Understanding Islamic Views

[cathdoki]

*I do not believe that Mohammed was a prophet but I do believe in showing respect to Muslims (even if they do not respect me) hence I put the pbuh for that reason.

Anything wrong with that?

Cinette*

There is nothing wrong with that. Just as long as you use it after EVERYONE’S name. mohammad has lead billions of people away from Christ. YOU RESPECT THAT?

 

[Cinette]

There is nothing wrong with that. Just as long as you use it after EVERYONE’S name. mohammad has lead billions of people away from Christ. YOU RESPECT THAT?

*You are absolutely correct.

Thank you
Cinette*

 

[DeusVult09]

The “Gospel” writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):

1. “And Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people.” (Matthew 9:35)
2. “… but whosoever shall lose his fife for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.” (Mark 8:35)
3. “… preached the gospel. . .” (Luke 20:1)

which Gospel these gospeles are mentioned ? is it paul writings ?

The “gospel” is a frequently-used word, but what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the Gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single Gospel “according” to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel.

Most Greek-speaking authors heard these traditions (the original gospel) in the Aramaic vernacular and committed them to writing in Greek. None of these writings is dated prior to the year 70 AD; there is not a single instance in these works where the author has cited an authority for an event or maxim attributed to Jesus in order that we might construct a chain of transmission. Furthermore, even their works have not survived. Thousands of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were collected, but none of them is older than the 4th century AD; rather the origin of most of them does not go beyond the period intervening between the 11th and the 14th centuries. Some scattered fragments on papyrus found in Egypt claim no greater antiquity than the third century. Who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin and when did he do it, we cannot say

no the Koran is referring to the biblical gospels in Greek as the very word injeel used in the Koran comes from the Greek evangelion suggesting it is referring to these Greek gospels. all the gospels contain the gospel of Jesus gospel means good news and all the gospels contain jesus’s good news. Even jesus’ name isa come from the greek iesous. If the korna is notrefeing to the biblical gospels please explain why it imported words directly from them. Why did it not use a Semitic version of jesus’s name? But greek? If all the gospels written in greek are corrupted how do you explain this

the whole theory that all the gospels were written after 70 ad is based on Jesus predicting the destruction of the temple and scholars argue that Jesus cant have supernaturally predicted this and these gospels must be written after 70ad when the temple was destroyed. There is no actual proof that the gospels were written after 70 ad or anonymously it is just scholarly assumption. i know i have studied theology.

you are seriously misinformed we do have parts of papyrii from the 2nd and 3rd centuries the fourth century is just when they were all put together into a canon and we have the same texts in codices. but to say we do not have anything till the 4th century is a pure lie. St Jerome translated the bible into Latin

you accuse the bible of hearsay then so to you must accept that the Koran is hearsay as it was written 600 years after Jesus by people who never knew him or the apostles.

If the gospels were not written by eye witnesses which nobody can ever disprove then they were the traditions of the apostles which were preserved orally and later written down.

haha the bible as a single book did not exist when john of Patmos wrote revelation , he was talking about tampering with the book of revelation not the bible.
Martin Luther and the protestants removed 7 books of the bible because it did not fit their theology. on top of this they tried to remove James and revelation. yes i view their bible as a corruption. But you have failed to prove that the catholic bible is at all corrupted. If the new testament or the gospels are corrupted i challenge you to show me one verse in the Koran which explicitly says so or admit no such verse exists.

the biblical gospels are the earliest and were accepted by the early church which would not have been the case if they were mere fabrications

Mohammad wrote or i should say "recited” from hearsay as he lived 600 years after Jesus and had no contact with the apostles. Early Christian Tradition records that the material in mark came straight from st peter.

in reality it is Mohammad who wrote hearsay and much of it Christian hearsay which was so unrealisable even the church didn’t accept it. formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=28664

so please don’t complain bout the bible and hearsay.

 

[DeusVult09]

“So Moses…DIED… and he (God Almighty) BURIED HIM (Moses)… He was 120 years old WHEN HE DIED… and there arose not a prophet SINCE in Israel like unto Moses…(Deuteronomy 34:5-10)”

Did Moses write his own obituary? Similarly, Joshua too speaks in detail about his own death in Joshua 24:29-33.

“And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, DIED, … And they BURIED HIM … And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel ….(Joshua 24:29-33)”

Let us have a slightly more detailed look at only one book of the New Testament, that of ‘Hebrews’:

“The author of the Book of Hebrews is unknown. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author…Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas…Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla (or Prisca). William Ramsey suggested that it was done by Philip. However, the traditional position is that the Apostle Paul wrote Hebrews…Eusebius believed that Paul wrote it, but Origen was not positive of Pauline authorship.”

