Understanding the Trinity

[MartinJordan]

I have answered that in this thread #238 number.

I saw that. Sorry I didn’t have time to answer.

Now, you said :

My faith rquire to believe in Bible. Every Muslim believe and trust that Bible is from God. But we have not original text. The text in hand is by translation. For instance there are millions translation of Qur’an but non of them is matching to original. In translation the meaning is restricted or sometimes maybe incomplete. But translation could hold 70 or 90 percentage.

If your Faith is to read the Bible, and you use the verses like:

28 ¶And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (you used this)

So you will be required to show me exactly where in Islamic texts follow this verse as truth and give me the citation and link perhaps from an original Islamic text (surely you have these passed to from generation to generation). Like we have the Church that has passed down the scriptures to us, for the sake of our children and our children’s children.

Now the verses above, are verses so far that you a person from 2015 believes is true. Therefore, kindly furnish the Traditional Islamic reference. I can see no other way to continue dialogue on this. It’s only fair.

Surely there is an English translation which English reading Muslims can read and I also and English reading person can refer to. Kindly get this for me.

At the same time keep in mind, we Christians use the same verse in our Mass (for Catholics is what we call our Church services) and Liturgical (Gospel) readings (read by the Priest). Even non-Catholic Christians, discuss Mark 12. The context more importantly is how it is read.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Furthermore Hasantas, this 70% to 90%, are you refering to Islamic scriptures and/or Christian scriptures? Can you provide an Islamic source say from 950 A.D.that teaches this? (to make it easier for you).

 

[openmind77]

Yes, I suppose that would be quite a shock. :ehh:

But we will definitely wait for that “someday” to arrive before any of us go out of our way to express our shock.

On the other hand, I suppose Jesus, who referred to himself as “the Son of Man” or simply “the Son” and commended Peter for saying that he (Jesus) was “the Son of the living God” would be most surprised and shocked to discover that “the Son and Jesus” are “the same, but still not identical,” whatever that means.

You don’t have that long to wait. I believe the Christ will be returning quite soon, maybe in just a few years, maybe even next year. Then you can learn the truth from his own mouth. However it may be a good idea to be prepared in advance for some surprises and maybe some ‘shocks’.

 

[hasantas]

Jesus also said, "I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)

I can go through Scripture and find even more passages than you have showing that Jesus is one in being withGod.

This does not deny there is one God, it merely adds to that claim that the one God is triune in Persons. Augustine wrote a very compelling defense over 1600 years ago.

What you are doing is harping on a literalist approach purely for the sake of pushing your ideas.

Sorry, it is not convincing unless I become as literalist fundamentalist as you, which requires a great lobotomizing of what I know.

I see you are very learned man which I appreciate. I agree we both have own backgrounds through which we view issues. I do not mean we shouldn’t interpret scripture in some case but we should not make deep interpretation while the apparent meaning of scripture is obvious. For instance your citation:

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; John 10

Jesus and Father is one because God call them gods unto whom the word of God came. Jesus was word of God and word of God came unto Jesus and Jesus obviously point that. So there is no need through strained interpretation to say that Jesus and Father have same divine nature! That is very far away from fact.

And also Jesus say that God is greater!

 

[Peter_Plato]

I see you are very learned man which I appreciate. I agree we both have own backgrounds through which we view issues. I do not mean we shouldn’t interpret scripture in some case but we should not make deep interpretation while the apparent meaning of scripture is obvious.

It seems to me that you are being quite arbitrary about which passages we are NOT to “make deep interpretations” and where you think the “apparent meaning” is “obvious.” “Obvious” to whom and why? is a loaded question and you seem to have your own motivations for which passages you insist be taken as “obvious.”

 

[MartinJordan]

And also Jesus say that God is greater!

He said the Father is greater (when he was talking while in the world) before his Death Resurrection and Ascension.

Just keeping that The Trinity is the subject of this thread.

