Understanding Islamic Views

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After carefully reading the posts to develop a better understanding of the Islamic point of view, it appears to come down to one knot. Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt only because Mohammed said so, that’s their only source.

Are there any historical or archeological evidence to prove the Bible has been changed?

They generally believe although the Bible is corrupt it still contains some fragments of truth. This is hard to believe because the style of writing, choice of words etc. remain constant throughout according to the Gospel writer. There is no evidence to suggest any of the Gospels have been tampered with…

God bless,
The Bible itself contains verses that suggest attempts to distort truth.
How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD”, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jer 8:8)

Precious things are seldom available in pure form: gold, silver, diamond. They are mined and separated from the muck that surrounds them. However, you will find sand abundantly without the need to clean it or separate it from other things.

The Word of God is most precious; we have to ponder over scripture texts and receive the truth by the help of God’s Spirit.

Salvation is all about separating light from darkness and segregating the sheep and the goats.

The jews believed that divorce was fine with God and quoted Mosaic laws. Our Lord gently and most effectively established the truth by recalling the originally good creation of God and clearly pointing out the corruption brought about by hard hearted humans who forcibly obtained from Moses what they wanted.
 
After carefully reading the posts to develop a better understanding of the Islamic point of view, it appears to come down to one knot. Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt only because Mohammed said so, that’s their only source.
although it’s enough for us that quran said that , but actually i never used quran verses to convince you that your bible corrupted
i don’t know how your carfully reading dosn’t see all what i quoted from christianity scholars writings
Are there any historical or archeological evidence to prove the Bible has been changed?
answering-christianity.com/CNN_Bible_July_2009.pdf

Commenting in his (Harold Liedner) 1999 book The Fabrication of the Christ Myth on the well-known Gospel story of the Gadarene swine, which rushed down a steep cliff and were drowned in the Sea of Galilee, the Jewish scholar Joseph Leidner points out that because Gadera is actually several kilometers away from the sea, the whole incident is evidence of either ignorance or total lack of concern with veridical history. Citing other similar examples, he writes, “From the evidence…**the blunt conclusion emerges that the Gospel writers did not know the geography and customs of the Holy Land, and did not know Judaism itself. **They were working with source material having nothing to do with historical data of any kind. (ibid, p. 163)

Though Luke 1:5 dates the birth of Jesus in the “days of Herod, King of Judea,” who died in 4 B.C., he wants the journey from Galilee to Bethlehem to have occurred in response to a census called when “Quirinius was governor of Syria.” As historians know, “the one and only census conducted while Quirinius was legate in Syria affected only Judaea, not Galilee, and took place in A.D. 6-7, a good ten years after the death of Herod the Great.” In his anxiety to relate the Galilean upbringing with the supposed Bethlehem birth, Luke confused his facts. Indeed, Luke’s anxiety has involved him in some real absurdities, like the needless ninety mile journey of a woman in her last days of pregnancy - for it was the Davidic Joseph who supposedly had to be registered in the ancestral village, not the Levitical Mary. Worse yet, Luke has been forced to contrive a universal dislocation for a simple tax registration: who could imagine the efficient Romans requiring millions in the empire to journey scores of hundreds of miles to the villages of millennium-old ancestors merely to sign a tax from! Needless to say, no such event ever happened in the history of the Roman empire, but Micah 5:2 must be fulfilled. (Randel Helms, Gospel Fictions, pp. 59-60)

“…Luke tells how a decree went out from Augustus that “all the world should be registered”. The trouble is that there is absolutely no trace—in a well document period—of such a decree. It’s simply a means of getting Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem for theological reasons. The messiah had to be of Davidic descent, and thus from Bethlehem. Luke says the birth occurred while Quirinius was governor of Syria. That means it could not have happened before 6 C.E., the year we know he took office. At the same time, Matthew says Jesus was conceived while Herod the Great was in power in Judea. But Herod died in 4 B.C.E.! The authors of The Jesus Mysteries point out that Mary’s real miracle, if both references are taken genuinely, was “a 10-year pregnancy”. For Matthew, Jesus’ hometown was Bethlehem. For Luke, it was Nazareth. (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, pp. 125-126)

Examining Peter’s Christ-confession at Caesarea Philippi and the way it was presented by each Gospel writer enables us to see immediately that the Gospels are not biographies meant to be read as linear history. They are midrashic interpretations. Midrash is a way to incorporate timelessness into a sacred narrative.
(John Shelby Spong, Resurrection: Myth or Reality? p. 133)

well , i can quote many of things like that
i didn’t study those things myself , have no experience to do that , but my point is that those people didn’t depend on quran un thier studies
 
Elwill, you got to be careful. Liedner doesn’t believe Jesus existed.

