Understanding the Trinity

[Vico]

Thanks for starting this thread Horton, I appreciate it.

Would it be fair to say that the Catholic belief is that there are three beings that share one perfect personality and nature but two of those beings are spirit and one is embodied?

It’s something I still really struggle to understand.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica:
Question 39. The persons in relation to the essence
Article 1. Whether in God the essence is the same as the person?

I answer that, The truth of this question is quite clear if we consider the divine simplicity. For it was shown above (Question 3, Article 3) that the divine simplicity requires that in God essence is the same as “suppositum,” which in intellectual substances is nothing else than person. But a difficulty seems to arise from the fact that while the divine persons are multiplied, the essence nevertheless retains its unity. And because, as Boethius says (De Trin. i), “relation multiplies the Trinity of persons,” some have thought that in God essence and person differ, forasmuch as they held the relations to be “adjacent”; considering only in the relations the idea of “reference to another,” and not the relations as realities. But as it was shown above (Question 28, Article 2) in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself. Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other. For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.

newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm#article1

 

[Horton]

This is the part that I find most difficult to understand. You say that God is one Being. He is fully unembodied Spirit. But He is also fully embodied spirit manifest in Christ.

Can you please explain again how there can be three persons in one God?

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Mba23fb12667f808a79ce8b5e3156dcb9H0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

This image explains the trinity.

Here is a lengthy explanation, too long to paste here

catholic.com/encyclopedia/trinity

As I said to you in the previous thread, to understand this you must set LDS doctrine aside. You can’t understand the trinity while using LDS definitions of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, you must use Christian definitions.

 

[porthos11]

This is the part that I find most difficult to understand. You say that God is one Being. He is fully unembodied Spirit. But He is also fully embodied spirit manifest in Christ.

Can you please explain again how there can be three persons in one God?

This is the part that I find most difficult to understand. You say that God is one Being. He is fully unembodied Spirit. But He is also fully embodied spirit manifest in Christ.

Can you please explain again how there can be three persons in one God?

Of course it’s difficult. This is God we’re talking about. No one should ever claim he can “easily” understand the Trinity. It’s something we will never fully grasp in this life.

It’s not safe to use the term “embodied spirit” when referring to Christ. The Son became Incarnate, not embodied–I would not use terms that were not used in the earliest Church. He took upon himself a human nature, complete with a human body and a human soul, while all the time remaining fully God.

As for explaining how there can be three Persons in one God, well, you’re asking for multiple volumes of thought, but we can try to break it down, with the caution that I am human trying to explain the Infinite in limited human terms. We will also need to necessarily use a “timeline” even though God is outside of time.

1. God is One, Perfect, and Infinite (postulate: we can accept this from Scripture).
2. God is simple. He has no parts (corollary to #1).
3. God is Knowledge, and God is Love (postulate: we can accept this from Scripture).
4. Because God is Knowledge, while it is correct to state he knows all things, but we must also recognize that creation did not always exist. Therefore, “before” creation, God had only one object of his knowledge: himself.
5. God forms an idea of himself. We too, form ideas of ourselves, and insofar as the idea of ourselves are accurate, they resemble us. However, because of our limitations, our ideas never fully resemble us; we don’t know ourselves as fully as we can. Our ideas of ourselves are therefore limited and inadequate.
6. But God is Perfect (#1 above). He therefore cannot form an inadequate idea of himself, and therefore the Idea must also be perfect, inifinite.
7. Since there can only be one Perfect, one Infinite, this Idea is also God. This is the Logos referred to by John in chapter 1 of the Gospel. The Logos is the “mind”, or “idea” of God, translated best as “Word”. As such, the Father “generates” the Word, which means the Word is also Son.
8. God is also Love. As the Father and Son are both God, they pour forth the perfection of love for each other. The Father loves the Son fully and perfectly, as the Son does the Father.
9. We too, love, but in our limited nature, we love imperfectly. We love someone, but never totally. We did not love our children before they were born, because they did not exist for us to love. We love our spouses, but as much as we profess we do, we never love them perfectly, because we always hold something back, for ourselves or for others, such as parents, children.
10. But God holds nothing back. The Father and Son love each other with the totality of their being, their love perfect just as they are, as infinite as they are.
11. But there can be only one Perfect, one Infinite. This Love must therefore also be God, proceeding from the Father and the Son.
12. Love is tied closely to life, which in turn is expressed as Breath. This is at least one reason we refer to this third Person as the Spirit even though God in Three Persons is completely spirit.
13. And we caution that this Knowledge and Love did not happen in sequence, as if once upon a time, there was only the Father, then the Son, then the Spirit. The generation and procession are in the vary nature of God, who is outside of time, to exists only in one Now, with no past or future. Therefore, all of this has “always” “been”.

