Understanding islam?

[TheSufi]

So how would you translate it into Arabic? Perhaps the passage really says “You should take unbelievers to be your friends so we can all be friends with eachother.” I’m not sure, and I would honestly trust you over someone who doesn’t know Arabic.

I just can imagine if I wanted to be friends with a Muslim and my Dad says to me, “Do not take the Muslims as friends because they are friends with eachother. Be friends with other Jews and Christians.” How else I would interpret that.

The problem is that there isn’t an English equavilent. Friend is probably the best English word for it, but it doesn’t really mean friend as we use it in English. Some have used the word protector. Again it doesn’t really mean protector either. Some have translated it as Ally. But it doesn’t mean that either.

If you don’t know a second language, it is probably beyond your scope of reason.

The second point, the verse is specific in meaning, because Muslims are allowed to marry Jews and Christians. It doesn’t refer to all Jews and Christians.

 

[dronald]

The problem is that there isn’t an English equavilent. Friend is probably the best English word for it, but it doesn’t really mean friend as we use it in English. Some have used the word protector. Again it doesn’t really mean protector either. Some have translated it as Ally. But it doesn’t mean that either.

If you don’t know a second language, it is probably beyond your scope of reason.

Alright, so I’m a Christian and in Islam I should be treated with respect, etc, etc. But what sort of conduct or actions should you take to obey this specific passage as a Muslim? Like, if you were to put this passage into practice as a Muslim who speaks Arabic, what would that mean for me as a Christian?

I think you’ve made it clear that you and I can be friends so it doesn’t mean that. And I’m sure Christians are allowed to protect Muslims so I don’t think you believe it means that either, but what would it mean for you to me as two people of separate beliefs? What sort of limitation should be put on me as a Christian in relation to this passage?

The second point, the verse is specific in meaning, because Muslims are allowed to marry Jews and Christians. It doesn’t refer to all Jews and Christians.

Idk if this is true but I have heard that Muslim women can not marry Christian men. Is this true or is it okay either way?

 

[TheSufi]

Alright, so I’m a Christian and in Islam I should be treated with respect, etc, etc. But what sort of conduct or actions should you take to obey this specific passage as a Muslim? Like, if you were to put this passage into practice as a Muslim who speaks Arabic, what would that mean for me as a Christian?

I think you’ve made it clear that you and I can be friends so it doesn’t mean that. And I’m sure Christians are allowed to protect Muslims so I don’t think you believe it means that either, but what would it mean for you to me as two people of separate beliefs? What sort of limitation should be put on me as a Christian in relation to this passage?

It not just knowing arabic, but also know why the verse was revealed, and its intent.

From one perspective the verse doesn’t apply to you at all. But again, it could apply to you, considering that you actively write against Islam. You appear to be an active enemy of Islam, whose intent is to belittle Islam and its message. And God knows best.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Hey there guys!

So my new roommate is Islamic and tends to lean our conversations back to islam and sort of throws out stuff as to why islam is more true that other religions, and any time I make a statement about Catholicism he refutes with something saying that his faith is superior. If this is going to continue, I want to be able to argue apologetics on a strong foundation, which is something I am absolutely awful at. As of late, I’ve been trying to read up on Islam to get a bit of an understanding about the differences between islamic and Catholic theology, but so far what I’ve found is more or less people making labels at each other rather than actually giving sound arguments as to why their religion is the true one. Do you guys have any suggestions for articles or research regarding this kind of stuff? What are your opinions on the matter?

You must cover yourself in peace and tranquility. Do the basic Catholic things really, really well:

-Pray the Rosary everyday
-Make the sign of the cross and pray before meals…any meal-even if it’s a Snickers bar.
-Keep a Catholic calendar on your wall with the holy days of obligation marked on it with highlighter.
-Go to mass without fail and participate of the Sacraments of Confession and Communion.

In essence, be the Catholic that we all should be without apologies. If asked what you are- say that you are Catholic! Catholics are the original Christians!!

-Know your faith in simple, easy to remember terms and stick with your answers.

You are where the Lord wants you to be. Be Catholic-Be an Obvious Catholic.

 

[dronald]

It not just knowing arabic, but also know why the verse was revealed, and its intent.

From one perspective the verse doesn’t apply to you at all. But again, it could apply to you, considering that you actively write against Islam. You appear to be an active enemy of Islam, whose intent is to belittle Islam and its message. And God knows best.