Meanwhile John Shelby Spong is a Christian (Episcopalian).

MJ
 
The Bible itself contains verses that suggest attempts to distort truth.
How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD”, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jer 8:8)

Precious things are seldom available in pure form: gold, silver, diamond. They are mined and separated from the muck that surrounds them. However, you will find sand abundantly without the need to clean it or separate it from other things.

The Word of God is most precious; we have to ponder over scripture texts and receive the truth by the help of God’s Spirit.

Salvation is all about separating light from darkness and segregating the sheep and the goats.

The jews believed that divorce was fine with God and quoted Mosaic laws. Our Lord gently and most effectively established the truth by recalling the originally good creation of God and clearly pointing out the corruption brought about by hard hearted humans who forcibly obtained from Moses what they wanted.
The catholic church is led by God’s Spirit. Many muslims and hindus have personally testified to me saying, they experienced (could actually feel) God’s presence only in a catholic church.

Scripture is only an aid; it’s accuracy or shortcoming is not an issue for God’s people who depend on His Spirit.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. (John 14:16-18)
 
OK - I’m trying to understand you Elwill…

Lets start from the beginning… you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill
**let us agree with somthing , the injill from point of view of islam is the gospel which was preached by jesus (pbuh) directly not the history and records and openions of human which were authored about his his after his departure
when i read in the gospel records happened after his death , then it will means to me that it’s not pure gospele of jesus , it contains the teaching of jesus within it but it was mixed with external views and external records which jesus never preach **. … snip …
& I wrote back to you…::
**Bold statement you made right there - care to back it up …!!!
If it wasn’t the “pure Gospel of Jesus”, The Apostles would have not laid down and died for a hoax they created. **
Up on top, you are talking about Jesus & the Gospels and that you feel that that was NOT what Jesus preached… and I ask you to back it up, INSTEAD you go to Moses (et al)…
“So Moses… DIED… and he (God Almighty) BURIED HIM (Moses)… He was 120 years old WHEN HE DIED… and there arose not a prophet SINCE in Israel like unto Moses…(Deuteronomy 34:5-10)”

Did Moses write his own obituary? Similarly, Joshua too speaks in detail about his own death in Joshua 24:29-33.

“And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, DIED, … And they BURIED HIM … And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel ….(Joshua 24:29-33)”

Let us have a slightly more detailed look at only one book of the New Testament, that of ‘Hebrews’:

“The author of the Book of Hebrews is unknown. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author…Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas…Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla (or Prisca). William Ramsey suggested that it was done by Philip. However, the traditional position is that the Apostle Paul wrote Hebrews…Eusebius believed that Paul wrote it, but Origen was not positive of Pauline authorship.”

From the introduction to the King James Bible, New revised and updated sixth edition, the Hebrew/Greek Key Study, Red Letter Edition

and one book of the Old Testament:

“In tradition, [David] is credited with writing 73 of the Psalms; **most scholars, however, consider this claim questionable.” **

Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

In the book “The Story of the Manuscripts” by Rev. George E. Merrill, the good Reverend quotes Prof. Arnold as stating:
“there are not more than fifteen hundred to two thousand places in which there is any uncertainty whatever as to the true text…”
Why are you muslims hung up about books that were written 6000 years ago.

So what… Moses died & his written story is continued by others- so what Joshua dies & his written story is continued by others… SO WHAT…!!! 6000 YEARS OLD!

And if you study Hebrews well… you will know Saint Paul wrote them.

Hebrews - chapter 10
#11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.


