bad light or at least the Quran thinks that the Muslims should not be like the Jews and Christians.

Al-Mā’idah 51
51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

 

[TheSufi]

Yes, only just do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends.because they are only friends and protectors to each other. You are advised not to befriend them otherwise you will be like them. I guess that put them in a very bad light or at least the Quran thinks that the Muslims should not be like the Jews and Christians.

Al-Mā’idah 51
51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

I have many Christian friends, which means you don’t understand that verse properly. I personally prefer to follow an Islamic understanding of that verse and not Reuben J’s incorrect understanding of that verse.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have many Christian friends, which means you don’t understand that verse properly. I personally prefer to follow an Islamic understanding of that verse and not Reuben J’s incorrect understanding of that verse.

Not wanting to burst your bubble, yes, it is true you have many Christian friends and perhaps Jewish too, but you do that despite what this Quran verse says. So that is another thing altogether.

And I really believe that Muslims have many friends who are non-Muslims. However there are so many Quran verses making generalization that Christians and Jews are not the right people for friends and coupling with the exhortation to alienate non-believers, and yes, to kill them in some situations, the Quran is giving too much scope for interpretation in both ways.

And from where do you get your teaching? What does your Imam tells you? So it depends pretty much on how the Imams interpret such verses. And from what we see today, there are pretty high percentage of the Imams who may not agree with you.

 

[TheSufi]

Not wanting to burst your bubble, yes, it is true you have many Christian friends and perhaps Jewish too, but you do that despite what this Quran verse says. So that is another thing altogether.

And I really believe that Muslims have many friends who are non-Muslims. However there are so many Quran verses making generalization that Christians and Jews are not the right people for friends and coupling with the exhortation to alienate non-believers, and yes, to kill them in some situations, the Quran is giving too much scope for interpretation in both ways.

And from where do you get your teaching? What does your Imam tells you? So it depends pretty much on how the Imams interpret such verses. And from what we see today, there are pretty high percentage of the Imams who may not agree with you.

So you are accusing Muslim of not following the Quran based on your ignorance of the Quran.

I really hate having discussions with you. Because you argue for the sake of arguing.

“There are pretty high percentage” ya da ya da… ya Ba da Ba do…, I’m like whatever dude.

I have studied Islam with several highly qualified Islamic scholars., maybe you can convince an ignorant Muslim of that garbage, but you can’t convince me.

Awilya doesn’t really mean friend… Wali does not mean Khalil… I once told a shaykh that people translate wali as Khalil "the Arabic word for friend, as we understand it in English, and he turned red… Because it doesn’t mean friend…

There are many ignorant imams in modern times. The are many people with a four year degree in Islamic studies and haven’t been through a complete book of fiqh. They haven’t studied a complete book of Hadith, haven’t learn proper
Tajwid of the Quran etc etc. and they make these people Imams.

And you can believe whatever you want. And I don’t really care if you believe awilya means friend. That’s between you and those ignorant imam.

And God Knows Best.

 

[Reuben_J]

So you are accusing Muslim of not following the Quran based on your ignorance of the Quran.

I really hate having discussions with you. Because you argue for the sake of arguing.

“There are pretty high percentage” ya da ya da… ya Ba da Ba do…, I’m like whatever dude.

I have studied Islam with several highly qualified Islamic scholars., maybe you can convince an ignorant Muslim of that garbage, but you can’t convince me.

Awilya doesn’t really mean friend… Wali does not mean Khalil… I once told a shaykh that people translate wali as Khalil "the Arabic word for friend, as we understand it in English, and he turned red… Because it doesn’t mean friend…

There are many ignorant imams in modern times. The are many people with a four year degree in Islamic studies and haven’t been through a complete book of fiqh. They haven’t studied a complete book of Hadith, haven’t learn proper
Tajwid of the Quran etc etc. and they make these people Imams.

And you can believe whatever you want. And I don’t really care if you believe awilya means friend. That’s between you and those ignorant imam.

And God Knows Best.

I know it is difficult to argue with me. But you did pretty well here by explaining the verse. I expected it is another one of those retorts where a Muslim poster would invariably pick up a Biblical verse and says, “You are not much better in this aspect.”

I can understand your defiance and the rant which is useless and not addressing the post but I grant you that considering how you believe the verse.

*Al-Mā’idah 51
51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
*
This verse is pretty obvious despite your apologetic and you are right too. But your fellow Muslims may not agree with you and by brushing them as ignorant will not help either. It is about the Quran verse, my friend, the Quran verse. Either you put a blind eye to it and see the positive side of it or you would interpret it literally. An Islamic purist would do the Quran justice by sometimes seeing it as it is written. So there you are.

At the most you have two sets of understanding of the verse and you, the Sufi, takes the high moral ground. Perhaps just perhaps. Whether yours is the right interpretation that is not for me to say. You have to argue it out with the ignorant Imams or indeed are they?

 

[dronald]

TheSufi, I think it would be helpful to just explain word for word what the passage means in order to crush the misunderstanding. Remember our “God is not a man” conversation? It took like 6 pages and two threads to explain that, but what I didn’t say was “you just don’t get it and I’m a Christian so I have a better understanding.”

 

[TheSufi]

TheSufi, I think it would be helpful to just explain word for word what the passage means in order to crush the misunderstanding. Remember our “God is not a man” conversation? It took like 6 pages and two threads to explain that, but what I didn’t say was “you just don’t get it and I’m a Christian so I have a better understanding.”

It is different. I am not Jewish, and I haven’t spent years studying Hebrew, the Old Testament, Jewish law, theology, and spirituality (Kabbalah). With Jewish beliefs I may
Be wrong or right. Because I don’t know, so I have to do research.

With Islam, without boosting, I know what is right and I know what is wrong, because I have already studied it.

Arguing that this or that is the obvious meaning. The obvious meaning to someone who hasn’t studied, who doesn’t know Arabic… Obvious to someone who is an ignoramus. I’m done with that dude… Perhaps it is better for him to be ignorant of Islam. Muslims won’t be deceived by his ignorance.

Peace…

 

[dronald]

It is different. I am not Jewish, and I haven’t spent years studying Hebrew, the Old Testament, Jewish law, theology, and spirituality (Kabbalah). With Jewish beliefs I may
Be wrong or right. Because I don’t know, so I have to do research.

With Islam, without boosting, I know what is right and I know what is wrong, because I have already studied it.

Arguing that this or that is the obvious meaning. The obvious meaning to someone who hasn’t studied, who doesn’t know Arabic… Obvious to someone who is an ignoramus. I’m done with that dude… Perhaps it is better for him to be ignorant of Islam. Muslims won’t be deceived by his ignorance.

Peace…

So how would you translate it into Arabic? Perhaps the passage really says “You should take unbelievers to be your friends so we can all be friends with eachother.” I’m not sure, and I would honestly trust you over someone who doesn’t know Arabic.

I just can imagine if I wanted to be friends with a Muslim and my Dad says to me, “Do not take the Muslims as friends because they are friends with eachother. Be friends with other Jews and Christians.” How else I would interpret that.