So are you working to providing Islamic texts from Tradition that discuss the Bible verses up from you of 2015 picked as Truth? Keeping in mind dialogue between our Faiths.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

=MartinJordan;13515685]He said the Father is greater (when he was talking while in the world) before his Death Resurrection and Ascension.

Just keeping that The Trinity is the subject of this thread.

Father is greater mean that Jesus and Father(God) are not equal. You say Father is greater than Jesus while Jesus was walking on the world. We assume that Jesus has two nature as divine and human. If Father is greater than human side of Jesus then Jesus has not got divine nature beside human nature. If Jesus also has both divine and human nature then as a divine being God should not be greater than other divine nature! Do you see the paradox? So you can’t say Jesus had two natures simultaneously. Already Jesus had never claimed that He had a divine nature. He always was used to say Father gave all.

And another paradox of two nature: God has divine eternal nature and Jesus had a flesh made body. Did divine eternal essence of God incarnate or did God create body and set in or assumed it to feel like human? Now I say non of these are possible!

Divine eternal nature is out of time and matter. We cannot assume that divine nature dwell in time and matter because divine nature surround, involve, feel, effect, create etc. the matter and time and there is no need to incarnate for divine essence which is beyond of our comprehension to understand. God is not bound on time and matter. If we assume that some part of divine essence can be material then someone will say that the matter can be eternal without God!

And there is no need for God to understand or feel human being through incarnation. God can feel, see, effect without any means and there is no close or far for God but everything, everywhere, everytimes are equal for God. So God would not feel better through Jesus’s body but God can see all our feelings better than us without any means.

And divine nature could not be sacrificed!

 

[hasantas]

So are you working to providing Islamic texts from Tradition that discuss the Bible verses up from you of 2015 picked as Truth? Keeping in mind dialogue between our Faiths.

MJ

Faith is one and we both believe in same God although we do not agree on attributes of God. I suppose that you say God is three in one as a result God is one on which we both agree. So your assumption of three gods is to be an attribute of God ofcourse which is not true for me.

I do not understand you insisting on me to provide Islamic tradition for Trinity. I said that Islamic scholars had criticed Trinity in light of Qur’an which is main source of Islam and it’s tradition. There is no any knowledge in Hadiths as much I know for trinity. And most of general Muslims do not have accurate knowledges about trinity albeit neither Christians themselves have not more as much I can see. .

 

[Vico]

He said the Father is greater (when he was talking while in the world) before his Death Resurrection and Ascension.

Just keeping that The Trinity is the subject of this thread.

So are you working to providing Islamic texts from Tradition that discuss the Bible verses up from you of 2015 picked as Truth? Keeping in mind dialogue between our Faiths.

MJ

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

Gospel of John 10

23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.

24 The Jews, therefore, came round about him, and said to him; How long dost thou keep our minds in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them; I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me:

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall snatch them out of my hand.

29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

30 I and the Father are one.

31 The Jews then took up stones, to stone him.

Haydock Commentary on John 10:29
Ver. 29. That which my Father hath given[1] me, is greater than all. We may look upon this as the true reading by Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, &c. The ancient Fathers make use of these words, to shew the eternal procession of the Son from the Father; and that they are one in nature, substance, power, &c. The reading in the ordinary Greek copies is now different. My Father, who gave me them, (the sheep) is greater than all. No one can snatch, or pull them by force, out of the hand of the Father. He had said just before, no one shall, or can snatch them, out of my hand. And this shews that the hand, that is, the power of the Father and the Son, is equal, is one and the same. See St. Augustine, St. Chrysostom, &c. (Witham)

 

[SyroMalankara]

Father is greater mean that Jesus and Father(God) are not equal. You say Father is greater than Jesus while Jesus was walking on the world. We assume that Jesus has two nature as divine and human. If Father is greater than human side of Jesus then Jesus has not got divine nature beside human nature. If Jesus also has both divine and human nature then as a divine being God should not be greater than other divine nature! Do you see the paradox? So you can’t say Jesus had two natures simultaneously. Already Jesus had never claimed that He had a divine nature. He always was used to say Father gave all.

