Understanding the Trinity

[openmind77]

I can assure you the Bab never compared Himself to Jesus, He IS Jesus. I made the comparison because I have fairly and objectively studied their lives. Am I correct in assuming you have not read Nabil’s Narrative?

Catholic and Baha’i theology dictates that the Word precedes the human Jesus.

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Just curious - did the Bab actually himself say that he was Jesus? Or is that something they decided after he died?

Also, do Bahais believe that Bab died to redeem humanity of its sins (similar to Jesus)?

If so, what need was there to redeem humanity twice?

 

[Servant19]

Just curious - did the Bab actually himself say that he was Jesus? Or is that something they decided after he died?

Also, do Bahais believe that Bab died to redeem humanity of its sins (similar to Jesus)?

If so, what need was there to redeem humanity twice?

Hi openmind,

The sole purpose of the Bab was to sacrifice for the coming of Baha’u’llah, which essentially makes The Bab’s purpose in unity with Baha’u’llah’s purpose which was to build the world anew:

The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!

Christ enjoined us to be “fishers of men”
Baha’u’llah has enjoined us to be “quickeners of mankind”…something He majestically exemplified by gifting humanity with His eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha

Baha’is engage with the Holy Spirit given to us through Baha’u’llah to quicken, empower and engage individuals and communities to self commit to a journey of spiritual and material excellence.

.

 

[openmind77]

Hi openmind,

The sole purpose of the Bab was to sacrifice for the coming of Baha’u’llah, which essentially makes The Bab’s purpose in unity with Baha’u’llah’s purpose which was to build the world anew:

Christ enjoined us to be “fishers of men”
Baha’u’llah has enjoined us to be “quickeners of mankind”…something He majestically exemplified by gifting humanity with His eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha

Baha’is engage with the Holy Spirit given to us through Baha’u’llah to quicken, empower and engage individuals and communities to self commit to a journey of spiritual and material excellence.

.

You Bahais sure like speaking in riddles (Ancient Beauty etc)! Let me try to decipher - the Bab died so that Bahaullah could follow him? Bahaullah then gave you the Holy Spirit so that the world could be rebuilt? So Bahaullah could not have been born without the matyrdom of the Bab?

Actually I don’t see that much similarity between Bab and Jesus, except that they were both killed. Lots of spiritual/religious leaders have been killed in history, that fact alone does not make Bab the same as Jesus. And Bahaullah does not seem to have succeeded in rebuilding the world, has he?

 

[eddie_too]

neither mohammed, the bab, Bahaullah or joseph smith knew much about the theology of the Holy Trinity.

that their followers want to piggy back on our Lord, Jesus Christ is not surprising. of course, after the fact, their followers want to claim that their teachings are the same as Jesus’ teachings. they are not. Jesus was very specific and clear about the divine mysteries that He revealed.

only Jesus came down from heaven. that is why only Jesus knew the fullness of the relationship between the Creator and His creation.

while piggy backing on Jesus is a type of flattery, it can also serve to confuse our Lord’s Gospel and for that reason, if for no other, it should be identified and rejected.

 

[MartinJordan]

Where did I say that they didn’t???
Or that I frown on such acts?

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Putting Sai Baba down, insults his devotees.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi openmind,

The sole purpose of the Bab was to sacrifice for the coming of Baha’u’llah, which essentially makes The Bab’s purpose in unity with Baha’u’llah’s purpose which was to build the world anew:

Christ enjoined us to be “fishers of men”
Baha’u’llah has enjoined us to be “quickeners of mankind”…something He majestically exemplified by gifting humanity with His eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha

Baha’is engage with the Holy Spirit given to us through Baha’u’llah to quicken, empower and engage individuals and communities to self commit to a journey of spiritual and material excellence.

.

Which Holy Spirit is this? There’s only one. One substance with the Father and the Son?

MJ

 

[Vico]

The think of philosopher is not above scripture and prophet and yet it is not enough to explain and solve the problem.

As much I understand you(Christians) claim that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct eternal gods but three gods in same eternal essence. Then how could that be? Are there three distinct eternal gods who share same essence? Or did Father create other gods later? Or equal distinct eternal being in same substance but through relations! Can two people agree in everything without any conlicts so three distinct eternal being would agree in countless actions? Or can we explain that perfect relation only through love?

There is one God, one substance, absolute simplicity, and only one divine will. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three gods and are never apart. There is no real difference between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, referred to the essence. Only by our thinking referred to opposite relation, there is a real difference.

St, Thomas Aquinas elaborated on the mystery in Summa Theologica, Q 39, A1: “For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.”