This one passage right here while priests are doing sacrifices tells us that the Temple was NOT yet destroyed because priests are still doing their job.

So, this means it was written before 70AD.

There are more key verses but I’ll stop because once again you have managed to DE-RAIL another thread with the “corrupted” Bible and your hatred against Saint Paul and I entertained you…
 
OK - I’m trying to understand you Elwill…

Lets start from the beginning… you wrote:

& I wrote back to you…::

Up on top, you are talking about Jesus & the Gospels and that you feel that that was NOT what Jesus preached… and I ask you to back it up, INSTEAD you go to Moses (et al)…

Why are you muslims hung up about books that were written 6000 years ago.

So what… Moses died & his written story is continued by others- so what Joshua dies & his written story is continued by others… SO WHAT…!!! 6000 YEARS OLD!

And if you study Hebrews well… you will know Saint Paul wrote them.

Hebrews - chapter 10
#11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.


This one passage right here while priests are doing sacrifices tells us that the Temple was NOT yet destroyed because priests are still doing their job.

So, this means it was written before 70AD.

There are more key verses but I’ll stop because once again you have managed to DE-RAIL another thread with the “corrupted” Bible and your hatred against Saint Paul and I entertained you…
My friend, it is evident by ElWill’s stubborn attitude that he is not listening. Of course, Muslims hate it when you bring St. Paul into a debate, they foam in the mouth just like Muhammed when he saw crosses and of course, the Imams who foam and go nuts when they see a Bible and hear any quote from it. Of course, this is a Egyptian Muslim who probably enjoys engaging in debates with Copts in Egypt, to the point of being a radical and persecutting them. Muslims deny historical events that prove that the events of the Bible happened. Just because a magic book of desert fables written by some pedophiliac man who claimed to be a “Prophet” does not prove the so called “Corruption” of the Bible. Muslims have this drilled since their religion began, its drilled to their heads. They have no proof of the so called “Corruption”. With no evidence and the answers asked: “Who corrupted the Bible? When? What year?” They cannot answer these questions because there is no evidence to back up their claims.
 
My friend, it is evident by ElWill’s stubborn attitude that he is not listening. Of course, Muslims hate it when you bring St. Paul into a debate, they foam in the mouth just like Muhammed when he saw crosses and of course, the Imams who foam and go nuts when they see a Bible and hear any quote from it. Of course, this is a Egyptian Muslim who probably enjoys engaging in debates with Copts in Egypt, to the point of being a radical and persecutting them. Muslims deny historical events that prove that the events of the Bible happened. Just because a magic book of desert fables written by some pedophiliac man who claimed to be a “Prophet” does not prove the so called “Corruption” of the Bible. Muslims have this drilled since their religion began, its drilled to their heads. They have no proof of the so called “Corruption”. With no evidence and the answers asked: “Who corrupted the Bible? When? What year?” They cannot answer these questions because there is no evidence to back up their claims.
Another point of view is that it is in fact Muhammad that had deliberately taken and corrupted the bible to be the source for his Koran. After reading from the book “prophet of doom”, prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Print.Islam I understand it better that Muhammad had changed many characters of the OT from Adam to Jesus only to have similar/resemblance character with Muhammad, preaching the same message, experiencing the same opposition and having the same wish of killing and wiping off the infidel…how convenient of Muhammad!
 
although it’s enough for us that quran said that , but actually i never used quran verses to convince you that your bible corrupted
Have a look at the evidence. Here are some ancient manuscripts:

Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts)
Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26) 50-60 AD
John Rylands (John) 130 AD
Bodmer Papyrus II (John) 150-200 AD
Chester Beatty Papyri (N.T.) 200 AD
Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) 200 AD
Codex Vaticanus (Bible) 325-350 AD
Codex Sinaiticus (Bible) 350 AD
Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) 400 AD

We have the Magdalene manuscript that was written around the same time the Gospel of Matthew was written. The writings are identical. Not mention we also have over 5,000 manuscripts written in Greek (same language as the original) and over 24,000 manuscripts in foreign languages. The early Church Fathers have quoted the New Testament over 32,000 times prior to A.D. 325.

