Understanding Islamic Views

[simple_soul]

Before thinking in any topic about Islam and Christianity&Jews we should know that “ALLAH” Is NOT OUR God “Jehovah”

once understood, you can understand everything…

I have to agree with (name removed by moderator) on this. It is my understanding that this is not what the Church teaches.

 

[simple_soul]

but before I go, I want any Muslim****, that could prove to me that “Mohammad IS NOW IN HEAVEN” and Is able to proof it, to not estate plzzzzzzzzzz.

*Dear Alcrusader,

While I am waiting for Muslims to prove that Mohammad is now in heavan, I have to ask you to plzzzzzzz prove to me that he is not in heaven.*

 

[cathdoki]

*Dear Alcrusader,

While I am waiting for Muslims to prove that Mohammad is now in heavan, I have to ask you to plzzzzzzz prove to me that he is not in heaven.*

Well, he denied the Divinity of Christ. And has lead many away from Jesus. That’s enough for me.

 

[Alcrusader]

*Dear Alcrusader,

While I am waiting for Muslims to prove that Mohammad is now in heavan, I have to ask you to plzzzzzzz prove to me that he is not in heaven.*

Shouldn’t I first wait Muslims to prove that mohammad is in heaven in the firstplace?
All I can tell you is, and it’s a question for all muslims, why did mohammad before he died asked his followers to ask ALLAH to pray on mohammad and ask him that he could allow to mohammad to enter heaven?
…sala allah ala mohamad wa sallam… w lyoskenah fasih jinaneh…

“… May ALLAH pray on mohammad and “tell him hello [in the common sens]” … and may him [ALLAH] allow mohammad to enter his glorious Heaven…”

From here I’m gona start. Why mohammad asked his followers to always pray for him so that “ALLAH” allow him to enter the heaven???
Wasn’t he a prophet??? shouldn’t he pray for us and not we as muslims] pray for him? Isn’t weird ???

Didn’t Mohammad trusted his god, and wasn’t he sure about entering heavens?
Or was he scared that that his god never existed or is not to be trusted in the first place…?
Maybe mohammad was scared about all his sins from killing to raping to steeling to allowing many things were forbidden in the past…?

---

this is a Hadith, from Sahih Moslim, Book 031, Number 5986:

A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) at the time of breathing his last was reclining against her chest and she was leaning over him and listening to him as he was saying: O Allah, grant me pardon, show mercy to me, enjoin me to companions
(on High).

the bad thing is that it is not precisely translated to english!!!

and this is the arabic version which is more precise.

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن الزبرقان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏موسى بن عقبة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏
‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏سددوا ‏ ‏وقاربوا ‏ ‏وأبشروا فإنه لا يدخل أحدا الجنة عمله قالوا ولا أنت يا رسول الله قال ولا أنا إلا أن يتغمدني الله بمغفرة ورحمة ‏
‏قال أظنه ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي النضر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏وقال ‏ ‏عفان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏وهيب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏موسى بن عقبة ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏أبا سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏سددوا ‏ ‏وأبشروا ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏مجاهد ‏
‏قولا سديدا ‏
‏وسدادا صدقا
​

the main point is that mohammad say that " … Behold you people non is going to enter the heaven for his works, and they asked him, not even you prophet? He said, not even me! Only if ALLAH grant me pardon and showed me mercy… etc"

---

this is surah maryam 19: 71- 72

1.  Not one of you but will pass over it (Hell): this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

2.  But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrongdoers therein, (humbled) to their knees.

and the arabic version says

وان منكم الا واردها . كان على ربك حتما مقضيا. ثم ننجي الذين اتقوا ونذروا الظالمين فيها جثيا
( سوره مريم 71-72)
​

and it means that non of you [Muslims] will not go to hell! this means, each muslim gonna visit hell after he dies, and their he even could stay for ever in the fire and misery, or go away from it. But what’s 100% certain is that EACH MUSLIM GONNA ENTER HELL! Even Mohammad him self, since he’s muslim too.

---

and above that all we have this devastating verse in
آل عمران 54

وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ​

Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

and this means

And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

DID you BELIEVED THAT???

