Understanding the Trinity

[porthos11]

Alex - I see you are in RCIA. You should have a class that covers the Trinity. It is a core belief of the Catholic Church. At some point you should spend some time with this belief to internalize it, to understand it. Once you do understand the concept of the Trinity a lot of other concepts fall into place.

I know for me, it was easy, but I grew up in a trinitarian protestant church. The hardest part was learning to say Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost, but say enough rosaries and that comes easy too.

I don’t know of any Catholic books explaining the Trinity but maybe other posters can list some resources here.

“Theology for Beginners” by Frank Sheed is where I would turn to.

And despite the “for beginners” part, you still need to read and re-read because again, this is God we’re talking about.

 

[Richca]

I don’t know of any Catholic books explaining the Trinity but maybe other posters can list some resources here.

The Summa Theologica of St Thomas Aquinas on the Blessed Trinity, Part I, questions 27-43; this can be found online.

 

[Medawlinno]

I’ve always viewed it as one deity, call it what you will, The One, The All, God, etc. In the Christian view, this one deity has three aspects; a Father aspect, a Son aspect and a Spirit aspect. Each aspect can act “independently” of the other, or it can act together with another aspect, or all three aspects can act together.

Though there are three distinct aspects, they are all part of the One and the One is a part of all three aspects. Each aspect is a part of the other (as they are all part of the One), though again, each aspect can act “independently” of the other two, if it so choses.

In this respect, it’s not at all like the water analogy, i.e. one deity simply changing the mode/aspect it exists in or reveals itself in at a given point in time.

The above may sound a little “Zen”, but many people whose path involves many gods/goddesses view their “theological hierarchy”, for lack of a better term, the exact same way. The difference being that there are typically many more than just three aspects of the One.

In my path’s view for example, there is the One; the One has two aspects; male and female (i.e. god and goddess), like the Trinity example above, each aspect can each act independently (which is the more typical), or any one given aspect may interact with one or more of the other aspects (more atypical). But it doesn’t stop there. Both the male and female aspect themselves have multiple aspects, and although they can all be “independent” or interact with any or all of the multiple aspects (as described above), they are all ultimately just part of the One.

No disrespect intended, but in this respect, i.e. one deity, many aspects (as described in the above paragraph), a deity having only three aspects is relatively simple concept. I think people over the ages have made it out to be way more complicated than what it really is, almost overthinking it really; splitting minute hairs and arguing semantics on concepts that have been translated and copied so many times, once can’t help but wonder if there’s bound to be scrivener’s errors here and there. Perhaps done as a way to make it seem radically different from pre-Christian thoughts and concepts on what is really essentially one and the same concept. The concept of the Trinity is not radically different (or complicated – at least from a multiple deity point of view) at all; same concept, limited (3) aspects.

 

[openmind77]

…
In my path’s view for example, there is the One; the One has two aspects; male and female (i.e. god and goddess), like the Trinity example above, each aspect can each act independently (which is the more typical), or any one given aspect may interact with one or more of the other aspects (more atypical). But it doesn’t stop there. Both the male and female aspect themselves have multiple aspects, and although they can all be “independent” or interact with any or all of the multiple aspects (as described above), they are all ultimately just part of the One. …

Interesting, but what is this ‘path’ of yours? it almost sounds like Hinduism, but Hinduism does not have a duality at the top or one male and one female.

Actually Hinduism also has a Trinity - Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma - I see them as the Spirit, Soul and Mind of God respectively.They are distinct and independent but together form the Godhead.

 

[Micosil]

Interesting, but what is this ‘path’ of yours? it almost sounds like Hinduism, but Hinduism does not have a duality at the top or one male and one female.

Actually Hinduism also has a Trinity - Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma - I see them as the Spirit, Soul and Mind of God respectively.They are distinct and independent but together form the Godhead.

It seems, however, that this “Trinity” of Hinduism isn’t as accepted within Hinduism as the more mainstream, orthodox understanding of Hinduism as the Trinity is among the mainstream branches of Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy both Eastern and Oriental, Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East, Protestantism, and Anglicanism).
R. C. Majumdar:

Its most notable expression is to be found in the theological conception of the Trimūrti, i.e., the manifestation of the supreme God in three forms of Brahmā, Viṣṇu, and Śiva… But the attempt cannot be regarded as a great success, for Brahmā never gained an ascendancy comparable to that of Śiva or Viṣṇu, and the different sects often conceived the Trimūrti as really the three manifestations of their own sectarian god, whom they regarded as Brahman or Absolute.