Why can’t it be claimed that Jesus has two natures or two uncomingled-distinct-yet-united-divine/human nature in one? “Jesus never claimed X” is simply your assertion. We reject it.

And another paradox of two nature: God has divine eternal nature and Jesus had a flesh made body. Did divine eternal essence of God incarnate or did God create body and set in or assumed it to feel like human? Now I say non of these are possible!

The Divine Word - the second Person of the Trinity - incarnated. This is easily found by searching any Christian theology books, from even the 1st Century.

Divine eternal nature is out of time and matter. We cannot assume that divine nature dwell in time and matter because divine nature surround, involve, feel, effect, create etc. the matter and time and there is no need to incarnate for divine essence which is beyond of our comprehension to understand. God is not bound on time and matter. If we assume that some part of divine essence can be material then someone will say that the matter can be eternal without God!

Why? A=B so C=X? No.

And there is no need for God to understand or feel human being through incarnation. God can feel, see, effect without any means and there is no close or far for God but everything, everywhere, everytimes are equal for God. So God would not feel better through Jesus’s body but God can see all our feelings better than us without any means.

Not about God “feeling better”, it’s about human nature being completely divinized. God becomes human, so that humans can be more godly (sanctified, purified) - not only by law, but even in nature.

And divine nature could not be sacrificed!

Christians don’t believe this anyhow, so who are you stating this to?

I suppose that you say God is three in one as a result God is one on which we both agree. So your assumption of three gods is to be an attribute of God ofcourse which is not true for me.

We don’t believe in 3 gods.
You need to get good information before trying to convey your thoughts, it’s a jumble of strawman arguments, specious arguments, non-Christian thought and Islamic ideas about Christianity rather than Christian beliefs themselves.

 

[eddie_too]

everyone has reasons for what they believe unless they are clinically psychotic.

we catholics believe a very great Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. through our Lord’s Gospel, we believe that our Creator so loved His creation that He created for Himself a human nature that allowed Him to re-order the world initially disordered through adam’s sin. Perfect Being actually left His heaven and subjected Himself to His creation.

through His taking on human nature we believe that the sinful condition we are born into can be overcome and that we can receive that glory for which God created us. we cry alleluia that our Creator would so love us that He would choose to share with us the consequences of adam’s sin so that we could join Him in heaven. our Gospel teaches us that our physical death is not the end. we believe death has been defeated. without the Gospel we profess, none of this would have even been known, much less given.

the gospels of other human beings promise none of the above. we are confronted with a simple choice. to accept the gift of the Incarnate Word and His accompanying heaven, or to reject this gift and persist in denying all the goodness, graces and joys that only the Gospel of Jesus Christ can provide.

 

[Wannano]

everyone has reasons for what they believe unless they are clinically psychotic.

we catholics believe a very great Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. through our Lord’s Gospel, we believe that our Creator so loved His creation that He created for Himself a human nature that allowed Him to re-order the world initially disordered through adam’s sin. Perfect Being actually left His heaven and subjected Himself to His creation.

through His taking on human nature we believe that the sinful condition we are born into can be overcome and that we can receive that glory for which God created us. we cry alleluia that our Creator would so love us that He would choose to share with us the consequences of adam’s sin so that we could join Him in heaven. our Gospel teaches us that our physical death is not the end. we believe death has been defeated. without the Gospel we profess, none of this would have even been known, much less given.

the gospels of other human beings promise none of the above. we are confronted with a simple choice. to accept the gift of the Incarnate Word and His accompanying heaven, or to reject this gift and persist in denying all the goodness, graces and joys that only the Gospel of Jesus Christ can provide.

I like the simple, practical way you have explained the basic understanding of all Christians who allow Him to be the source of their daily walk.

 

[Biggin]

This is not my idea, but it helps me to understand the Trinity…it’s like water. Water can exist in three states; solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). They are all forms of water (God).