THE QURAN SAY THAT ALLAH/GOD IS THE BEST CHEATER!!! EVEN THE BEST OF THE CHEATERS!!

look how Muslim reacted about it when they translated their book to other language! LOOK WHAT THEY DID!

this is Surah Âl 'Imran (3:54) in English version]

They [unbelievers] planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:54)

The WORD “CHEATER” BECAME “PLANER”!!!

See how The LIES Start To Falls?!

need more info. read here: answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/003.054.html

how muslim gona reply? :::::: > Their is 2 kind of cheats, an Good one and a bad one.
and certainly the cheating of ALLAH is the good one.

plz don’t luff !! this is how muslim respond on it! I deals with muslims on forums all the time, and they all anwser the same thing!

Is there “A GOOD CHEAT” AND “A BAD CHEAT” in the first place??

And watch out!, “Cheating” ( in arabic مكر - or ماكر) is one of the characteristics of ALLAH, or called 99 names of allah

could any one trust a cheater person], if no… what if it is a god who is a cheater???

 

[Steven_John]

Well, he denied the Divinity of Christ. And has lead many away from Jesus. That’s enough for me.

Peace and blessings i am not seeking debate with you but want to encourage to to reflect and pray on this statement for you personally not to in interrupt your discernment. So you dont let it become judgment.

Br Leith i think it was posted most excellent on the Catholic church teaching of ignorance sharing even some saints have committed what She now sees as error.

This understanding of ignorance while seen in this world is a blessing to others it is a huge blessings to its members, it gives us an insight on why not to judge showing we dont have capacity.

For me i take from it a warning about deciding if Mohamed (pbuh) place or no place at the table.

It is also worth being mindful it is narrated Yeshua (pbwh) was asked for seats at the table and he explained G-d knows who sits where.

Yes he taught we can forgive sins, for those who did wrong to him he sought forgiveness for them and how wrong do we discern they did, but where would we maybe be now should it not have happened.

I offer you this with love, so that you grow in great mercy, to be shown great mercy, G-d will have us all put us all in our places.

In regard to is Allah the same G-d for Catholics refer to the Catechism and many threads here on it.

Blessings to you and yours

 

[Steven_John]

Peace and blessings i cant speak for any one but will share with you best i can see, not to change your mind, but to just share with you where i am at today.

Shouldn’t I first wait Muslims to prove that mohammad is in heaven in the firstplace?
They accept their writings teachings and inspirations as authority as you do yours, it would not help either of you. Your question would maybe do no more than encourage argument. I cant prove Yeshua (pbwh) was nailed on a cross any more than you can even if go outside of the books of the bible to say the writings of Josephus they do not have sufficient to prove. Kindly to you IMO it is destructive to say to some one prove what you can not disprove only discern

All I can tell you is, and it’s a question for all muslims, why did mohammad before he died asked his followers to ask ALLAH to pray on mohammad and ask him that he could allow to mohammad to enter heaven?
…sala allah ala mohamad wa sallam… w lyoskenah fasih jinaneh…

“… May ALLAH pray on mohammad and “tell him hello [in the common sens]” … and may him [ALLAH] allow mohammad to enter his glorious Heaven…”

From here I’m gona start. Why mohammad asked his followers to always pray for him so that “ALLAH” allow him to enter the heaven???
Wasn’t he a prophet??? shouldn’t he pray for us and not we as muslims] pray for him? Isn’t weird ???

The Quran explains Mahomed (pbuh) to be of flesh and blood of natural parents like you and me. It also explains he has sins and seeks forgivness. Muslims i know pray for people asking Allah to make them as He is pleased. Humble men ask forgivness. this does not prove him not a prophet. Moses (pbuh) is said to have struck Yeshua (pbwh) with his stick and thus was not allowed into the promised land, it does not nullify him as a prophet, it makes him human G-d uses humans to serve each other