It seems also that the Hindu “Trinity” isn’t understood the same way as the Trinity of Christianity is. It seems that in Hindu Trinitarianism, one of the deities is favored over the other – in Christianity, all three divine Persons share in the same divine nature or essence, and all three are worthy of the same praise or latria, worship, either individually, or as a whole Triune Godhead.
Sutton:

There must be some doubt as to whether the Hindu tradition has ever recognized Brahma as the Supreme Deity in the way that Visnu and Siva have been conceived of and worshiped.

Basham:

Early western students of Hinduism were impressed by the parallel between the Hindu trinity and that of Christianity. In fact the parallel is not very close, and the Hindu trinity, unlike the Holy Trinity of Christianity, never really “caught on”. All Hindu trinitarianism tended to favor one god of the three; thus, from the context it is clear that Kālidāsa’s hymn to the Trimūrti is really addressed to Brahmā, here looked on as the high god. The Trimūrti was in fact an artificial growth, and had little real influence.

To end, the idea of the Trinity was around since the very beginning – we have the Didache (which mentions baptism in the name, and not names, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit), which is from before the end of the Apostolic Age in 100 AD, and potentially from the middle of the first century. Likewise, the Apostle Paul, writing in the 50s says:
2 Corinthians 13:14:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

I don’t see this idea of Trinitarianism being ancient, going back to the very beginnings of Hinduism – however, it seems to be the case for Christianity.

 

[ClaireS]

What’s important to realize is that all three Persons share in the one same divine nature or essence. In that sense, by looking at the very fundamental nature of each of the three Persons, is God One. For His very nature, which is divine, is one, even if three divine Persons who are in communion with each other happen to share in that divine essence.

So no, it isn’t three different Gods for two reasons: they’re in perfect communion with each other, and because all three share in one divine nature.

I think it would be more precise to say each person possesses the divine nature. We humans don’t each totally possess human nature; for instance being a man is a part of human nature that a woman doesn’t possess. But each person of the Trinity totally possesses the divine nature.

 

[Micosil]

I think it would be more precise to say each person possesses the divine nature. We humans don’t each totally possess human nature; for instance being a man is a part of human nature that a woman doesn’t possess. But each person of the Trinity totally possesses the divine nature.

 

[openmind77]

…
It seems also that the Hindu “Trinity” isn’t understood the same way as the Trinity of Christianity is. It seems that in Hindu Trinitarianism, one of the deities is favored over the other – in Christianity, all three divine Persons share in the same divine nature or essence, and all three are worthy of the same praise or latria, worship, either individually, or as a whole Triune Godhead.

It is true that Hindus choose the God that they favor or prefer to worship (usually by family tradition) either Shiva or Vishnu. Brahma is not worshipped at all (but neither is the Holy Spirit). I see the worship of Brahma as being replaced by worship of the Goddess.

To end, the idea of the Trinity was around since the very beginning – we have the Didache (which mentions baptism in the name, and not names, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit), which is from before the end of the Apostolic Age in 100 AD, and potentially from the middle of the first century. Likewise, the Apostle Paul, writing in the 50s says:

I don’t see this idea of Trinitarianism being ancient, going back to the very beginnings of Hinduism – however, it seems to be the case for Christianity.

It is true that the idea of the Hindu Trinity was not there from the beginnings of Hinduism (there was a Vedic period before that). But by the time Hinduism had its Trinity (it is mentioned quite a bit in the Gita), Christianity was not even in existence.

 

[Micosil]

It is true that Hindus choose the God that they favor or prefer to worship (usually by family tradition) either Shiva or Vishnu. Brahma is not worshipped at all (but neither is the Holy Spirit). I see the worship of Brahma as being replaced by worship of the Goddess.

It may be true that the Holy Spirit may not be worshipped as much individually as either the Father or the Son (Jesus Christ) are; however, there is nothing wrong at all with doing so for all three Persons are consubstantial, of the same divine nature, substance or essence. More to the point, there exist a whole panoply of prayers to the Holy Spirit, prayers that, if you read them, you’d only address to divinity, to God:

catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=22

To address the specific issue you raised, let me quote Kenneth Baker, S.J, from this site.