 

[Horton]

]

This is the part that I find most difficult to understand. You say that God is one Being. He is fully unembodied Spirit. But He is also fully embodied spirit manifest in Christ.

Can you please explain again how there can be three persons in one God?

Of course it’s difficult. This is God we’re talking about. No one should ever claim he can “easily” understand the Trinity. It’s something we will never fully grasp in this life.

It’s not safe to use the term “embodied spirit” when referring to Christ. The Son became Incarnate, not embodied–I would not use terms that were not used in the earliest Church. He took upon himself a human nature, complete with a human body and a human soul, while all the time remaining fully God.

As for explaining how there can be three Persons in one God, well, you’re asking for multiple volumes of thought, but we can try to break it down, with the caution that I am human trying to explain the Infinite in limited human terms. We will also need to necessarily use a “timeline” even though God is outside of time.

1. God is One, Perfect, and Infinite (postulate: we can accept this from Scripture).
2. God is simple. He has no parts (corollary to #1).
3. God is Knowledge, and God is Love (postulate: we can accept this from Scripture).
4. Because God is Knowledge, while it is correct to state he knows all things, but we must also recognize that creation did not always exist. Therefore, “before” creation, God had only one object of his knowledge: himself.
5. God forms an idea of himself. We too, form ideas of ourselves, and insofar as the idea of ourselves are accurate, they resemble us. However, because of our limitations, our ideas never fully resemble us; we don’t know ourselves as fully as we can. Our ideas of ourselves are therefore limited and inadequate.
6. But God is Perfect (#1 above). He therefore cannot form an inadequate idea of himself, and therefore the Idea must also be perfect, inifinite.
7. Since there can only be one Perfect, one Infinite, this Idea is also God. This is the Logos referred to by John in chapter 1 of the Gospel. The Logos is the “mind”, or “idea” of God, translated best as “Word”. As such, the Father “generates” the Word, which means the Word is also Son.
8. God is also Love. As the Father and Son are both God, they pour forth the perfection of love for each other. The Father loves the Son fully and perfectly, as the Son does the Father.
9. We too, love, but in our limited nature, we love imperfectly. We love someone, but never totally. We did not love our children before they were born, because they did not exist for us to love. We love our spouses, but as much as we profess we do, we never love them perfectly, because we always hold something back, for ourselves or for others, such as parents, children.
10. But God holds nothing back. The Father and Son love each other with the totality of their being, their love perfect just as they are, as infinite as they are.
11. But there can be only one Perfect, one Infinite. This Love must therefore also be God, proceeding from the Father and the Son.
12. Love is tied closely to life, which in turn is expressed as Breath. This is at least one reason we refer to this third Person as the Spirit even though God in Three Persons is completely spirit.
13. And we caution that this Knowledge and Love did not happen in sequence, as if once upon a time, there was only the Father, then the Son, then the Spirit. The generation and procession are in the vary nature of God, who is outside of time, to exists only in one Now, with no past or future. Therefore, all of this has “always” “been”.

Porthos answered your question beautifully. As I said you MUST try to not understand this through LDS lenses. The trinity can not be understood using the definitions the LDS use. The LDS concept of God is not the same as the Christian. You believe God was once man who attained perfection. We know God is uncreated, He is, He is infinite. You believe Jesus Christ was just a man, denying His divinity. We know Jesus was fully human AND fully divine, that he was God incarnate.

There is no spirit world filled with pre-born babies, God does not have a wife with whom He has relations to make spirit babies. We know there is an infinite Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three persons, one being - God.