Didn’t Mohammad trusted his god, and wasn’t he sure about entering heavens?Thats a question only he would be able to answer, if you understand and agree with the Catholic church teaching on ignorance offered earlier, so with respect is not a good question. Best i could offer is the narations of his life show great faith in what he believed. your questions show you to see him as many Muslims share with me a very humble man with healthy fear of G-ds judgmnet seeking His abundant mercy
Or was he scared that that his god never existed or is not to be trusted in the first place…?That is a very open question and worth noting is even he was unsure of the nature of the spirit that shook him but his wife an one of here relatives told him it was from G-d
Maybe mohammad was scared about all his sins from killing to raping to steeling to allowing many things were forbidden in the past…?Now with respect i reckon your venting anger against the injustice you see. Anger is healthy if it does not slag off and askes kindly with love (verb) as Yeshua (pbwh) is narated to have exampled

---

…

I have skipped over most of this last section, as i try to keep out of hadith discussions they are very difficult and were written generation i think 300 years after Mahomed (pbuh) so to me a very long hearsay. Its maybe good you are seeking light in them to gently help share love. I am still having trouble with the Quran so try not to go to hadiths.

My interpretation i am not a scholar of Arabic so do have a lot of difficulty whith lots of Quran. I asked the spirit of the verse on cheating asking what good can be found in this. Best i could get was people think they can cheat, device, hide from Allah is not good for you as He has power not you, it is His mercy that allows you this freedom. There is nothing you can do better than Him.

I offer you this not to encourage debate but to encourage you to phrase questions in the light of the thread topic, being understanding not refuting. I am very pleased you have posted here and will seek learning and blessing from you posts.

Blessings to you and yours

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

From here I’m gona start. Why mohammad asked his followers to always pray for him so that “ALLAH” allow him to enter the heaven???
Wasn’t he a prophet??? shouldn’t he pray for us and not we as muslims] pray for him? Isn’t weird ???

The Quran explains Mahomed (pbuh) to be of flesh and blood of natural parents like you and me. It also explains he has sins and seeks forgivness. Muslims i know pray for people asking Allah to make them as He is pleased. Humble men ask forgivness. this does not prove him not a prophet. Moses (pbuh) is said to have struck Yeshua (pbwh) with his stick and thus was not allowed into the promised land, it does not nullify him as a prophet, it makes him human G-d uses humans to serve each other

I don’t recall Moses striking Joshua(?) with his stick. Numbers 20:11 “And Moses lifted up his hand and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly and the congregation drank and their beasts also.” Is this another case where the koran takes a Biblical story and rewrites it? The koran is chock full of Biblical re-writes and anchronisms.

 

[Steven_John]

I don’t recall Moses striking Joshua(?) with his stick. Numbers 20:11 “And Moses lifted up his hand and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly and the congregation drank and their beasts also.” Is this another case where the koran takes a Biblical story and rewrites it? The koran is chock full of Biblical re-writes and anchronisms.

Brother John i did not know the Quran said this please quote it for me so i know you are straight with me.
I am concerned you are making assumptions and running off a little. If thats the case, i share with you i do it myself too often.

Christians have told me Yeshua (pbwh) is the rock as the spring of living water. They may have been wrong.

Could you share with me was Moses (pbuh) commanded by G-d to strike the rock? or did Moses (pbuh) do this of his own accord, thus explaining my point of prophets (pbut) not needing to be perfect humans.
Also why was he not permitted to enter the promised land.

Peace and blessings

 

[elwill]

Brother John i did not know the Quran said this please quote it for me so i know you are straight with me.
I am concerned you are making assumptions and running off a little. If thats the case, i share with you i do it myself too often.

Christians have told me Yeshua (pbwh) is the rock as the spring of living water. They may have been wrong.

Could you share with me was Moses (pbuh) commanded by G-d to strike the rock? or did Moses (pbuh) do this of his own accord, thus explaining my point of prophets (pbut) not needing to be perfect humans.
Also why was he not permitted to enter the promised land.

Peace and blessings

2-60 And when Musa prayed for drink for his people, We said: Strike the rock with your staff So there gushed from it twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place: Eat and drink of the provisions of Allah and do not act corruptly in the land, making mischief.

