Understanding the Trinity

[Vico]

So is Jesus the Son of the Father?

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God the Father is the father of God the Son, Jesus Christ, with both divine and human nature.

We profess in the Creed:I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Father; through whom all things were made. For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. He rose on the third day according to the scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he is coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. …

 

[Servant19]

God the Father is the father of God the Son, Jesus Christ, with both divine and human nature.

We profess in the Creed:I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Father; through whom all things were made. For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. He rose on the third day according to the scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he is coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. …

Thankyou dear friend.

This is almost fully aligned with Baha’i theology

For those interested in reading a pretty comprehensive paper on Baha’i Trinitarian theology, please read here:

bahai.org/documents/essays/momen-dr-moojan/god-bahaullah

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[Vico]

Thankyou dear friend.

This is almost fully aligned with Baha’i theology

For those interested in reading a pretty comprehensive paper on Baha’i Trinitarian theology, please read here:

bahai.org/documents/essays/momen-dr-moojan/god-bahaullah

.

The final portion (Byzantine Catholic version) is:And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life, who proceeds from the Father. Together with the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified; he spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Servant19]

The final portion (Byzantine Catholic version) is:And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life, who proceeds from the Father. Together with the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified; he spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Absolutely Vico,

I expect the resurrection of the dead, just as the dead were resurrected in the past and will do so eternally into the future.

I would be happy to recite what you post here

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[hasantas]

I think the question is better asked as: “Which is superior, the Church’s intepretation of the Bible or your intepretation of the Bible?”

I’ll go with the Church’s because there is much written and much explained through the Scriptures, through the Church Fathers and through the unchanging teachings of the Church through history. Your interpretation requires dismissing both the Church and the Bible since the Bible clearly speaks of God as Three divine Persons, One in Being.

Again, merely because you do not accept the profound nature of the Godhead, does not mean both the Church and the Bible are wrong.

I do not interpret but Jesus Himself say directly:

28 ¶And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mark 12

But some say three and they do not obey Jesus!

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Luke 4.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4

Jesus himself serve only God and what do you do?

And Jesus did not say God is only my Fathet but God is Father for everyone:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 6

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Matthew 6

Jesus is not only Son of God but I am too and everybody:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1

As you see there is no much need to interpret Bible especially through very complex doctrines.

 

[Servant19]

I do not interpret but Jesus Himself say directly:

28 ¶And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mark 12

But some say three and they do not obey Jesus!

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Luke 4.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4

Jesus himself serve only God and what do you do?

And Jesus did not say God is only my Fathet but God is Father for everyone:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 6

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Matthew 6

Jesus is not only Son of God but I am too and everybody:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1

As you see there is no much need to interpret Bible especially through very complex doctrines.

Hi hasantas

Are you familiar with some of the hadiths stating that Muhammad had asked for us to pray to Him??

If so, what are your thoughts on this?

.

 

[MartinJordan]

I do not interpret but Jesus Himself say directly:

28 ¶And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mark 12

But some say three and they do not obey Jesus!

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Luke 4.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4

Jesus himself serve only God and what do you do?

And Jesus did not say God is only my Fathet but God is Father for everyone:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 6

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Matthew 6

Jesus is not only Son of God but I am too and everybody:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1

As you see there is no much need to interpret Bible especially through very complex doctrines.

Again you skip verses and context.

BTW, if you can show us from Islamic sources (from Tradition) that these above verses are in the Islam’s books that Islam has been using to prove Jesus is not who the Church (2000 years old) says He is, there is room to dialogue.

Otherwise these are verses that our being thrown in negative spirit and quite frankly very disrespectful…

MJ

 

[hasantas]

Hi hasantas

Are you familiar with some of the hadiths stating that Muhammad had asked for us to pray to Him??

If so, what are your thoughts on this?

.

I am not so much familiar of the Hadiths but Muhammad never said such thing. Muhammad very clearly stated that He just pray to Allah and defined that He is just Human and only God is worthy to serve and pray.

 

[Vico]

Thankyou dear friend.

This is almost fully aligned with Baha’i theology

For those interested in reading a pretty comprehensive paper on Baha’i Trinitarian theology, please read here:

bahai.org/documents/essays/momen-dr-moojan/god-bahaullah

.

It does not cover Christian theology of the Trinity (One God in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit). There is one incarnation of God, Jesus Christ. In Christianity, human creatures are not divine by nature, but introduced to divinity by supernatural grace; everyone is called to share by adoption. The relationship with the divine is not one of absorption, such as in some New Age and Asian religions but one of love, which always** essentially** involves distinction.

 

[hasantas]

Again you skip verses and context.

BTW, if you can show us from Islamic sources (from Tradition) that these above verses are in the Islam’s books that Islam has been using to prove Jesus is not who the Church (2000 years old) says He is, there is room to dialogue.

Otherwise these are verses that our being thrown in negative spirit and quite frankly very disrespectful…

MJ

I have answered that in this thread #238 number.