This is where it all breaks down for the LDS. In the need to assign human meaning to understand God the LDS twist things to the point of absurdity. We, Christians I mean, are OK with the idea that we may not know all, that God retains some mystery. By mystery I mean unknowable, not who done it to be figured out. This is where faith comes in.

I believe in the Trinity, not because I understand it in my human limitations, but because God wills it that I understand.

 

[Job314]

Thanks again for your responses, I think I understand a lot more now. I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain it. Whilst I still don’t agree with that interpretation of scripture, I understand how those beliefs and conclusions were reached.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Muslim tributaries?? What are they?

Dear Ignatian. You have not studied Hinduism at all. You cannot challenge people that a certain thing does not exist in Hinduism when there has been no study.

There are PLENTY of reflections on the relationship between God, the Holy Spirit and the Son in Hinduism.

Please do a study on Om Tat Sat, and you can learn a glimpse into the Trinity in Hinduism. It came first, to all objective observers, that is fact.

You still have not elaborated on what the Baha’i Faith has re-defined. I would appreciate that thankyou

.

Forgive me, I was on my phone which auto corrects words I did not intend to say. It seems to me the only way you as a Bahai can define Trinity and Trinitarian, is to say anyone who believes in the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Muslims believe in the Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit, therefore they would be classified as Trinitarians per your view.

Now, you tell me I have not done a study on Hinduism. That I should go do your job and look up trinity within Hinduism. I’m sorry but you are the one making the assertion that Christians received their trinitarian theology from Hinduism and you are the one who needs to demonstrate it. Failure to do this, I think, means you are unable to back up the claim. The problem I see with such an effort is that you will have to read into hindu texts a trinity, you won’t see it naturally develop. You might find three figures depicted, they might even be called divine but how does that actually reflect trinity? When the fathers discussed the trinity, they discussed more than the surface of Father Son and Holy spirit, being one God, they went into detail about the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit’s procession from the father and the Son’s sending of the spirit. They were forced to use words in ways which had not been used before, like Hypostasis and Ousia in order to talk about the substance of God.

If the same trinitarian theology exists within Hinduism, then produce the fathers of hindu trinitarian reflection on the level of Gregory Nazianzus, Augustine, Athanasius and the like. I doubt you can, because you are doing what Christ mythicists do and reading into things which don’t exist.

But by all means prove me wrong. I shouldn’t have to do your homework.

As for what you have redefined, that should be obvious. It is the word trinity. You redefine a historic concept to be something wholly other than how it is used today and how it has been used in history. Trinity, you are argue is about the Father’s Glory in the son, the son being but a mirror, not the same essence as the father. This is not trinitarian, this is something akin to the Homoiousios position of those who rejected the Heteroousios position and Homoousios position. They were rejected and the term trinity came to be used by the advocates of Nicaea.

This is why i brought up the example of Islamic Tauwhid. Can I make it mean whatever I want it to mean? Can Tauwhid mean Orthodox Trinity? Only if I ignore that words have meaning. Subsequently I think Shogi didn’t explain the trinity at all, he sought to redefine it. The trinity had already been explained, it was Shogi’s duty to explain that the Trinity in Bahai is a false doctrine, not simply redefine it to something more Palatable.

 

[eddie_too]

quibble about Hinduism and whether or not hindu teaching embraces the Trinity revealed to His followers by Jesus Christ until you tire from the quibbling if you wish.

a different observer might raise the question, if the Trinity as revealed by Jesus is a true insight in to the nature of the Supreme Being, how is it that others who lived after Jesus and give themselves the mantle of religious leader ignore that true insight in their teachings.

certainly, a person can read Trinitarian concepts in to some of their teachings if that person tries hard enough, but in no way has anyone since the time of Christ who claim special insights in to the divine ever embraced the Trinity revealed by Christ to His twelve apostles.