When theological reflection on Christian revelation began to develop in the third century and afterwards, there was some question as to the divinity and the personality of the Holy Spirit. In order to affirm both of these points of the Creed states: “With the Father and the Son he (the Holy Spirit) is worshipped and glorified.” So, just as worship and glory are offered by Christians to the Father and the Son, so also are they with perfect right offered to the Holy Spirit. This means then that the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father and the Son in divinity and majesty.

…]

It used to be said that the Holy Spirit was the “forgotten Person” of the Trinity. The reason for this was that most of the prayers of the Church are directed to either the Father or the Son, Also, the faithful seemed to prayer primarily to Jesus or to the Father. Since Vatican Council II there has been a significant change in this regard. More and more Catholics are speaking about the Holy Spirit, praying to him and calling upon him for gifts and illumination. At this period in the history of the Church, the Holy Spirit has come into his own. No longer can be he referred to as the “forgotten Person” of the Blessed Trinity.

It is true that the idea of the Hindu Trinity was not there from the beginnings of Hinduism (there was a Vedic period before that). But by the time Hinduism had its Trinity (it is mentioned quite a bit in the Gita), Christianity was not even in existence.

This is correct; however, what I meant to show was how a Trinitarian understanding was there from the very beginning of Christianity, and wasn’t some sort of later development, like it seems to have been for Hinduism. More specifically, even in the Old Testament, it is said by some that there are implicit references to the Trinity; I remember three off the top of my head:

1. Genesis 1:26, “Let us make mankind…”
2. Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;”
3. Exodus 3:14, “God said to Moses, “I AM who I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’””

Now, whether the first Christians got the idea from Hinduism is something else – we’d need to look at how that would have been possible in that specific area, in that specific time frame,

 

[openmind77]

It may be true that the Holy Spirit may not be worshipped as much individually as either the Father or the Son (Jesus Christ) are; however, there is nothing wrong at all with doing so for all three Persons are consubstantial, of the same divine nature, substance or essence. More to the point, there exist a whole panoply of prayers to the Holy Spirit, prayers that, if you read them, you’d only address to divinity, to God:

catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=22

To address the specific issue you raised, let me quote Kenneth Baker, S.J, from this site.

This is correct; however, what I meant to show was how a Trinitarian understanding was there from the very beginning of Christianity, and wasn’t some sort of later development, like it seems to have been for Hinduism. More specifically, even in the Old Testament, it is said by some that there are implicit references to the Trinity; I remember three off the top of my head:

1. Genesis 1:26, “Let us make mankind…”
2. Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;”
3. Exodus 3:14, “God said to Moses, “I AM who I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’””

Now, whether the first Christians got the idea from Hinduism is something else – we’d need to look at how that would have been possible in that specific area, in that specific time frame,

I did not mean to imply that Christians or the Hebrews got the idea of the Trinity from Hinduism at all. In fact I am sure they did not. Truth can be arrived at by many different people quite independently. Brahma is mentioned in many Hindu prayers too, just like you have prayers to the Holy Spirit. When I say he is not worshipped, I meant there are no temples or festivals dedicated to him, while we have them for each of the other Gods.

Unlike Christianity, Hinduism is an evolving religion. We are quite ready to absorb new revelations from new incarnations (and we expect there to be more) as well as from science. So it does not matter at all that the Trinity was not recognized by early Hindus. However, by the time of Krishna (I believe earlier than 1000 BC) it was a pretty well established doctrine.

 

[Micosil]

I did not mean to imply that Christians or the Hebrews got the idea of the Trinity from Hinduism at all. In fact I am sure they did not. Truth can be arrived at by many different people quite independently. Brahma is mentioned in many Hindu prayers too, just like you have prayers to the Holy Spirit. When I say he is not worshipped, I meant there are no temples or festivals dedicated to him, while we have them for each of the other Gods.