 

[clem456]

It does not cover Christian theology of the Trinity (One God in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit). There is one incarnation of God, Jesus Christ. In Christianity, human creatures are not divine by nature, but introduced to divinity by supernatural grace; everyone is called to share by adoption. The relationship with the divine is not one of absorption, such as in some New Age and Asian religions but one of love, which always** essentially** involves distinction.

Yes.
Love requires distinct persons.
To love God requires that we are persons (human), and God is a person (divine).

If God is eternal (he is), he existed “before” man existed as a person. God is pre-existent, or primarily existent, or however you want to express that.
Yet God is love, even while other persons did not exist. How can God be love, when others are not around to love?

The distinct persons in this community of love are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Man is not needed for God to be love, we exist because God pours himself out in Trinitarian love.
Love is unitive: distinct persons united in one-ness.
Love is fruitful, or creative.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I do not interpret but Jesus Himself say directly:

28 ¶And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Jesus also said, "I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)

I can go through Scripture and find even more passages than you have showing that Jesus is one in being withGod.

This does not deny there is one God, it merely adds to that claim that the one God is triune in Persons. Augustine wrote a very compelling defense over 1600 years ago.

What you are doing is harping on a literalist approach purely for the sake of pushing your ideas.

Sorry, it is not convincing unless I become as literalist fundamentalist as you, which requires a great lobotomizing of what I know.

 

[Servant19]

It does not cover Christian theology of the Trinity (One God in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit). There is one incarnation of God, Jesus Christ. In Christianity, human creatures are not divine by nature, but introduced to divinity by supernatural grace; everyone is called to share by adoption. The relationship with the divine is not one of absorption, such as in some New Age and Asian religions but one of love, which always** essentially** involves distinction.

Of course Vico. As I have stated, in Christianity there is only one Son, in Hinduism there is only one Incarnation of Vishnu (God), in Judaism, there is the greatest Prophet of all time in Moses, and the list goes on.

At some point, one has to ask the question, do I consider all these other religions as false, and demonise all of them but mine, or is there another explanation?

.

 

[eddie_too]

in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God; and the Word was God. through Him all things were made. … and the Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us.

Jesus is the Word. Jesus pre-existed creation. the Word was with God and the Word was God.

this has never been said about any other human being. no other human being is the Word made Flesh.

while I appreciate the fervor and devotion of non-Christians for their beliefs, I do not understand why they think Christians should believe their, the non-Christians, understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ instead of the understanding we have received from the Lord’s Twelve Apostles.

I find the non-Christian approach of trying to replace the Gospel of Jesus Christ, given to us by the apostles through the apostles’ successors, with the interpretations of non-Christians to be fruitless because these interpretations are primarily designed to show that the interpretations we have received through the apostles are incorrect or incomplete.

notice time and again, with all of the non-Christian interpretations, that the originators never recognize the Trinity or the Word becoming Flesh and dwelling amongst us.

instead they try to explain these two most profound divine mysteries away, seeking to replace them with their own finite understandings of these mysteries. none of these non-Christian teachers came down from heaven. that is why it is impossible for them to claim divine origin and it is impossible for them to change the divine mysteries revealed to us by the Word made Flesh, who was with God and was God in the beginning.

only One has come down from heaven and He is Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Of course Vico. As I have stated, in Christianity there is only one Son, in Hinduism there is only one Incarnation of Vishnu (God), in Judaism, there is the greatest Prophet of all time in Moses, and the list goes on.

At some point, one has to ask the question, do I consider all these other religions as false, and demonise all of them but mine, or is there another explanation?

.

Actually, the list doesn’t go on, because the claims are quite different and, for the most part, compatible with each other.

Moses never claimed to be God, neither did Buddha or Muhammad. Jesus did.

Now whether Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, or Shakti actually incarnated as a man – mind, body and soul – would seem to be a debatable point. Hinduism speaks of different manifestations or devas but the different schools of Hinduism would view things differently and would need to be worked out. On the surface, at least, the claims aren’t the same because the views of God in Hinduism are not the same – spanning monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, pandeism, monism, and even atheism.

In other words, there is no reason to “demonize” any of religion, just recognize the differences and make a decision concerning how and why they are compatible or not. This is no different than deciding on a truth of mathematics, science or philosophy. Deciding that a belief or system of beliefs is not true does not entail “demonizing” it, just recognizing that it is, or may be, incorrect.

 

[openmind77]

Actually, the list doesn’t go on, because the claims are quite different and, for the most part, compatible with each other.

Moses never claimed to be God, neither did Buddha or Muhammad. Jesus did.

Now whether Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, or Shakti actually incarnated as a man – mind, body and soul – would seem to be a debatable point. Hinduism speaks of different manifestations or devas but the different schools of Hinduism would view things differently and would need to be worked out. On the surface, at least, the claims aren’t the same because the views of God in Hinduism are not the same – spanning monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, pandeism, monism, and even atheism.