 

[TonyBS]

quibble about Hinduism and whether or not hindu teaching embraces the Trinity revealed to His followers by Jesus Christ until you tire from the quibbling if you wish.

a different observer might raise the question, if the Trinity as revealed by Jesus is a true insight in to the nature of the Supreme Being, how is it that others who lived after Jesus and give themselves the mantle of religious leader ignore that true insight in their teachings.

certainly, a person can read Trinitarian concepts in to some of their teachings if that person tries hard enough, but in no way has anyone since the time of Christ who claim special insights in to the divine ever embraced the Trinity revealed by Christ to His twelve apostles.

Dear Eddie too - I know that this has been mentioned before, but for the readers to give the comments you have made balance, it is explained in this manner.

The Standard for the Word of God is the Word Itself as Revealed by Gods “Word Made Flesh”.

Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem …, though thou be [a] little [town] among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

Notice the the Time Limit is to Everlasting and that it has been the same since Old.

So since the time of Christ it is known there have been 3 more times when the Word has been Made Flesh and thus the Trinity can be Found in all these and of those in the past. The “Standard” is set by the “Word” revealed by “Them One and All”.

Lets go back but a little way and take it through to this day;

God - Holy Spirit through the Burning Bush - Messenger “Moses”
God - Holy Spirit as Dove - Messenger “Jesus - Christ (Anointed One)”
God - Holy Spirit as Archangel Gabriel - Messenger “Muhammad - Praiseworthy”
God - Holy Spirit as Dream of the head of the Imam Husayn, - Messenger “Bab Gate”
God - Holy Spirit as Maiden - Messenger Baha’u’llah - Glory of God"

That we as Fallible man try to make any one of these messages Greater than the one that Preceded, or Followed it, becomes a veil that history has proved happens with every one of Gods Messages.

This is why we have the warning of having Eyes to See and ears to hear.

It is easier to see the Three Aspects of God Word in all religions than it is to try to remove it from all but One!

The receiving of the knowledge that they were and are to be for all time the “Word” is recorded in the Baha’i Writings like this

“…the soul-shaking experience of Moses when confronted by the Burning Bush in the wilderness of Sinai; of Zoroaster when awakened to His mission by a succession of seven visions; of Jesus when coming out of the waters of the Jordan He saw the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove and light upon Him; of Muhammad when in the Cave of Hira, outside of the holy city of Mecca, the voice of Gabriel bade Him “cry in the name of Thy Lord…” [The Bab] …awoke to find Himself the chosen recipient of the outpouring grace of the Almighty”. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 93)

Regards Tony

 

[Vico]

Dear Eddie too - I know that this has been mentioned before, but for the readers to give the comments you have made balance, it is explained in this manner.

The Standard for the Word of God is the Word Itself as Revealed by Gods “Word Made Flesh”.

Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem …, though thou be [a] little [town] among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

Notice the the Time Limit is to Everlasting and that it has been the same since Old.

So since the time of Christ it is known there have been 3 more times when the Word has been Made Flesh and thus the Trinity can be Found in all these and of those in the past. The “Standard” is set by the “Word” revealed by “Them One and All”.

Lets go back but a little way and take it through to this day;

God - Holy Spirit through the Burning Bush - Messenger “Moses”
God - Holy Spirit as Dove - Messenger “Jesus - Christ (Anointed One)”
God - Holy Spirit as Archangel Gabriel - Messenger “Muhammad - Praiseworthy”
God - Holy Spirit as Dream of the head of the Imam Husayn, - Messenger “Bab Gate”
God - Holy Spirit as Maiden - Messenger Baha’u’llah - Glory of God"

That we as Fallible man try to make any one of these messages Greater than the one that Preceded, or Followed it, becomes a veil that history has proved happens with every one of Gods Messages.

This is why we have the warning of having Eyes to See and ears to hear.

It is easier to see the Three Aspects of God Word in all religions than it is to try to remove it from all but One!

The receiving of the knowledge that they were and are to be for all time the “Word” is recorded in the Baha’i Writings like this

“…the soul-shaking experience of Moses when confronted by the Burning Bush in the wilderness of Sinai; of Zoroaster when awakened to His mission by a succession of seven visions; of Jesus when coming out of the waters of the Jordan He saw the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove and light upon Him; of Muhammad when in the Cave of Hira, outside of the holy city of Mecca, the voice of Gabriel bade Him “cry in the name of Thy Lord…” [The Bab] …awoke to find Himself the chosen recipient of the outpouring grace of the Almighty”. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 93)

Regards Tony

The Holy Spirit is not the Archangel Gabriel. The Archangel is an angel and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus Christ is God, not a messenger The angel is a messenger. Also, the Archangel Gabriel was at the Annunciation.