Pentecost is sometimes also called the Feast of the Holy Spirit, and there are many, many, many churches and cathedrals dedicated to the Holy Spirit, atleast named after Him:

holyspiritcathparish.org/

holyspiritchurch.us/

holyspiritsa.org/

cathedralparish.com/

katolikkilisesi.org/en/spirit.html

stpats.org.nz/

Unlike Christianity, Hinduism is an evolving religion. We are quite ready to absorb new revelations from new incarnations (and we expect there to be more) as well as from science. So it does not matter at all that the Trinity was not recognized by early Hindus. However, by the time of Krishna (I believe earlier than 1000 BC) it was a pretty well established doctrine.

You’ve raised an interesting point. In Christianity it’s not as clear-cut and obvious as you may think; while public revelation did indeed end with the death of the last Apostle, John, in 100 AD, it is also the case that this revealed truth gave way to doctrines that would develop over the subsequent years.

For example, it is clear that early Christians such as the Apostles and St. Ignatius of Antioch understood that the bread and the wine are, after consecration, the body and blood of Christ, but they obviously didn’t have the more nuanced, refined concepts and terminology that would make its way into the doctrine of Transubstantiation; the other Apostolic churches (EO, OO, Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East) don’t even have a doctrine of Transubstantiation, but their Eucharists are valid, and the Real Presence of Christ is just as real as it is in any Catholic Mass or Eucharistic adoration, ontologically speaking.

But these developed doctrines don’t in any way contradict that seed of Apostolic truth that the Apostles received from the Lord Jesus Christ. John Henry Cardinal Newman has a good treatise on this, I believe the one that he started writing still an Anglican, and finished writing as a Catholic – An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, very interesting book.

So, while you said that Hinduism is unlike Christianity in that it is an evolving religion, it’s not exactly true that Christianity doesn’t evolve, or shall I say, doesn’t develop – its basic Apostolic truths are obviously what they were when Jesus Christ gave them to the Apostles, but using reason and logic, one can arrive at conclusions and corollaries that must hold if the first hold.

 

[TonyBS]

This is difficult for me to understand.

From a Baha’i perspective a Trinity can be found in all religions. The three things are God, The Holy Spirit and the Receiver/Messenger.

So to look at it as it is in Christianity, we have God, the Holy Spirit and Christ in the Station of the Son. The giver, the gift and the receiver.

We see that no other man shares this partnership, the remainder of us receive life from this God Given Partnership, without it we would not exist.

From here the explanation can be made easier to understand and the Oneness of God and His Religions established, if we use the Sun and a Mirror to explain the Trinity.

1. The Sun represents God who is Unknowable and unviewable
2. The Rays of the Sun Represents the Holy Spirit of God, the life giving force
3. The Mirror represents a Perfect unblemished Mirror who reflects God and the Holy Spirit

The name of this mirror is God Chosen Messenger who is then the reflector of those Rays in each age God gives His message. In the time of Jesus it was Jesus the Christ.

With this explanation all Biblical Passages in relation to the connection of God and Christ can be understood and explained with ease.

Like - When Christ talks about the Father being Greater then I, He is Talking of the Sun which is not in the Mirror.

Like - When Christ says I and the Father are One, He is talking about the Sun which is reflected from Him.

We can now also use the Mirror concept to understand better what is meant by “Return”. This would be another subject so I will leave it that the important thing here is for mankind not to get ‘Attached’ forever to a “Name” and be mindful of passages such as these.

Isaiah 62:2The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 2:17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

Revelation 3:12’He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13’He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

You can see by this explanation why it was not easy for the Jews to accept Jesus the Christ, they hung on to past thoughts and interpretations, but Failed to see their God in the new Mirror of Christ.

Hope this helps you with your connection to God through Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Wesrock]

Sounds like three different gods to me but what do I know lol

It’s hard for us to put in human terms, but note that as strange as it sounds and as impossible as it is to come up with a perfect analogy, there’s no contradiction inherent in the position. And is it so odd that essence of a being like God is above our understanding?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. Could the greatest commandments be used to describe the oneness between God the Father and God the Son?

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength, Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Did this love come from God the Father?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

There is one passage in the New International Bible; that links the spirit and the greatest commandments…

**1 Samuel 18 - 1 **
Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself

Can the trinity possibly hang and depend on the greatest commandments?

Just some thoughts.