7-160 And We divided them into twelve tribes, as nations; and We revealed to Musa when his people asked him for water: Strike the rock with your staff, so outnowed from it twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place; and We made the clouds to give shade over them and We sent to them manna and quails: Eat of the good things We have given you. And they did not do Us any harm, but they did injustice to their own souls.

allah punished jews by preventing them enter the promised land because of their disobdience , it wasn’t a punishment for mosas (pbuh)

5-20 And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.

5-21 O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.

5-22 They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.

5-23 Two men of those who feared , upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.

5-24 They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.

5-25 He said: My Lord! Surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors.

5-26 He (God) said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors

if you have any difficulties in understanding any verse , i will be pleased to describe it

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Brother John i did not know the Quran said this please quote it for me so i know you are straight with me.
I am concerned you are making assumptions and running off a little. If thats the case, i share with you i do it myself too often.

The koran quite a few Bible strories that are re-writen. I thought, since *you said it * that it was one of them - I did not know your source at the time. Strangely enough the koran has a version there are twelve fountains that flow from the rock. And when Moses asked drink for his people, we said, ‘Strike the rock with thy rod;’ and from it there gushed twelve fountains: each tribe knew their drinking-place (Sura 2)

Christians have told me Yeshua (pbwh) is the rock as the spring of living water. They may have been wrong.

OK now I know your source.

Could you share with me was Moses (pbuh) commanded by G-d to strike the rock? or did Moses (pbuh) do this of his own accord, thus explaining my point of prophets (pbut) not needing to be perfect humans.
Also why was he not permitted to enter the promised land.

Peace and blessings

That story isn’t about Prophets being perfect. Yes, there are many example in the Old Testament, where Prophets where had weaknesses and problems, but they had to overcome their short-comings. This story isn’t one them exactly.

The Rock represents the Church, and the water represents the Holy Spirit (the Third Pers of the Blessed Trinity) Jesus Christ forms the Church, He establishes the Sacraments, and He sends the Holy Spirit. Just as God uses the rock for his vehicle to send forth water, Jesus uses His Church to send forth The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit flows forth from the Church through Her 7 Sacraments which where instituted by Jesus Christ. There is only one Baptism into the Family of God, there is only one Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ (True God, True Man) on the Cross.

 

[Alcrusader]

1st of all may all the peace our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,
2sd with all my due respect to you, you seems like your mixing thing together. This maybe because you have an already a previews image on Islam.

1st of all the cross thing I proven.
translate.google.com.lb/translate?u=http://www.arabicbible.com/arabic/a_jesus/a_jesus_crucificationofjesus.htm&sl=ar&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

If the Crucifixion was proved by pagan romans at that time, and since then the cross is the symbol of Christianity, and if the Bible approve this fact, and the OT spoke about it and predicted it, and still you don’t believe in Crucifixion… well I doubt if you believe in Jesus in the 1st place.

If you are speaking from the point of view Islamic, you can see that the quran say that allah took Issa to him and sent another person instead of him, to protect him from the Jews. and that’s IT!

You see the quran never cancelled the fact that jesus sorry I mean Issa “was not killed”, or even the “crucifixion concept” is not cancelled by the quran…

The problem is that Muslims did not understood what the quran says - or they didn’t what to - this is not the real problem, but saying that Isaa was not crucified but referring to a verse that doesn’t reject it !! this is the real problem

here’s verses from the quran.
Surah nisa 4: 153- 157 ( look at words in red)

1. The people of the Book [the Jews]  ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public" but they were dazed for their presumption, by thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so We forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

2. And for their Covenant We raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) We said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) We commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath." And We took from them a solemn Covenant.

3. (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe.

4. That they rejected Faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge.

5. That they **said** (in boast),** "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"**;―** but they killed him not, nor crucified him,** but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.―

see verse 157 ??
this is what the Muslim, or more precisley “what the Muslim base on ALL THEIR doubt about cruscifiction”
here the Quran NEVER CANCEL THE FACT OF CRUCIFICTION!!!
THEY QURAN SAY TO JEWS THAT : " YOU DID NOT CRUCIFIED JESUS / ISAA, NOR YOU DID KILLED HIM "!!! AND THAT’S IT.

and this is true. because the jews did not KILLED Jesus, but the Romans DID.
SO THIS PASSAGE JUST REMOVE THE FACT THAT THE JEWISH PEOPLE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING JESUS.