Catechism

516 Christ’s whole earthly life - his words and deeds, his silences and sufferings, indeed his manner of being and speaking - is Revelation of the Father. …

567 The kingdom of heaven was inaugurated on earth by Christ. “This kingdom shone out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ” (LG 5). The Church is the seed and beginning of this kingdom. Its keys are entrusted to Peter.

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that “the Kingdom of heaven,” the "Reign of God,"380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love,"381 will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb,"382 "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."383 For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."384

 

[TonyBS]

The Holy Spirit is not the Archangel Gabriel. The Archangel is an angel and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus Christ is God, not a messenger The angel is a messenger. Also, the Archangel Gabriel was at the Annunciation.

Catechism

516 Christ’s whole earthly life - his words and deeds, his silences and sufferings, indeed his manner of being and speaking - is Revelation of the Father. …

567 The kingdom of heaven was inaugurated on earth by Christ. “This kingdom shone out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ” (LG 5). The Church is the seed and beginning of this kingdom. Its keys are entrusted to Peter.

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that “the Kingdom of heaven,” the "Reign of God,"380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love,"381 will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb,"382 "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."383 For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."384

You Have misunderstood what was being said. I kept it too brief, sorry.

Yes God the Holy Spirit and the Messenger.

There are two more aspects Noted. How the Messenger became aware of the God Given Holy Spirit and what the Message was they had to give. Then the Designation/Station they were known by in Giving that Message.

Thus Jesus became aware of the Message He was to give from God by the Dove descending as per scripture with John.

He was then Known as Jesus the Christ The Anointed One

The story how Muhammad, The Bab and Baha’u’llah received Their Missions can be researched.

Regards Tony

 

[Vico]

You Have misunderstood what was being said. I kept it too brief, sorry.

Yes God the Holy Spirit and the Messenger.

There are two more aspects Noted. How the Messenger became aware of the God Given Holy Spirit and what the Message was they had to give. Then the Designation/Station they were known by in Giving that Message.

Thus Jesus became aware of the Message He was to give from God by the Dove descending as per scripture with John.

He was then Known as Jesus the Christ The Anointed One

The story how Muhammad, The Bab and Baha’u’llah received Their Missions can be researched.

Regards Tony

There is no verb here so it is incomprehensible: “Yes God the Holy Spirit and the Messenger.”

By “from God” I assume that you mean the human rational soul of Jesus the Christ received knowledge through his divine nature, being the Son of God. It was revealed that Jesus Christ was teaching in the temple even at age 12, so his teaching the truth did not begin at the Baptism. There also was recognition between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ when both were in the womb. At the Theophany (baptism of Christ) was the revelation of the mystery of the Trinity.

There is not comparison with any other creature, since Jesus Christ is God, and others are not, per Christianity. There has never been any teaching that I found in Christianity that there was more than one Incarnation. If there are other prophets, they have only human nature.

 

[TonyBS]

There is no verb here so it is incomprehensible: “Yes God the Holy Spirit and the Messenger.”

By “from God” I assume that you mean the human rational soul of Jesus the Christ received knowledge through his divine nature, being the Son of God. It was revealed that Jesus Christ was teaching in the temple even at age 12, so his teaching the truth did not begin at the Baptism. There also was recognition between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ when both were in the womb. At the Theophany (baptism of Christ) was the revelation of the mystery of the Trinity.

There is not comparison with any other creature, since Jesus Christ is God, and others are not, per Christianity. There has never been any teaching that I found in Christianity that there was more than one Incarnation. If there are other prophets, they have only human nature.

Vico - The good thing about the Word is there is so much to learn, in fact by the time we die we will have learned most likely an amount basically equivalent to nothing. A pin head in the ocean of understanding would be a comparison full of ego.