From the introduction to the King James Bible, New revised and updated sixth edition, the Hebrew/Greek Key Study, Red Letter Edition

and one book of the Old Testament:

“In tradition, [David] is credited with writing 73 of the Psalms; **most scholars, however, consider this claim questionable.” **

Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

In the book “The Story of the Manuscripts” by Rev. George E. Merrill, the good Reverend quotes Prof. Arnold as stating:
“there are not more than fifteen hundred to two thousand places in which there is any uncertainty whatever as to the true text…” /QUOTE

the same old nonsense with you Muslims. you have still failed to prove corruption. Even the Koran talks about David writing the psalms but most scholars believe they were just part of the hymnbook during is reign or something of the sort not thathe physically wrote them.

haha the only difference between the short and long ending is that it ends with Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene and not the disciples. again this disproves nothing as the longer ending is similar to that found in the other gospels.

im surprised you haven’t quoted mr ehrman yet hahah. 98% of all textual variants in the NT are minor spelling mistakes or grammatical errors . only 2% of them change the text in any real way and none of them undermine a single Christian doctrine. you still have failed to disprove the bible. I suggest you research it for yourself and not recite the drivel of answering Christianity.

I have been debating Muslims on here for 3 years and I have found all of their to be flawed and repetitive. unless you can bring some actual proof not the same old refuted arguments please do not flood CA with this nonsense as i can assure you we have heard it all before

 

[cathdoki]

you accuse the bible of hearsay then so to you must accept that the Koran is hearsay as it was written 600 years after Jesus by people who never knew him or the apostles.

Actually it would be better to say the koran is heresy.

Just a matter of rearranging the vowels and leaving one out!

 

[elwill]

Elwill - I was checking the validity of this and it does mention in the tafsir that it is the Jews & Christians…

Sura 1 verse #7

the path of those whom You have favoured, with guidance (from alladhīna together with its relative clause is substituted by [ghayri l-maghdūbi ‘alayhim]) **not **[the path] **of those against whom there is wrath, namely, the Jews, and nor of those who are astray, namely, the Christians. **

**The subtle meaning implied by this substitution is that the guided ones are neither the Jews nor the Christians. **

But God knows best what is right, and to Him is the Return and the [final] Resort.

May God bless our lord Muhammad (s), his Family and Companions and grant them everlasting peace. Sufficient is God for us; an excellent Guardian is He.

There is no power and no strength save in God, the High, the Tremendous.

altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=7&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

(The path of those whom Thou hast favoured), the Religion of those whom You have blessed with the Religion and who are the followers of Moses, before the blessings of Allah deserted them, in that He shaded them with a white cloud and sent down on them honey and quails when they were in the wilderness.

**It is also said that (the path of those whom Thou hast favoured) refers to the prophets. (Not of those who earn Thine anger), not the religion of the Jews who earned Your anger, whom You forsook and whose hearts You did not protect until they became complaisant.

(Nor of those who go astray), nor the religion of the Christians who erred from Islam. **

Amen: thus shall be its custodians; it is also said that Amen means let it be so. It is also said that it means: O our Lord! Do with us as we have requested You.

And Allah knows best’.

altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=7&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

yet , i said nothing wrong . i said that surah didn’t specify them , it was the interpretation or understanding view from some muslims .

i have no problems to argue the interpratation of some people for this verse , but i was emphesized that jews and christians not mentioned in these verses

my view
from specific scope i completely agree with this interpretation , as for if we are talking through scope of monotheism relegions then i can refere to christians as those who astrayed from the truth , while jews angered God because of thier disobeying to him

but with general scope , the verse can refer to anyone disobeyed God intentionaly which make him anger including muslims themself and it refer to anyone who astrayed from the real teaching without intention including muslims (different sects or practices)

the verse involves whoever go astray and whoever cause anger of God

 

[Kitsune633]

yet , i said nothing wrong . i said that surah didn’t specify them , it was the interpretation or understanding view from some muslims .