God certainly does know best, and I’m sure he wants his followers to understand what has been revealed. So is that your official explanation, that this passage is only for, “enemies of Islam”? Which I am not at all.

Ask many of the Catholics here and you’ll find that I am the same towards them, I question until I find a reasonable explanation. The only problem is that there aren’t many Muslims on this forum, otherwise I could get a better explanation. I have searched the web and I don’t find anything that makes sense to me when I read, “don’t be friends with Christians.”

I don’t think any Catholics here have called me an, “Enemy of Catholicism.” Even though I argue Catholic beliefs far more than Islamic beliefs. Although, arguing Catholicism is extremely hard imo… There’s basically an answer for every objection. Not like with Islam… Except, “Allah knows best!”

 

[judynurse]

To The Sufi:

I have a question I’ve wondered about for over 50 years, and I think a Muslim can answer it for me. When I was in college, I taught English to Iranians. In return, they taught me Farsi. I actually became very proficient in Farsi, and my accent was of southern Iran although I originally learned from those from the Capital City of Iran. I remember they taught me a few sentences in Arabic from the Qur’an. I remember that the last line of a prayer in Arabic which they taught me was: (excuse the spelling - it’s phonetic in English) “Ali vali i’llah”. Is the original difference between Sufi and Sunni due to who was to lead the Muslims after the death of Muhammed? One of whom was “Ali”, whom I believe was his nephew? And what does this line mean? The first two lines refer to the greatness of God, (Allah), the second line refers to Muhammed (“Muhammed rasul i’illah”), which I thought referred to Muhammed’s position as a Prophet, according to Muslim belief. I thought the third line might refer to his nephew(?) who was to follow him. I’m not sure whether the Iranians are Sufi or Sunni, but I think they are Sunni. Can you explain this to me, please. I’m not intending to be argumentative, but have wondered about this for decades!

 

[TheSufi]

God certainly does know best, and I’m sure he wants his followers to understand what has been revealed. So is that your official explanation, that this passage is only for, “enemies of Islam”? Which I am not at all.

Ask many of the Catholics here and you’ll find that I am the same towards them, I question until I find a reasonable explanation. The only problem is that there aren’t many Muslims on this forum, otherwise I could get a better explanation. I have searched the web and I don’t find anything that makes sense to me when I read, “don’t be friends with Christians.”

I don’t think any Catholics here have called me an, “Enemy of Catholicism.” Even though I argue Catholic beliefs far more than Islamic beliefs. Although, arguing Catholicism is extremely hard imo… There’s basically an answer for every objection. Not like with Islam… Except, “Allah knows best!”

Let me put it to you in this way. For the most part, I don’t believe the verse is applicable in my life, and I live in America. The verse is situational, and I am not in that situation. It definitely refers to enemies of Islam, and it could refer to less than that, depending on the situation (and don’t even ask about the particulars).

It could not refer to Christians in general, because Muslims are allowed to marry Christians, and Prophet Muhammad, sent his companions, to the Ethiopian King, who was Christian. And Prophet Muhammad’s companions took the Ethiopian King as their “wali (Friend).”

And God knows best.

 

[TheSufi]

To The Sufi:

I have a question I’ve wondered about for over 50 years, and I think a Muslim can answer it for me. When I was in college, I taught English to Iranians. In return, they taught me Farsi. I actually became very proficient in Farsi, and my accent was of southern Iran although I originally learned from those from the Capital City of Iran. I remember they taught me a few sentences in Arabic from the Qur’an. I remember that the last line of a prayer in Arabic which they taught me was: (excuse the spelling - it’s phonetic in English) “Ali vali i’llah”. Is the original difference between Sufi and Sunni due to who was to lead the Muslims after the death of Muhammed? One of whom was “Ali”, whom I believe was his nephew? And what does this line mean? The first two lines refer to the greatness of God, (Allah), the second line refers to Muhammed (“Muhammed rasul i’illah”), which I thought referred to Muhammed’s position as a Prophet, according to Muslim belief. I thought the third line might refer to his nephew(?) who was to follow him. I’m not sure whether the Iranians are Sufi or Sunni, but I think they are Sunni. Can you explain this to me, please. I’m not intending to be argumentative, but have wondered about this for decades!