All of these writings are identical to the present Bible we have today.

The problem with those that accuse the Bible had been changed is that they don’t know when, where and by whom specifically it was changed.

Elwill do you know when it was changed and by whom?

God bless,
 
According to the below verse the Bible was originally sent down by God himself. How was it then corrupted by the original writers such as St Paul? That would mean the original Bible itself was corrupt and hence leads to my confusion as to how it was originally from God…

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).” Surah 3:3

Basically I guess what I’m asking is if God is the original author of the Bible through the instrumentality of the writers. How could the instruments (writers) be deceitful at the same time?

God bless,
As long as you are not a muslim, they will always claim that you don’t understand Islamic views as soon as there is a different idea about a given subject being discussed. Depending on which branch of Islam that your discussion partner came from, you can immediately proclaimed as Kafir once you are in a disagreement with them.
 
Have a look at the evidence. Here are some ancient manuscripts:

Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts)
Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26) 50-60 AD
John Rylands (John) 130 AD
Bodmer Papyrus II (John) 150-200 AD
Chester Beatty Papyri (N.T.) 200 AD
Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) 200 AD
Codex Vaticanus (Bible) 325-350 AD
Codex Sinaiticus (Bible) 350 AD
Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) 400 AD

We have the Magdalene manuscript that was written around the same time the Gospel of Matthew was written. The writings are identical. Not mention we also have over 5,000 manuscripts written in Greek (same language as the original) and over 24,000 manuscripts in foreign languages. The early Church Fathers have quoted the New Testament over 32,000 times prior to A.D. 325.

All of these writings are identical to the present Bible we have today.

The problem with those that accuse the Bible had been changed is that they don’t know when, where and by whom specifically it was changed.

Elwill do you know when it was changed and by whom?

God bless,
“Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. **They are absent from important early manuscripts **and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)”

brief and direct question , can i consider bible foot notes as a lie ?

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=NIV;
can i consider this comment in this site as a lie either :confused:

which versions of the bible which you assume to be identical with manuscripts , you know that the versions of the bibles existed today are not identical with each others , so that i found complexty to determine what you are talking about
see this link to understand my point
chick.com/information/bibleversions/comparison.asp
 
Are either of those translations Catholic? The non-Catholic Bibles have lots of books and verses cut out of them.

As for an old Bible being different, maybe the original manuscripts for the other books got lost. Maybe they got cut out at some point because they were discovered to be false (the original manuscripts found, and those books were not in there). They talk about stuff being crossed out. It could have been someone’s notes. It’s hard to say. And word meanings change over time, so of course translations will be different. That is why Tradition is so important. It helps us remember what Christ taught and how to interpret the Bible.
 
Muslims often affirm, and no doubt sincerely, that Islam is a religion of peace and love. Because of such statements that sometimes appear to be contradicted by fact I decided to read the Quran and try to verify things for myself.
For example, the first Surah, which is, I understand, recited daily, says in Ayats 6 and 7:
6. Guide us to the Straight Way.
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace,
not the way of those who have earned Your Anger,
nor of those who went astray.

All this seems innocuous enough. Those on whom Allah’s Grace has been bestowed are the Muslims who follow the Way of the Quran. But, who are those who have earned Your Anger”? We find in a note:
Narrated by Adi bin Hatim (a companion of the Prophet pbwh) I asked Allah’s Messenger about the statement of Allah: 1. and he replied: “ They are the Jews” And 2. He replied “The Christians and they are the ones who went astray”.
Further, this Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud.

I know that in a couple of Ayats Muslims are urged to treat Jews and Christians kindly but this is an exception. It looks more like an afterthought abrogated elsewhere. Furthermore, what kind of feeling, towards Jews and Christians, is created by such descriptions of them?

It is obvious that Allah does not like Christians and Jews, so why should Muslims?

I would like some explanation on the above before advancing to other questions.

Cinette
 
Muslims often affirm, and no doubt sincerely, that Islam is a religion of peace and love. Because of such statements that sometimes appear to be contradicted by fact I decided to read the Quran and try to verify things for myself.
For example, the first Surah, which is, I understand, recited daily, says in Ayats 6 and 7:
6. Guide us to the Straight Way.
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace,
not the way of those who have earned Your Anger,
nor of those who went astray.