 

[gazelam]

In an effort to not derail another thread, I thought starting a new thread on this topic may be helpful. What does your faith tradition teach regarding the trinity? How do we as Catholics help others understand the trinity?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Father and the Son are one in purpose, not one in substance (i.e., not "consubstantial’ per the Nicene Creed).

Several verses state that the Father and the Son are one. Scripture shows us how two persons can be one.

John 17:21 (KJV) states “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee…”

Here Jesus was praying for the believers. Clearly He was not asking that the believers all become consubstantial with each other, but rather be one in purpose and mind.

Genesis (KJV) 2:24 states “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

No one would contend that husband and wife are one in substance.

Regarding Paul’s comments on missionary work in 1 Corinthians 3:8,9 (KJV)

8 *Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
*
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

Clearly, the planter and the waterer in verse 8 are not consubstantial, but rather they are one in purpose for verse 9 says “For we are labourers together with God”.

I hope this helps…

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Father and the Son are one in purpose,

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. It would make sense that the greatest purpose of Jesus the man, would reflect the greatest purpose of God.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength, Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Did this love come from God the Father?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

Search for a greater purpose…

 

[Horton]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Father and the Son are one in purpose, not one in substance (i.e., not "consubstantial’ per the Nicene Creed).

Several verses state that the Father and the Son are one. Scripture shows us how two persons can be one.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Trinity does not attempt to define the Essence of God.

Trinity points to the mystery of the divine economy in procession eternally and from which God reveals His True presence to us in space and time. It is in the latter presence that the Essence of God does not come down to us, yet the divine Essence of God is hidden mysteriously or veiled in the person of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When we deal with the relationship of persons in the Trinity, we are discussing God’s presence revealed in space and time not necessarily God’s Essence which is outside of time and space.

Trinity also points to the relationship of the Father and the Son which the Holy Spirit reveals the procession of Love from Love to Love. When Love is God. Love is divine Essence undefined, yet revealed in the procession or divine economy of the Blessed Trinity. The divine will reflects the divine procession distinctly revealed in the Father and the Son, which is a divine communion of Love in God the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of Life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Trinity reveals God who is Love, Love proceeds from Love in Love to love us. God reveals His Love in the presence of the Father (voice) the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit (breath). The Father (voice), the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit (breath of God) are all distinct in revelation of person (being) and procession (revelation). The three are distinct from one another, yet the blessed Trinity is One God.

The Father eternally begets the Son, and sends the Son, so that God’s presence (Love) is made known to humanity and all of creation, in and through the Trinity of persons eternally proceeding from one principle in one spiration of Love. Divine Love (God) is not exhausted in a definition, Love = God’s Essence remains a Mystery. Faith proceeds in the mystery of Love.

Catholicism never attempts to define a mystery (Trinity) of God. Catholic theology only reaches or hopes in faith by grasping at what God revealed to our humanity in Trinity. Faith takes precedence over theology here. Theology is never doctrine, God’s revelation (Truth) = Trinity is made doctrine.

The Trinity gives name singular (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) to the persons who reveal the presence of God in time and space not His essence.

Something to consider of the divine economy or procession of the Trinity. Creation is past tense existence in being, for creation is visible existence in a past tense because it came from the invisible eternal present tense existing.

However, the Existence of God’s Essence does not enter space and time, space and time derive their existence from God’s Existing Essence while space and time remain in the past tense from existence, because God’s Essence Exist eternally present.

When Jesus who is the Word of God became flesh in time and space, reveals that the Father is greater than the Son, because the Father is eternally present existing, when the Word became flesh in space and time, reveals the second person of the Trinity’s presence made present in the past tense existing, which is secondary or inferior to that which is eternally present existing. Yet the mystery of God in Trinity revealed incarnate that; there is never a time or space (which includes eternal time and eternity) that Jesus the Word of God is never God, when the Father is greater than the Son, who eternally begets the Son.

In all this short commentary, the mystery of the Trinity is not defined.

Peace be with you

 

[MartinJordan]

Trinity does not attempt to define the Essence of God.

Trinity points to the mystery of the divine economy in procession eternally and from which God reveals His True presence to us in space and time. It is in the latter presence that the Essence of God does not come down to us, yet the divine Essence of God is hidden mysteriously or veiled in the person of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When we deal with the relationship of persons in the Trinity, we are discussing God’s presence revealed in space and time not necessarily God’s Essence which is outside of time and space.