Iranians generally speaking are Shia.

I am Sunni, refer to their spiritual tradition as Sufism.
Sunni believe the successor of Prophet Muhammad was

1. Abu Bakr,
2. Umar,
3. Uthman and
4. Ali, in that order.

The Shia believe

1. Ali was the rightful first successor of Prophet Muhammad.

And God knows best.

 

[dronald]

Let me put it to you in this way. For the most part, I don’t believe the verse is applicable in my life, and I live in America. The verse is situational, and I am not in that situation. It definitely refers to enemies of Islam, and it could refer to less than that, depending on the situation (and don’t even ask about the particulars).

It could not refer to Christians in general, because Muslims are allowed to marry Christians, and Prophet Muhammad, sent his companions, to the Ethiopian King, who was Christian. And Prophet Muhammad’s companions took the Ethiopian King as their “wali (Friend).”

And God knows best.

Thanks for the reply.

Can a Muslim woman marry a Christian man? I heard they can’t once.

 

[judynurse]

Thank you “The Sufi”. Does that line in the Arabic prayer refer to Ali as the Successor of Muhammed? That would explain why they taught me that one, if they were Shia. I’ve forgotten most of the Farsi I learned so long ago, but I do remember clearly that they wouldn’t teach me Farsi unless I could say “Khelli, khelli khoub” correctly in Farsi, which oddly enough I did correctly on the first try! (In Farsi it translates to English as “Very, very good”. It seems to be very difficult for most Americans to pronounce! I also learned a song, which I only remember a few lines of, although I remember the melody, which was called “Dokhderi Zebah”, meaning “Beautiful Girl”. It was very pretty, and I enjoyed singing it!

Too bad I lost my Farsi over these decades, although I still remember a few words, and also understand a few words of Arabic still. With no one to practice with after college, it faded away. I thought Farsi was a beautiful language. Over the years I learned 7 languages, but now only know (well) my ("milk tongue, i.e., English) and enough Spanish to get by.

Thanks for your response!

 

[TheSufi]

Thanks for the reply.

Can a Muslim woman marry a Christian man? I heard they can’t once.

I think you know the answer to that, I don’t have time for silly questions.

 

[jimkhong]

I’m not sure whether the Iranians are Sufi or Sunni, but I think they are Sunni.

If you don’t mind a non-Sufi giving a non-religious angle to this. Whatever you do, do not refer to Arabs and Iranians incorrectly, religion-wise. There is a long history of bad blood between Sunnis and Shias, which while ostensibly is due to theological difference, but is really an ethnic/nationalistic difference.

Iranians are almost all Shias while Arabs are generally Sunnis, except in Iraq (60% Shias), Lebanon (don’t really know but could be as much as 40% Shias), the Gulf states like Qatar and Bahrain (rulers are Sunnis but Shia majority). Most of the rest of the Muslim world is Sunni (with exception of parts of Afganistan and Central Asia). Many Sunni Arabs are quite virulently against Iranians, to the point that I find irrational and consipracy theory-laden. The hatred some Sunni Arabs have for Shia Iranians contrast greatly with their willingness to accomodate Christians.

Similar in a way with the Catholic-Protestant wars in Ireland, or the Catholic-Orthodox wars between the Croats and the Serbs. Just as we recognise that those wars do not reflect religious teachings of Christianity, even if some religious leaders may advocate war in the name of the Church. In a similar way, political leaders through the ages have abused the name of Islam to pursue their political aims, as Al Queda does today.

 

[TheSufi]

Thank you “The Sufi”. Does that line in the Arabic prayer refer to Ali as the Successor of Muhammed? That would explain why they taught me that one, if they were Shia. I’ve forgotten most of the Farsi I learned so long ago, but I do remember clearly that they wouldn’t teach me Farsi unless I could say “Khelli, khelli khoub” correctly in Farsi, which oddly enough I did correctly on the first try! (In Farsi it translates to English as “Very, very good”. It seems to be very difficult for most Americans to pronounce! I also learned a song, which I only remember a few lines of, although I remember the melody, which was called “Dokhderi Zebah”, meaning “Beautiful Girl”. It was very pretty, and I enjoyed singing it!

Too bad I lost my Farsi over these decades, although I still remember a few words, and also understand a few words of Arabic still. With no one to practice with after college, it faded away. I thought Farsi was a beautiful language. Over the years I learned 7 languages, but now only know (well) my ("milk tongue, i.e., English) and enough Spanish to get by.