 

[TonyBS]

You Bahais sure like speaking in riddles (Ancient Beauty etc)! Let me try to decipher - the Bab died so that Bahaullah could follow him? Bahaullah then gave you the Holy Spirit so that the world could be rebuilt? So Bahaullah could not have been born without the matyrdom of the Bab?

Actually I don’t see that much similarity between Bab and Jesus, except that they were both killed. Lots of spiritual/religious leaders have been killed in history, that fact alone does not make Bab the same as Jesus. And Bahaullah does not seem to have succeeded in rebuilding the world, has he?

This answer would take us away from the subject. but knowing how the Trinity connects the Messengers of God is paramount to move forward with all knowledge.

The comparison between the Bab and Jesus and what happened as a result of the Message they gave is uncanny. To say there is little may be a result of not taking a look? Really it is uncanny!

As to not rebuilding the World, its is fresh and new but it is like the elixir that has been just injected into the dying body, it has permeated throughout and is just about to impart the cure.

Outwardly it appears all is lost, inwardly the battle has been won, nothing we can do will stop it applying its healing.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Which Holy Spirit is this? There’s only one. One substance with the Father and the Son?

MJ

The same One

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

There is one God, one substance, absolute simplicity, and only one divine will. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three gods and are never apart. There is no real difference between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, referred to the essence. Only by our thinking referred to opposite relation, there is a real difference.

St, Thomas Aquinas elaborated on the mystery in Summa Theologica, Q 39, A1: “For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.”

We are told if you Wish to Call Christ God there is no Issue, as there is no doubt this can be seen to be so;

We are told if you wish to Call Christ a Messenger of God there is no Issue as this also can be seen to be so,

The issue is if we argue about it, then we are told that we are both wrong.

Christ came to Unify us no divide us. It is humanity that has different levels of understanding of What is and of God, as this diversity is from God, how is it that us mere men created of Dust think we have the right to dispute of His truth.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

neither mohammed, the bab, Bahaullah or joseph smith knew much about the theology of the Holy Trinity.

that their followers want to piggy back on our Lord, Jesus Christ is not surprising. of course, after the fact, their followers want to claim that their teachings are the same as Jesus’ teachings. they are not. Jesus was very specific and clear about the divine mysteries that He revealed.

only Jesus came down from heaven. that is why only Jesus knew the fullness of the relationship between the Creator and His creation.

while piggy backing on Jesus is a type of flattery, it can also serve to confuse our Lord’s Gospel and for that reason, if for no other, it should be identified and rejected.

Eddie - God bless you and have a great and rewarding Christ Mass.

Mine is full of love for you and all, to that we thank only God

Regards Tony

 

[arthra]

“open mind” wrote:

*"You Bahais sure like speaking in riddles (Ancient Beauty etc)! Let me try to decipher - the Bab died so that Bahaullah could follow him? Bahaullah then gave you the Holy Spirit so that the world could be rebuilt? So Bahaullah could not have been born without the matyrdom of the Bab?

“Actually I don’t see that much similarity between Bab and Jesus, except that they were both killed. Lots of spiritual/religious leaders have been killed in history, that fact alone does not make Bab the same as Jesus. And Bahaullah does not seem to have succeeded in rebuilding the world, has he?”*

Thanks for your post!

The Bab prepared the way for Baha’u’llah and accepted martyrdom as a sacrifice for “For Him Whom God would make manifest”. They were Contemporaries.

As to similarities between Jesus and the Bab… Both fulfilled prophecies … Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecies while the Bab fulfilled prophecies of the Qa’im and Mahdi; Both had relatively brief ministries…Both were subject to trials that condemned Them… Both were insulted and maligned as well as abused before execution; Both were martyred;

You can also refer to

bahaiforums.com/general-discussion/865-parallels-between-christ-bab-print.html

Baha’u’llah wrote the rulers of His time to set up the foundations of a representative world parliament and set up an international court of arbitration … WE have the U.N. and an international court of arbitration. Baha’u’llah urged that men and women should be equal… this is still not realized but today women have more rights than they had prior to the nineteenth century.

Sincerely,

Art

 

[Peter_Plato]

Baha’u’llah urged that men and women should be equal… this is still not realized but today women have more rights than they had prior to the nineteenth century.

Perhaps. In many countries women have the “right” to kill their unborn children. I suppose, to be equal, men should also have the right to kill their unborn children. Do you think Baha’u’llah revels in that equality if he thought that “men and women should be equal?” Perhaps being “equal” in many senses is not such an important thing without considering the consequences of “equality.”