If you research you will find All Prophets/Messengers of God were teaching when they were still but Children. You will also find that it is recorded when they became aware that they were to Give Gods Message. They are all recorded as being exceptional in all aspects.

The point is they were all Born of the Holy Spirit, thus from “Conception” they were not as other men were, their destiny set.

Even the Son of Baha’u’llah as a Child of 9 was teaching to their utmost amazement the most learned of His Time and Abdul’baha only received this gift from Hos Father.

The point was shown that all Religion Has a “Trinity” and at the same time a distinct difference in the Message in the time it was given, even though it is from the same source.

It is posted for the interest of those who may find it interesting, I found it most amazingly simple an plausable

God bless all Regards Tony

 

[Vico]

Vico - The good thing about the Word is there is so much to learn, in fact by the time we die we will have learned most likely an amount basically equivalent to nothing. A pin head in the ocean of understanding would be a comparison full of ego.

If you research you will find All Prophets/Messengers of God were teaching when they were still but Children. You will also find that it is recorded when they became aware that they were to Give Gods Message. They are all recorded as being exceptional in all aspects.

The point is they were all Born of the Holy Spirit, thus from “Conception” they were not as other men were, their destiny set.

Even the Son of Baha’u’llah as a Child of 9 was teaching to their utmost amazement the most learned of His Time and Abdul’baha only received this gift from Hos Father.

The point was shown that all Religion Has a “Trinity” and at the same time a distinct difference in the Message in the time it was given, even though it is from the same source.

It is posted for the interest of those who may find it interesting, I found it most amazingly simple an plausable

God bless all Regards Tony

Catholics are obliged to avoid religious indifferentism. Catholics do recognize that there are elements of truth in various religions. St. John Paul II approved this declaration from the Congregation for the Doctine of the Faith, Dominus Iesus in 2000, from which an excerpt is below:

1. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31). 90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”. 91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation. 92 However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”. 93 One understands then that, following the Lord’s command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life”. 94

(90) Cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 17; John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, 11.
(91) John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, 36.
(92) Cf. Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici corporis: DS 3821.
(93) Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14.
(94) Second Vatican Council, Declaration Nostra aetate, 2.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[TonyBS]

Catholics are obliged to avoid religious indifferentism. Catholics do recognize that there are elements of truth in various religions. St. John Paul II approved this declaration from the Congregation for the Doctine of the Faith, Dominus Iesus in 2000, from which an excerpt is below:

1. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31). 90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”. 91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation. 92 However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”. 93 One understands then that, following the Lord’s command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life”. 94

(90) Cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 17; John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, 11.
(91) John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, 36.
(92) Cf. Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici corporis: DS 3821.
(93) Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14.
(94) Second Vatican Council, Declaration Nostra aetate, 2.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

It is good to know and consider that in the Time of Christ all that followed him were known as “gravely deficient” by who were the custodians of the scriptures.

But I am Happy knowing that how ever much I come to know and Love God, that the Love I can offer is insufficient, that it is our Lot to each day try to be a better person. So off I go back to my “gravely deficient” Love of God and Understanding of the Trinity

Regards Tony

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dear Gabriel - A Baha’i would say all this is important to understanding the “Trinity” that is in all Faiths, that is as God the Holy Spirit and the Chosen Messenger.

These passages explain how Jesus is indeed all the Messengers.

John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” and Revelation 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Yes in each age they make God known unto man.

Regards Tony

I am not going to try and answer your interpretation of the scriptures here, all I can add is that your interpretation is never a Christian interpretation or reading.

Jesus Christ is not the Messenger in every age. Jesus Christ is the (only) living Message in every age, because Jesus is the Word of God revealed in every age. This divine revelation is never attributed to any other being history, but revealed in the fullness of times to be Jesus Christ Himself.

If you are adding a divinity trait to a human being as a messenger, in any age other than the Word of God = Incarnate = Jesus Christ. By a Christian faith, such a messenger would be considered a false god, idolatry or heresy. Thus by Christian standards there is no “maybe” when it comes to the revelations of the Trinity.

Jesus is revealed in John 1:1-14… In the beginning was the Word… and Word was God… and the Word became flesh…

No other human being is spoken of by the prophets, such as John does here; who gives a living eye witness account of Jesus being the Word = God.