i have no problems to argue the interpratation of some people for this verse , but i was emphesized that jews and christians not mentioned in these verses

my view
from specific scope i completely agree with this interpretation , as for if we are talking through scope of monotheism relegions then i can refere to christians as those who astrayed from the truth , while jews angered God because of thier disobeying to him

but with general scope , the verse can refer to anyone disobeyed God intentionaly which make him anger including muslims themself and it refer to anyone who astrayed from the real teaching without intention including muslims (different sects or practices)

the verse involves whoever go astray and whoever cause anger of God

So therefore ElWill, you are saying all Christians are people who are lead astray? Are you saying all the Copts you like to beat up are astray? The Catholics are stray? The Orthodox Churches, Greek and Assyrian rites are astray? Do we Christians anger Allah/God/Yahweh? Where is your information that we, Christians of every rite and denomination anger Allah? One of the names of Allah is “The Deceiver” so God deceives people? So therfore, you are saying God DECEIVES people through His Will?

 

[cathdoki]

yet , i said nothing wrong . i said that surah didn’t specify them , it was the interpretation or understanding view from some muslims .

i have no problems to argue the interpratation of some people for this verse , but i was emphesized that jews and christians not mentioned in these verses

my view
from specific scope i completely agree with this interpretation , as for if we are talking through scope of monotheism relegions then i can refere to christians as those who astrayed from the truth , while jews angered God because of thier disobeying to him

but with general scope , the verse can refer to anyone disobeyed God intentionaly which make him anger including muslims themself and it refer to anyone who astrayed from the real teaching without intention including muslims (different sects or practices)

the verse involves whoever go astray and whoever cause anger of God

Denying Christ is a great way to anger God.

 

[Kitsune633]

Denying Christ is a great way to anger God.

And persecutting Christians in the Middle East, such as Egypt as an example is another way to incur the wrath of God. Blowing up churches in Iraq is a great way to incur the wrath of God. Trying to destroy the Maronites in Lebanon is another great way to get on God’s nerves and of course, persecutting Christians in Iran, Turkey, and the so called
“Palestinian” Territories is another way you can make God so angry.

 

[cathdoki]

So therefore ElWill, you are saying all Christians are people who are lead astray? Are you saying all the Copts you like to beat up are astray? The Catholics are stray? The Orthodox Churches, Greek and Assyrian rites are astray? Do we Christians anger Allah/God/Yahweh? Where is your information that we, Christians of every rite and denomination anger Allah? One of the names of Allah is “The Deceiver” so God deceives people? So therfore, you are saying God DECEIVES people through His Will?

The koran says God does deceive. Christians and Jews know that is not true. There is only one deceiver. SATAN!!! The great deceiver.

Think about it. God has deceived many. He started a false religion called Christianity by secretly taking Jesus off the cross and replacing Him with a look a like. Then God allowed the deception to spread. What kind of god is allah? The great deceiver. Not the God of Christians and Jews.

 

[cathdoki]

And persecutting Christians in the Middle East, such as Egypt as an example is another way to incur the wrath of God.

You’ve got that right!

Christians are not allowed to worship freely in most of the muslim world. But muslims want to be able to build mosques where they please. Even ground zero. They have no respect for others.

An interesting point is, if islam is the true religion, then why do muslims have to threaten those that want to leave islam with death?

 

[Kitsune633]

You’ve got that right!

Christians are not allowed to worship freely in most of the muslim world. But muslims want to be able to build mosques where they please. Even ground zero. They have no respect for others.

An interesting point is, if islam is the true religion, then why do muslims have to threaten those that want to leave islam with death?

True, and the Muslims can do whatever they want, and of course, they can storm into a church and kill people, they can raid, loot, and destroy property owned by Christians. One time, this Coptic monastery in Northern Egypt was raided by Bedouins who are lazy and rob people, armed with guns and explosives, the desert dwellers stole precious icons, destroyed crosses and cultural treasures, and mocked the cross.

It is written in their Magic Book of Desert Fables AKA the Quran that anyone who leaves Islam is an apostate and he must die because God says so.

 

[cathdoki]

True, and the Muslims can do whatever they want, and of course, they can storm into a church and kill people, they can raid, loot, and destroy property owned by Christians. One time, this Coptic monastery in Northern Egypt was raided by Bedouins who are lazy and rob people, armed with guns and explosives, the desert dwellers stole precious icons, destroyed crosses and cultural treasures, and mocked the cross.

It is written in their Magic Book of Desert Fables AKA the Quran that anyone who leaves Islam is an apostate and he must die because God says so.

And their allah, the great deceiver, condones it all. Does that sound like a great and merciful god? Absolutely not. It sounds like an angry, vengeful, hating, derelict of a god. Not the God of Christians and Jews.