100% TRUE.

1st of all THE PROBLEM IS, THAT ISLAM SAY : " THE PROPHETS DON’T HAVE SINS, ALLAH HAS PLACED THEM IN A CERTAIN POSITION HIGHER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE, and that THEY ARE WITHOUT SINS nor THEY DO SINS"!!!

do you see where is the problem???

From the point of views Christian, we say that everyone has sins even the prophets, the only person who is without sins is Jesus Christ the Messiah.

HOW COME THE QURAN IN SOME PLACE SAY THAT PROPHET DON’T HAVE SINS, AND IN OTHER PLACE HE STATES THE SINS THAT WERE MADE by Moses, Adam, Suleiman… even mohammad him self!
do you see where is the problem?

PS: When speaking about Islam, don’t think as Christian!!! because you gonna start mixing thing together!!
Mohammad was never sure he gonna enter heaven, nor any muslim now.
How come a PROPHET CAN’T enter heaven?? do you believe that??
also, you know that mohammad had revelations from the Devil?? and that each verse of the quran is protected with " 7 demons"???
“A DIVINE BOOK” which is protected with Demons??? kinda weirdo no?

I’m not anger! I’m talking facts!!
Mohammad did killed ( he killed Christians and Jews for not believing in him), did make wars, did steal, even took loots from his wars, he raped womens and children, he even slept with a dead women pretending " he did that to save her the misery of hell and the ALLAH take her to heaven"!!! … and many more!

If mohammad wasn’t a sinner, than people like Hitler, Napoleon, and Stalin are now in Heaven…!

the last part is 100% true. and i’m telling you.

Muslims FEAR ALLAH because HE IS “MAKER” مكر in english it means " ALLAH IS A CHEATER"

this means ALLAH could tell you something, and in the end he could not do it, or cold do something else!!

You can’t Trust ALLAH because he is like a " FOX" this is the best way to discribe ALLAH, he’s like a fox.

" sly: cunning as a fox"

 

[Steven_John]

…

if you have any difficulties in understanding any verse , i will be pleased to describe it

AsSalum o Aliekum Brother,
I give thanks to Allah for your posting to me.
I did not do too well in my asking brother John to see where i was coming from as i was speaking of some Christians explanation of Moses (pbuh) of the second time seeking water.

As i am very small here it is best i ask posters rather than shooting my mouth of. Allah teaches me to be humble so as to lest my errors that none of you be mislead.

The reason for the original post was to explain the prophets (pbut) can make error, that error does not mean they are not prophets based on Christian teaching and books not the Quran as they differ.

I would have done better by him should i have stated better what i was speaking of, may Allah forgive me as He is most forgiving and merciful.

May Allah bless and guide you and yours

 

[Sam_777]

but before I go, I want any Muslim****, that could prove to me that “Mohammad IS NOW IN HEAVEN” and Is able to proof it, to not estate plzzzzzzzzzz.

But Muslims do not and never claimed that Muhammed is already in heaven !!!

 

[Sam_777]

I have to agree with (name removed by moderator) on this. It is my understanding that this is not what the Church teaches.

Ditto that…

 

[Steven_John]

Bless you Brother in reflection i should have been clear to you.

The koran quite a few Bible strories that are re-writen. ** I thought, since *you said it *** that it was one of them - I did not know your source at the time. Strangely enough the koran has a version there are twelve fountains that flow from the rock. And when Moses asked drink for his people, we said, ‘Strike the rock with thy rod;’ and from it there gushed twelve fountains: each tribe knew their drinking-place (Sura 2)