In other words, there is no reason to “demonize” any of religion, just recognize the differences and make a decision concerning how and why they are compatible or not. This is no different than deciding on a truth of mathematics, science or philosophy. Deciding that a belief or system of beliefs is not true does not entail “demonizing” it, just recognizing that it is, or may be, incorrect.

I am not sure where you heard that Hindus believe that Brahma, Shiva incarnate as a man (also Shakti is female - very, very unlikely to incarnate as a man),

Hindus only believe that Vishnu (the second of the three main Hindu Gods) incarnates periodically as a man, not the other two. Also Krishna, one such incarnation, did claim he was God.

Almost all Hindus recognize Krishna as an incarnation of Vishnu, but we don’t say that Vishnu himself is identical to Krishna. In other words, although we may agree that Jesus is also an incarnation of the Son, that does not mean the Son, himself is identical to Jesus. This mystery is something Christianity still needs to understand and accept.

 

[Vico]

Of course Vico. As I have stated, in Christianity there is only one Son, in Hinduism there is only one Incarnation of Vishnu (God), in Judaism, there is the greatest Prophet of all time in Moses, and the list goes on.

At some point, one has to ask the question, do I consider all these other religions as false, and demonise all of them but mine, or is there another explanation?

.

Catholics recognize that elements of truth exist in all religions, but maintain that the fullness subsists in the Catholic Church, therefore there should be no religious indifferentism expressed by Catholics.

There are at least seventy sampradayas (schools) of religions from India. There are 19 avatara of Shiva, 9 of Devi, and 24 of Vishnu mentioned in various writings.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I am not sure where you heard that Hindus believe that Brahma, Shiva incarnate as a man (also Shakti is female - very, very unlikely to incarnate as a man),

Hindus only believe that Vishnu (the second of the three main Hindu Gods) incarnates periodically as a man, not the other two. Also Krishna, one such incarnation, did claim he was God.

Almost all Hindus recognize Krishna as an incarnation of Vishnu, but we don’t say that Vishnu himself is identical to Krishna.

My understanding is that the Supreme Being is variously known as Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, or Shakti, depending upon the sect of Hinduism and that the multitude of devas are considered to be manifestations of Brahman. It was also my understanding that different sects in Hinduism have differing views on these manifestations.

If that is a mistaken impression, I stand corrected. Thank you.

By the way I meant “man” in its generic meaning as “human” or “mankind” not specifically as the male form or gender of human, but thanks for clarifying this, as well.

In other words, although we may agree that Jesus is also an incarnation of the Son, that does not mean the Son, himself is identical to Jesus. This mystery is something Christianity still needs to understand and accept.

This assumes that your understanding about what Christians should believe about their own religion supersedes what they do understand and accept.

As to: “This mystery is something Christianity still needs to understand and accept.”
I am pretty certain you would not countenance a Christian telling you about the “mystery” of Vishnu or Shiva and what is “something” you “still need to understand and accept” about that mystery, would you?

 

[openmind77]

My understanding is that the Supreme Being is variously known as Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, or Shakti, depending upon the sect of Hinduism and that the multitude of devas are considered to be manifestations of Brahman. It was also my understanding that different sects in Hinduism have differing views on these manifestations.

Almost all Hindus believe in the three main Gods - Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma. And the Goddess Shakti or Devi.

Among these Gods/Goddess, a particular sect may choose a specific one as the main one they worship. But Shiva, Brahma or the Goddess do not incarnate, only Vishnu does. Also many Hindus may choose to mainly worship, the incarnation - either Krishna or Rama, rather than Vishnu himself.

…
As to: “This mystery is something Christianity still needs to understand and accept.”
I am pretty certain you would not countenance a Christian telling you about the “mystery” of Vishnu or Shiva and what is “something” you “still need to understand and accept” about that mystery, would you?

You and anyone else can tell me anything you wish, I would not mind at all. It will be quite a shock for most Christians to someday discover that the Son and Jesus are the same, but still not identical.

But to explain the Hindu view of a divine incarnation further - someone like Rama is born as a human, and at a certain point in his life (usually when he is around 14 years old), the divine spirit of Vishnu descends into him and enters him. From then on Rama operates for all intents and purposes as the God, Vishnu himself. But that does not mean he is identical to Vishnu. In fact, Hinduism has an example of two such incarnations living simultaneously (Rama, Parashurama) and even meeting each other once.

 

[Peter_Plato]

You and anyone else can tell me anything you wish, I would not mind at all. It will be quite a shock for most Christians to someday discover that the Son and Jesus are the same, but still not identical.

Yes, I suppose that would be quite a shock. :ehh:

But we will definitely wait for that “someday” to arrive before any of us go out of our way to express our shock.

On the other hand, I suppose Jesus, who referred to himself as “the Son of Man” or simply “the Son” and commended Peter for saying that he (Jesus) was “the Son of the living God” would be most surprised and shocked to discover that “the Son and Jesus” are “the same, but still not identical,” whatever that means.

Simon Peter answered and said: “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 16:15-16)