 

[Kitsune633]

And their allah, the great deceiver, condones it all. Does that sound like a great and merciful god? Absolutely not. It sounds like an angry, vengeful, hating, derelict of a god. Not the God of Christians and Jews.

Arab-speaking Christians called God “Allah” which means “God” before the times of Muhammed. But of course, Muhammed placed words into God’s mouth, saying that God is a dictator, a tyrant, and a angry and vengeful deity. This is mistake Westerners make. Allah is the Arabic word for God, but of course, Muhammed did put the Word’s of the Devil into God’s mouth.

 

[DeusVult09]

Arab-speaking Christians called God “Allah” which means “God” before the times of Muhammed. But of course, Muhammed placed words into God’s mouth, saying that God is a dictator, a tyrant, and a angry and vengeful deity. This is mistake Westerners make. Allah is the Arabic word for God, but of course, Muhammed did put the Word’s of the Devil into God’s mouth.

yes thats right the arab christians called god allah long before islam existed. so too did the arab pagans. They called their head diety allah. Mohammad’s grandfather was cas called abdullah slave of allah and he was a pagan

 

[Cinette]

yet , i said nothing wrong . i said that surah didn’t specify them , it was the interpretation or understanding view from some muslims .

I sit here with the Qur’an next to me and I quote ** "This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud…**…Narrated "Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger about the Statement of Allah: Ghairi l-maghdubi 'alaihim (not the way of those who earned Your Anger) he replied: “They are the Jews” And Wa la d-dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied:: "The Christians, and they are the ones who went astray"

i have no problems to argue the interpratation of some people for this verse , but i was emphesized that jews and christians not mentioned in these verses

my view
from specific scope i completely agree with this interpretation , as for if we are talking through scope of monotheism relegions then i can refere to christians as those who astrayed from the truth , while jews angered God because of thier disobeying to him

but with general scope , the verse can refer to anyone disobeyed God intentionaly which make him anger including muslims themself and it refer to anyone who astrayed from the real teaching without intention including muslims (different sects or practices)

the verse involves whoever go astray and whoever cause anger of God

Here is something that disturbed me:

Surah 16 (V16:112) Narrated Ibn 'Abbas said, **I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were disbelievers or ungrateful." ***He was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, **"They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favours and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them for a period of time and then she sees something in you (not of her liking) she will say “I have never seen any good from you.” ** (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 1, Hadith No. 28)

It is evident that women are 2nd class human beings and enslaved in Muslim societies.

Cinette

 

[cathdoki]

Arab-speaking Christians called God “Allah” which means “God” before the times of Muhammed. But of course, Muhammed placed words into God’s mouth, saying that God is a dictator, a tyrant, and a angry and vengeful deity. This is mistake Westerners make. Allah is the Arabic word for God, but of course, Muhammed did put the Word’s of the Devil into God’s mouth.

Yes! You are absolutely correct. Many Arab Christians refer to God as Allah. When I don’t use caps I am specifically thinking of the muslim allah. I should have made that clear.

 

[Kitsune633]

Yes! You are absolutely correct. Many Arab Christians refer to God as Allah. When I don’t use caps I am specifically thinking of the muslim allah. I should have made that clear.

It’s alright, we all make mistakes.

 

[cathdoki]

here is something that disturbed me:

Surah 16 (v16:112) narrated ibn 'abbas said, **i was shown the hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were disbelievers or ungrateful." ***he was asked, “do they disbelieve in allah?” (or are they ungrateful to allah?) he replied, **"they are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favours and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them for a period of time and then she sees something in you (not of her liking) she will say “i have never seen any good from you.” ** (sahih al-bukhari, vol 1, hadith no. 28)

it is evident that women are 2nd class human beings and enslaved in muslim societies.

Cinette

absolutely!

But their religion also says to treat ALL non-muslims as inferior. Christians and Jews are dogs and pigs. In an earlier post I said I don’t really mind. I love bacon. And my wife and I have 2 German Sheps and an 8 month old husky puppy. We obviously love dogs too.

 

[elwill]

What I find difficult to understand How Allah can pass collective judgment on a people. Are all Jews bad? Are all Christians bad? and also are all Muslims Good?

you can find the answers in the quran if you cited the verses which talking about them as those on the chapters 2 or 3 .
but you insist on chapter #1 which mention nothing about jews or christians , and that was my objection

anyway , not all jews are bad nor all christians are bad nor all muslims are good , and i can show you that from quran itself if you want