As for the bold I feel insulted or pre-judged by you,
being mindful Islam does not teach as you have explained later in your post,
you dont have the story Moses (pbuh) struck Yeshua (pbwh) from the Quran,
as you now see i did not have the story Moses (pbuh) struck Yeshua (pbwh) the Quran,
the Quran does not say Moses (pbuh) struck Yeshua (pbwh) as explained Islam does not see the rock as explained by you later does not have it
does this mean you assume when i speak i lie?
What else can i conclude? unless its a typo it is by your word it is only because i said it you thought it was a lie in Islam, besides me ant more important it is unkind to the people of the Islamic religion

Your saying you now see the source i referred to and now quoting the Quran only adds confusion. As you explanation is close to what i said than any Islamic teaching an its Christian.

in the books of the bible the second time Moses (pbuh) drew water form the rock was he instructed to or is it considered to be an error by Christians? best i remember and i am very poor at remembering verses and slow in looking things up (poor reading skills) he was not instructed to but did. If i understand Christian scholarship this is why he was not permitted to enter the land but by G-ds mercy was permitted to see it.

assuming he was not instructed to it shows him to be in error but does not mean he is not a prophet. That was my point in relation to the poster who used Mahomed (pbuh) not being a messenger because he sinned. Of course being a sinner and other prophets being sinner does not confirm him a prophet.

As for being told the rock is Yeshua (pbwh) thanks you have explained well the understanding that had been shared with me.

OK now I know your source.

That story isn’t about Prophets being perfect. Yes, there are many example in the Old Testament, where Prophets where had weaknesses and problems, but they had to overcome their short-comings. This story isn’t one them exactly.

well in this light you have answered my previous question, obviously if prophets have to overcome their short comings, Moses (pbuh) would not have been in error.

I think with respect prophets dont have to overcome their short comings, like us all they should but G-d works around them, ie Moses (pbuh) had trouble with speech so G-d worked around this by using his brother (pbuh)

The Rock represents the Church, and the water represents the Holy Spirit (the Third Pers of the Blessed Trinity) Jesus Christ forms the Church, He establishes the Sacraments, and He sends the Holy Spirit. Just as God uses the rock for his vehicle to send forth water, Jesus uses His Church to send forth The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit flows forth from the Church through Her 7 Sacraments which where instituted by Jesus Christ. There is only one Baptism into the Family of God, there is only one Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ (True God, True Man) on the Cross.

This conveys as i shared earlier and moves along well to explain Catholic doctrine of other things not relevant to my point.

Bless you and yours

 

[viveret]

Certainly, neither bin Laden nor his principal associate, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are graduates of Islamic universities. And so their proclamations ignore 14 centuries of Muslim scholarship, and instead take the form of lists of anti-American grievances and of Koranic quotations referring to early Muslim wars against Arab idolaters.

That’s not Islam.
That’s garden-variety arrogance. You can find it, wearing too much make-up or too thick a veil, on any street-corner in the world.
If Muslims cannot discriminate between the arrogance of a few men and the content of their faith, then the deception of the world has truly infiltrated too many of them.
You either have faith in your pride or faith in God.
You either put your desire for power at the center of your actions, or you put God there.
There is no in-between.

 

[Sam_777]

Certainly, neither bin Laden nor his principal associate, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are graduates of Islamic universities.

FYI both of them are university graduates, although the names of the universities are not Islamic (King Abdulaziz University and Cairo University) but both of these men have thrived in Islamic studies throughout their education years (elementary to secondary) not to mention the mosques lectures from time to time.

Moreover, most public Muslims (those who are not politics) consider OBL and his group to be the most devoted Muslims in the world, because OBL had dumped all his wealth for the sake of Allah and that what most public Muslims believe…

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s not Islam.
That’s garden-variety arrogance.
A.] No thats an interpretation of religion which corrupts the better thinking of a religion. Its the realiity of the Taliban and those who face it in border towns of Afghanistan. Those who speak to Americans by day and Taliban by night. If they follow the word or calaborate with the West they are hung or decapitated at night. Thats the current reality. They are literal ping-pong balls in between two armys. They have no desire to fight the Talibans cause. Thats their government when we are not there. Many will convert, many will live in peace rooted in their belief. Many are brainwashed by violence and fear of it, just as US Troops are. Why would it be different in another land with another religion? Our mistake is to pull out and leave these societys at the end of conflicts. Then once again War Lords take over governments, and a interpreted thinking of religion becomes the religion.