All this seems innocuous enough. Those on whom Allah’s Grace has been bestowed are the Muslims who follow the Way of the Quran. But, who are those who have earned Your Anger”? We find in a note:
Narrated by Adi bin Hatim (a companion of the Prophet pbwh) I asked Allah’s Messenger about the statement of Allah: 1. and he replied: “ They are the Jews” And 2. He replied “The Christians and they are the ones who went astray”.
Further, this Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud.

I know that in a couple of Ayats Muslims are urged to treat Jews and Christians kindly but this is an exception. It looks more like an afterthought abrogated elsewhere. Furthermore, what kind of feeling, towards Jews and Christians, is created by such descriptions of them?

It is obvious that Allah does not like Christians and Jews, so why should Muslims?

I would like some explanation on the above before advancing to other questions.

Cinette
"Certainly, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the Believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Pagans, and you will find the nearest in love to the Believers (Muslims) those who say: “We are Christians.” That is because amongst them are priests (Men devoted to learning) and monks (men who have renounced the world), and because they do not behave proudly. And when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth. They say: “Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism) and we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people?” So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers. But those who disbelieved and denied Our signs, they shall be the dwellers of the Hell-Fire."(Al-Qur’an 5:82-86)

The Qur’an says that the Christians who will be safe on the Day of Judgment are those whose eyes are likely to be overflowing with tears when they listen to the truth of the Qur’an.

However, those who shed crocodile tears are of course not eligible for entry into Paradise.
 
"Certainly, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the Believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Pagans, and you will find the nearest in love to the Believers (Muslims) those who say: “We are Christians.” That is because amongst them are priests (Men devoted to learning) and monks (men who have renounced the world), and because they do not behave proudly. And when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth. They say: “Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism) and we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people?” So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers. But those who disbelieved and denied Our signs, they shall be the dwellers of the Hell-Fire."(Al-Qur’an 5:82-86)

The Qur’an says that the Christians who will be safe on the Day of Judgment are those whose eyes are likely to be overflowing with tears when they listen to the truth of the Qur’an.

However, those who shed crocodile tears are of course not eligible for entry into Paradise.
*You did not answer my question!

Cinette*
 
*You did not answer my question!

Cinette*
The Qur’an is the verbatim Speech of the Lord and Creator of all that exists in the Universe.

I have therefore quoted you His promise to Christians on who He will reward in Paradise.

It is not possible for Muslims to give Christians a better assurance about their likely fate in the Hereafter than what the Master of the Day of Judgment has said in the Qur’an.
 
Koran - 5 - Al-Maeda

#51

**O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors:

They are but friends and protectors to each other.

And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. **
 
The Qur’an is the verbatim Speech of the Lord and Creator of all that exists in the Universe.

I have therefore quoted you His promise to Christians on who He will reward in Paradise.

It is not possible for Muslims to give Christians a better assurance about their likely fate in the Hereafter than what the Master of the Day of Judgment has said in the Qur’an.
**
The Qur’an is the verbatim Speech of the Lord and Creator of all that exists in the Universe
**

Not so - allah never spoke to mohamad - it is “assumed/suggested” that Gabriel or some sort of spirit did the talking, therefore it is not “the verbatim speech of the lord & creator…”
 
Muslims deny historical events that prove that the events of the Bible happened.
You mean there is historical evidence that independently confirms the veracity of events described in the Bible? Can you tell us what you’re referring to here? Just wondering because I’ve never heard this claim before.
 
And Mohammad can attribute anything he wants to the angel gabriel. There was nobody else there as a witness. Mohammad could have said the angel gabriel told everybody make swizzle sticks and hoola hoops and muslims would take him at his word. Entire koran is corrupted and without any chronology. It is lacking in love for others. It is lacking in humility, and it is lacking in foundation. It is totally contrary to what Jesus taught. And since Jesus is God, Mohammad’s message had to come from someone other than God
 
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