Thanks for your response!

“Ali vali i’llah”. There is no “V” in Arabic. It could be Ali Wali illah. “Ali the Friend of God.” And God knows best.

 

[judynurse]

Thank you for the geographical lesson! I did not realize the way the Sufi/Sunni groups were distributed. However, when I was in college, the students I taught English to from Iran, were not particularly religious, at that time, came from the “upper class” of that time (1960 - 1964) and the Shah was still ruling then. The way I taught them English was to start speaking to them in French (which I was taking in college), and which they all knew, as they had spent vacations with their families in France and Sweden, usually to go skiing. Several of them returned to Iran, two of them with Christian (American) wives, just shortly prior to the Shah having to leave Iran, and then dying (I believe of cancer). Often wonder what happened to them (and their wives!)

Those who had not graduated when the country became radically religious after the Shah left, obtained permits to remain in America, or went to Europe. Having been educated in the U.S., I think they’d have a very hard time if they returned home, especially with an American, Christian wife. One of them married a Catholic girl and took her and their newborn son back to Iran with him, as he was very concerned for his family back home.

I know Iran is not popular with most people, including the Arab peoples, but I thought they were very nice – at that time!! Now, I wouldn’t go there!

 

[jimkhong]

I know Iran is not popular with most people, including the Arab peoples, but I thought they were very nice – at that time!! Now, I wouldn’t go there!

Oh no!! They are actually very nice people. Once they get past seeing the label on you. Once they get past seeing you as a Christian, or Sunni, or Jew and know you as a person, most of them are very nice. The more traditional Muslim societies have very strict rules about welcoming & protecting guests and hospitality. Really!

I hope I have not frightened you off but I think it will be good to continue to interact with Arabs and Iraninans at that personal level. It is only people without friends who would go to war.

Politics aside, I think you would be welcomed in most Arab and Iranian countries. Americans may find difficulties with their governments if not with the ordinary people, largely due to perceived American domination and support for Israel.

 

[judynurse]

to jimkhong: Yes, I’m very aware of the hatred between the Sufi and Sunni. Saw a lot of it on TV in Iraq. I don’t confuse Arabs and Iranians, however. The Iranians I knew in the '60’s were very proud of their people, and insisted they were NOT Arabs, so I knew that even back then. I was not aware, until the U.S. went into Iraq of the very bad feelings between Sufi and Sunni, but it certainly became clear then!

Thanks again for the lesson in the basic geography of the distribution of Sufi and Sunni. I wasn’t aware of this.

I thought they were very nice too! There was one student there, who, although he came from Iran, had Turkish grandparents, and the others weren’t very nice to him, as a rule, because of his “mixed” heritage. I thought he was o.k., but he did have a bad temper, possibly due to being treated badly by the people in his hometown, which was in Iran. His grandparents (on his father’s side) had immigrated to Iran under the Shah. However, he was always very polite to me, just not very friendly around other Iranians.

I did learn about the Laws of Hospitality, which are ancient, and especially in the Middle East. Doesn’t mean that they won’t come after you AFTER you leave their home or tent. Once they have given you “bread & salt” you are protected very carefully for a period of time, due to these ancient laws of hospitality.

 

[jimkhong]

Thanks for the reply.

Can a Muslim woman marry a Christian man? I heard they can’t once.

Sunni Islam does not have a central government like Catholicsm or even Lutheranism, WCC, etc. The closest model we can apply is probably the Congregationalist model. Therefore, it is difficult to assume a common Islamic law throughout the Muslim world. Shia Islam is different, though.

There are four main school of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence on which different versions of Sharia can be based, and within those schools of jurisprudence, there are further strands. Furthermore, Islam is supposedly a theocracy and the head of state is the head of religion. This is very clear in the constitutions of countries with Muslim monarchs. As a result, application of Sharia can also differ within the same country at different times depending on the politics.

In my country (60% of population are Sunnis, Shias are persecuted), there are nine royal families each running their own state, there are nine versions of the Sharia law (differences are minor). Depending on the state law, a woman may or may not need to convert on marrying a Muslim man, but the children must be brought up Muslim (sounds familiar to Catholics, doesn’t it). Men marrying Muslim women must convert as the head of a Muslim household must be Muslim.