You can find it, wearing too much make-up or too thick a veil, on any street-corner in the world.
A.] Thats the end result of being mislead through misinterpretation and violence. And violence being validated. This could be corrected through teaching.

If Muslims cannot discriminate between the arrogance of a few men and the content of their faith,
A.] They have no choice, they are Indoctrinated through Totalitarianism, those who do have the choice, are those who can be reasoned with and led to a clear honest understanding. Even then learned behavior is an obstacle Both of which you see in this very thread. The Islamic numbers confirm the wrong belief. The very idea that a Victory in War is possible also escalates the issues. The wrong belief becomes confirmed and then is fully and totally believed to be correct. Just study Nazi Germany to see how thoroughly Evil and power, and the wrong thinking in a belief corrupt.
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then the deception of the world has truly infiltrated too many of them.
A.] This is the point we are at. The Islamic faith has exceeded the Catholic/Christain numbers as we speak. The words of the Blessed Mother ring very true in these last days in time. To allow the chaos of a few sick minded individuals seriously effects the masses. No different than Hitler in Germany. You give the human mind way to much credit. And not enough to the power of Evil.
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You either have faith in your pride or faith in God.
A.] Through learned behavior the Quran is the Islamic Nations Holy Book thus their God. They firmly believe they are following the right path and yours is wrong. Pride has nothing to do with this. The case of learned behavior roots this issue along with indoctrination through violence. Then to compound the issue those mislead through lack of understanding and intellect become a symtom of the problem, not the problem in essense.
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You either put your desire for power at the center of your actions, or you put God there.
There is no in-between.
A.] This is exactly what bin-Laden is doing, Only there is no “or” in the middle. He is using Religion to fuel the desire for power, and it “is” at the center of his actions. So your thinking would confirm his. Only running the flag of a different religion.

Islam doesn’t all fit neatly in one package. Just as Germany didn’t in WWII. All who follow this faith are not terrorists, All don’t follow the thinking of bin Laden. Many truly believe the man is evil. Many are motivated through fear. And so on.

 

[GaryTaylor]

FYI both of them are university graduates, although the names of the universities are not Islamic (King Abdulaziz University and Cairo University)

with a degree in “economics and management”? So this wouldn’t make him an expert an anything to do with religion.

but both of these men have thrived in Islamic studies throughout their education years (elementary to secondary) not to mention the mosques lectures from time to time.

As you see the first sentence is false. The second simply means his beliefs have never been confronted by his peers or anyone truly educated in this faith and or other faiths.

Moreover, most public Muslims (those who are not politics) consider OBL and his group to be the most devoted Muslims in the world, because OBL had dumped all his wealth for the sake of Allah and that what most public Muslims believe

So this would also be your thinking then? Follow the Taliban and bin-Laden? While they hang and decapitate muslins at night? Wage war and violence with anyone who disagrees with there thinking and belief and the rest of the world. And you wonder why theres a Trident Sub in every ocean as we speak, capable of 5-7 times the destruction of Nagasaki.

What difference does it make in how much one donates to a faith if you donate all? Also how does this make anything right? What does monetary gain have to do with anything?

 

[viveret]

You either put your desire for power at the center of your actions, or you put God there.
There is no in-between.
A.] This is exactly what bin-Laden is doing,

No it isn’t.
Because Bin Laden has no God.
His pride is his God.

He is using Religion to fuel the desire for power, and it “is” at the center of his actions.

He expresses his arrogance in religious terms.
But it remains arrogance.

So your thinking would confirm his.

No. My thinking describes his. It doesn’t confirm it because I don’t know the man.

When the Israelites were wayward, God gave Moses the choice-- he could accept their annihilation and become the father of a new nation of how own progeny, or he could intercede for the Israelites and preserve them such that they might amend their lives. Moses chose the latter and we know that it was a virtuous choice. A godly and even holy choice.
Had he chosen the former, he would have placed arrogance at the center of his soul; his choice would have doomed him as much as Israel and you know it.