Three states, but of different substance. Better would be a man. I am a Father, I am a son, and I am a husband. I haven’t changed my substance, just my “roles”.
Hope that would help.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Three states, but of different substance. Better would be a man. I am a Father, I am a son, and I am a husband. I haven’t changed my substance, just my “roles”.
Hope that would help.

No actually, the three states of water ARE of the same substance (H20) – water as liquid, solid and gas.

Your “three roles” of the Trinity is not actually a better depiction - too much like modalism or patripassianism.

 

[Vico]

Three states, but of different substance. Better would be a man. I am a Father, I am a son, and I am a husband. I haven’t changed my substance, just my “roles”.
Hope that would help.

Modern Catholic Dictonary

SUBSTANCE. A being whose essence requires that it exist in itself. It is an ens per se (a being by itself) or ens in se (a being in itself). It is commonly distinguished from an accident, whose essence is to exist in another, that is, in a substance. (Etym. Latin substantia, that which stands under, principle, foundation.)

 

[Peter_Plato]

youtu.be/xBqG2hjTVjY
youtu.be/hMI4rA4cuiM

 

[hasantas]

Three states, but of different substance. Better would be a man. I am a Father, I am a son, and I am a husband. I haven’t changed my substance, just my “roles”.
Hope that would help.

The same substance either is solid or liquid or gas and it can’t be three phases at same time. Ofcourse both solid, liquid and gas materials should be at same time but the substances are to be distinct. Divine essence do not split and do not incarnate. Divine essence create matter but do not transform in matter. Matter has a beginning but divine essence is eternal.

And a man may have several roles that is true. For God these roles are manifestations of God. For instance God give/act life, hearing, feeling, view, wisdom, power, desire etc. So a man may have many roles but he is one not three or five or more men in one!

 

[hasantas]

Why can’t it be claimed that Jesus has two natures or two uncomingled-distinct-yet-united-divine/human nature in one? “Jesus never claimed X” is simply your assertion. We reject it.

The Divine Word - the second Person of the Trinity - incarnated. This is easily found by searching any Christian theology books, from even the 1st Century.

Why? A=B so C=X? No.

Not about God “feeling better”, it’s about human nature being completely divinized. God becomes human, so that humans can be more godly (sanctified, purified) - not only by law, but even in nature.

Christians don’t believe this anyhow, so who are you stating this to?

We don’t believe in 3 gods.
You need to get good information before trying to convey your thoughts, it’s a jumble of strawman arguments, specious arguments, non-Christian thought and Islamic ideas about Christianity rather than Christian beliefs themselves.

You only say “why not”? I explained in logic and you claim it is strawman arguments!

Can you bring some evidences and explanations in logic or from Bible?

Christians have scripture by translation but Muslims have scripture directly from words of God. I am that!

 

[hasantas]

No actually, the three states of water ARE of the same substance (H20) – water as liquid, solid and gas.

Your “three roles” of the Trinity is not actually a better depiction - too much like modalism or patripassianism.

Yes the substance and chemical formula of water is (H20) either it is liquid or solid or gas. But the definite molecules can be just in one phases. For instance we suppose 1000… molecules of water. Some molecules can be in solid phase and some in liquid and some in gas phase but all of them can’t be both liquid and solid and gas at same time. So there are no distinct divine eternal beings although which you assume to have same substance!

I mean some part of God do not be Son and other part do not be Holy Spirit. Indeed God is eternal with whole substance which do not split. God become manifasted in varied acts just like giving life, love, hearing etc. but all these acts or roles or manifestations are not(belong) distinct persons.

 

[Vico]

…

Jesus is not only Son of God but I am too and everybody:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1

As you see there is no much need to interpret Bible especially through very complex doctrines.

There is only one Son of God that became flesh. Any other reference to sons of God are by adoption. See Gospel of John, Chapter 1:

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
…
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, …

Chapter 4

9 By this hath the charity of God appeared towards us, because God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live by him.