Jesus coming is foretold by all the prophets including Moses himself Deut.18;15

Understanding the Trinity by a Hindu or Bahai religious leader (messenger) or description, tends to mislead the divine revelation of Jesus Christ and adds a confusion and undermines the Trinity as being a separation of God’s Essence, Which an apostolic Christian faith professes only One God and no other.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel, thank you for trying to clarify this for me. Although I won’t pretend that I fully understand what you said here.

So, should I think rather of ‘One God with three natures’? That’s far easier to accept.

Hi, Nixbits; The Trinity is not revealed for our intellect to understand God, the Trinity is calling us to faith in God’s revelation to our humanity. Man has dealt with the incarnation (Word became flesh in human history) who revealed the blessed Trinity and sent the
Church to baptize all nations and peoples in every age in that one singular name Father, Son and Holy Spirit = One God.

Without giving a theological discourse here, I think the following helps my faith grasp at the revelation of the Trinity.

The scriptures reveal the Father in the voice, the Son in the Word and the Holy Spirit in the breath.

Now voice, word, and breath are not persons divine when viewed by human standards.

**Yet, when God speaks, his divine presence is revealed in each Voice, Word and Breath, distinctly as eternal living His Voice as Father, and the Word which is the Son distinct from the Voice and the breath = Holy Spirit is God in presence or person (living).

Consider when you speak; Does not your voice, word and breath all reveal distinctly from each other who you are as one being in communication or revelation or procession ? Your voice, word and breath all proceed from you which you send, and all three are distinct from your presence, but each possesses their own presence but never separated or confused from you. When we are created in God’s image.

When God reveals His presence to our humanity in every age. God’s presence is proceeded in divine revelation from eternity into time and space in the Trinity of persons.

For no one can see God and live**. If God who is eternity, were to reveal His Essence to time and space, time and space would cease to exist, because eternity is present being and space and time is secondary or inferior to the former.

When we consider God’s Voice, Word and Breath, these three persons are distinct from one another in revelation who are living and eternal being consubstantial in one divine Essence. Which no human words or understanding can ever breach this side of heaven and death.

In short; God is the One who teaches us, and it begins from the graces that come to us in the Trinitarian baptism.

Peace be with you

 

[Vico]

It is good to know and consider that in the Time of Christ all that followed him were known as “gravely deficient” by who were the custodians of the scriptures.

But I am Happy knowing that how ever much I come to know and Love God, that the Love I can offer is insufficient, that it is our Lot to each day try to be a better person. So off I go back to my “gravely deficient” Love of God and Understanding of the Trinity

Regards Tony

The quoted phrase is “gravely deficient situation* in comparison*”.

 

[MartinJordan]

Understanding the Trinity by a Hindu or Bahai religious leader (messenger) or description, tends to mislead the divine revelation of Jesus Christ and adds a confusion and undermines the Trinity as being a separation of God’s Essence, Which an apostolic Christian faith professes only One God and no other.

Frankly, it is a disservice to 2 millennia experience, way of life, prayer, handing over of tradition and Biblical (in particular New Testament) eschatology (Nature of God) etc when later Faiths try to make sense of Christ.

For the sake of good order they (later Faiths) must ask themselves who is Jesus first from the Traditional followers and thus the Trinitarian theology can be understood from the Church that gave it.

God bless,

MJ

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Martin Jordan; your critique of my post is most welcomed and respectfully received. It makes a lot of sense to the order you mention. I can only hope, my post can be helpful to others.

Thank you; and happy advent

yours;
Gabriel

 

[MartinJordan]

Martin Jordan; your critique of my post is most welcomed and respectfully received. It makes a lot of sense to the order you mention. I can only hope, my post can be helpful to others.

Thank you; and happy advent

yours;
Gabriel

Thank you Gabriel of 12.

Your posts are also highly appreciated.

Basically, I think it is important not only to have some knowledge of the Trinity but also a **properly ordered **knowledge. After all properly ordered knowledge is Wisdom . The Church can be trusted in this.

God bless and may your Christmas be a Holy one.

MJ