Trinity also points to the relationship of the Father and the Son which the Holy Spirit reveals the procession of Love from Love to Love. When Love is God. Love is divine Essence undefined, yet revealed in the procession or divine economy of the Blessed Trinity. The divine will reflects the divine procession distinctly revealed in the Father and the Son, which is a divine communion of Love in God the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of Life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Trinity reveals God who is Love, Love proceeds from Love in Love to love us. God reveals His Love in the presence of the Father (voice) the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit (breath). The Father (voice), the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit (breath of God) are all distinct in revelation of person (being) and procession (revelation). The three are distinct from one another, yet the blessed Trinity is One God.

The Father eternally begets the Son, and sends the Son, so that God’s presence (Love) is made known to humanity and all of creation, in and through the Trinity of persons eternally proceeding from one principle in one spiration of Love. Divine Love (God) is not exhausted in a definition, Love = God’s Essence remains a Mystery. Faith proceeds in the mystery of Love.

Catholicism never attempts to define a mystery (Trinity) of God. Catholic theology only reaches or hopes in faith by grasping at what God revealed to our humanity in Trinity. Faith takes precedence over theology here. Theology is never doctrine, God’s revelation (Truth) = Trinity is made doctrine.

The Trinity gives name singular (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) to the persons who reveal the presence of God in time and space not His essence.

Something to consider of the divine economy or procession of the Trinity. Creation is past tense existence in being, for creation is visible existence in a past tense because it came from the invisible eternal present tense existing.

However, the Existence of God’s Essence does not enter space and time, space and time derive their existence from God’s Existing Essence while space and time remain in the past tense from existence, because God’s Essence Exist eternally present.

When Jesus who is the Word of God became flesh in time and space, reveals that the Father is greater than the Son, because the Father is eternally present existing, when the Word became flesh in space and time, reveals the second person of the Trinity’s presence made present in the past tense existing, which is secondary or inferior to that which is eternally present existing. Yet the mystery of God in Trinity revealed incarnate that; there is never a time or space (which includes eternal time and eternity) that Jesus the Word of God is never God, when the Father is greater than the Son, who eternally begets the Son.

In all this short commentary, the mystery of the Trinity is not defined.

Peace be with you

:harp:

MJ

 

[Vico]

From a Baha’i perspective a Trinity can be found in all religions. The three things are God, The Holy Spirit and the Receiver/Messenger.

So to look at it as it is in Christianity, we have God, the Holy Spirit and Christ in the Station of the Son. The giver, the gift and the receiver.

We see that no other man shares this partnership, the remainder of us receive life from this God Given Partnership, without it we would not exist.

From here the explanation can be made easier to understand and the Oneness of God and His Religions established, if we use the Sun and a Mirror to explain the Trinity.

1. The Sun represents God who is Unknowable and unviewable
2. The Rays of the Sun Represents the Holy Spirit of God, the life giving force
3. The Mirror represents a Perfect unblemished Mirror who reflects God and the Holy Spirit

The name of this mirror is God Chosen Messenger who is then the reflector of those Rays in each age God gives His message. In the time of Jesus it was Jesus the Christ.

With this explanation all Biblical Passages in relation to the connection of God and Christ can be understood and explained with ease.

Like - When Christ talks about the Father being Greater then I, He is Talking of the Sun which is not in the Mirror.

Like - When Christ says I and the Father are One, He is talking about the Sun which is reflected from Him.

We can now also use the Mirror concept to understand better what is meant by “Return”. This would be another subject so I will leave it that the important thing here is for mankind not to get ‘Attached’ forever to a “Name” and be mindful of passages such as these.

Isaiah 62:2The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 2:17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

Revelation 3:12’He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13’He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

You can see by this explanation why it was not easy for the Jews to accept Jesus the Christ, they hung on to past thoughts and interpretations, but Failed to see their God in the new Mirror of Christ.

Hope this helps you with your connection to God through Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

In Christianity, Jesus the Christ has two natures, divine and human. There is only one divine person called the Son of God, born before all ages, and the divine person not independent of the Trinity. The three divine persons penetrate and indwell reciprocally in one another, in one essence. So, I can see how the Bahai theology is different.