One of our past Deputy Prime Minister married a Catholic, who remained Catholic but the children were Muslim. Though I believe the marriage was not solemnised domestically and she was Argentine. They have since divorced. In today’s more poisoned political atmosphere, it is almost inconceivable for a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim without converting, even if allowed by that state’s Sharia Law, more so a politician.

Sorry if it is complicated, but they really do not have a single uniform Canon Law.

 

[jimkhong]

It is very nice to see people making friends accross divides.

I was not aware, until the U.S. went into Iraq of the very bad feelings between Sufi and Sunni, but it certainly became clear then!

Just one correction here, if you don’t mind. I think you mean between Shias and Sunnis.

Sufi is a contemplative strand of Islam. They originate from and are generally classified as Sunnis though they normally see themselves as transcending politics and the Sunni-Shia divide. Sufism was very influenced by Coptic monks who converted after the Arab conquests, hence the love for contemplation and mysticism.

Due to their emphasis on the more mystical aspects of God, rather than the doctrinal aspects of the faith and as such, they are more open to other religions.

If I am not mistaken, the mosque proposed for Ground Zero is a Sufi mosque. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are probably the most commonly known Sufis.

Or maybe you are already aware. If so, forgive my assumptions.

 

[attybarker]

I have many Christian friends, which means you don’t understand that verse properly. I personally prefer to follow an Islamic understanding of that verse and not Reuben J’s incorrect understanding of that verse.

The problem with this whole discussion is that while we could provide many quotes of Islamic scholars as well as directly from the Quran, that Muslims should not be violent, should befriend and respect other faiths… there are many Muslims who have studied and believe differently, who have interpreted those same quotes in a way that suggests they should be struggling against Christians.

I understand one meaning of Jihad is “struggle”. This can be the internal struggle to follow or understand one’s own faith, or it can be (as many these days have interpreted it), “holy war”… or rather, it’s read to endorse violence in the effort to convert others.

Our Catholic faith pushed through a time in history when we also felt it was important to evangalize the world, by force if necessary. Even though the Crusades were over 700 years ago, we still find ourselves acting apologetically over them. Non-Catholics during the 12th and 13th centuries who encountered a well-intentioned but crusading Catholic neighbor who argued every point they tried to make during an innocent conversation, would have been well-advised to not discuss religion with the neighbor, just to keep peace in the neighborhood.

People who believe their faith justifies treating other people disrespectfully are mistaken, but it’s nearly impossible to change their belief. The bigger their transgressions against others, the more tightly they must hold onto these mistaken beliefs, because to do otherwise would be to admit to serious transgressions (and in many cases, atrocities against mankind). Once they’ve taken a violent action, they are caught, and cannot easily change their belief system.

It does not matter how many Muslims weigh in with quotes about how nice Muslims are and how much they respect other faiths… if the particular Muslim that the originator of this thread has to live with happens to be disrespectful and argumentative, there is no point to trying to argue his faith with him, no point in trying to justify our faith to him, no point in discussing faith at all unless the originator of this thread is prepared for an uncomfortable atmosphere in the room.

 

[Servant19]

Thank you “The Sufi”. Does that line in the Arabic prayer refer to Ali as the Successor of Muhammed? That would explain why they taught me that one, if they were Shia. I’ve forgotten most of the Farsi I learned so long ago, but I do remember clearly that they wouldn’t teach me Farsi unless I could say “Khelli, khelli khoub” correctly in Farsi, which oddly enough I did correctly on the first try! (In Farsi it translates to English as “Very, very good”. It seems to be very difficult for most Americans to pronounce! I also learned a song, which I only remember a few lines of, although I remember the melody, which was called “Dokhderi Zebah”, meaning “Beautiful Girl”. It was very pretty, and I enjoyed singing it!

Too bad I lost my Farsi over these decades, although I still remember a few words, and also understand a few words of Arabic still. With no one to practice with after college, it faded away. I thought Farsi was a beautiful language. Over the years I learned 7 languages, but now only know (well) my ("milk tongue, i.e., English) and enough Spanish to get by.

Thanks for your response!

Dearest Judy, what wonderful stories you share!!

Let it be known to you once and for all that should you wish to revisit your Farsi language skills, I would take great delight in being your humble servant!

God bless you!