 

[openmind77]

“open mind” wrote:

*"You Bahais sure like speaking in riddles (Ancient Beauty etc)! Let me try to decipher - the Bab died so that Bahaullah could follow him? Bahaullah then gave you the Holy Spirit so that the world could be rebuilt? So Bahaullah could not have been born without the matyrdom of the Bab?

I am not disputing that the Bab and Bahaullah were holy, spiritual men of their time. Bab’s life may be similar to Jesus, but that hardly makes him ‘Jesus’ himself. And attributing the creation of the UN and the International Courts to Bahaullah is carrying it way too far. I doubt if FDR and the allies had even heard of Bahaullah when they decided to create the UN.

But I see the Bahai perspective - you are trying to match the lives of Bab and Bahaullah to the Muslim prophecy of the return of Jesus and Mahdi.

Frankly, they do not fit the prophecy - both Bab and Bahaullah have had very little influence on world affairs - spiritually or socially.

Also, the prophecy states that the Mahdi will appear before Jesus, so the order of Bab/Bahaullah’s two lives (if they are Jesus/Mahdi respectively) is incorrect

 

[Peter_Plato]

I can assure you the Bab never compared Himself to Jesus, He IS Jesus.

When Saul was persecuting the early Church, the body of Jesus’ disciples, Jesus said, “Saul, why are you persecuting me?” That means, according to Jesus, that the Church IS Jesus.

Paul later pointed out in his letters that the Church is the mystical Body of Jesus animated by the Holy Spirit. Ergo, the Church IS the Body of Jesus on Earth and has been since Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[TonyBS]

Perhaps. In many countries women have the “right” to kill their unborn children. I suppose, to be equal, men should also have the right to kill their unborn children. Do you think Baha’u’llah revels in that equality if he thought that “men and women should be equal?” Perhaps being “equal” in many senses is not such an important thing without considering the consequences of “equality.”

That vision of equality is far from Gods and what is written on the subject.

God bless.and regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I am not disputing that the Bab and Bahaullah were holy, spiritual men of their time. Bab’s life may be similar to Jesus, but that hardly makes him ‘Jesus’ himself. And attributing the creation of the UN and the International Courts to Bahaullah is carrying it way too far. I doubt if FDR and the allies had even heard of Bahaullah when they decided to create the UN.

But I see the Bahai perspective - you are trying to match the lives of Bab and Bahaullah to the Muslim prophecy of the return of Jesus and Mahdi.

Frankly, they do not fit the prophecy - both Bab and Bahaullah have had very little influence on world affairs - spiritually or socially.

Also, the prophecy states that the Mahdi will appear before Jesus, so the order of Bab/Bahaullah’s two lives (if they are Jesus/Mahdi respectively) is incorrect

We do not “Try”, it is what is, as is the " Trinity".

We share.

Member’s of “The league of.Nations” that the UN was built.upon was well aware of the message of Baha’u’llah, but failed to implement the full requirements for the Lesser Peace.

God.bless and regards Tony

 

[hasantas]

=Micosil;13527570]The Son is begotten by the Father (not in the usual biological fashion, mind you) in a similar manner as self-knowledge is begotten by the mind itself. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (some Eastern Orthodox may take issue with this, but I’m answering from my Western, Latin Catholic understanding), just as self-love proceeds from both mind and self-knowledge.

What should I understand from that “The Son is begotten by the Father”? May I think that Son was begotten later by Father but not from past eternity?

What kind of gods Father and Son are in whom another god emerged(Holy Spirit)?

All these explanations are established by people but not from scripture and these are not enough to explain or support Trinity.

If somene is begotten then that subject cannot be god or eternal. If someone(some god) proceed through another then it cannot be called eternal or divine. Holy Spirit was send and proceed by God but not from God(from eternal essence). And yet I cannot understand three persons in one personality doctrine!

If there should be such thing(Trinity) it was be told in Torah, Bible, Qur’an and in explanations of prophets. As you agree it wa established by Church through strained interpretations.

Why did they create the earth, physical reality in general and take interest in human beings? The Compendium of the Cathecism answers that:

I have enough knowledges why God created earth but what I asked is that: How three distinct eternal persons can think same thing in very details? Can I and you think everything in same way but in very very details? Do not gods disagree in anything? Three eternal persons do not decide and set everything from eternal. Three equal commander cannot not an army even command a soldier in order because everyone will command in different way. If there is no different idea or act then why call it three but not one?

Do the three divine Persons act in the same way? Yes:

I have asked how three distinct persons can reconcile in everything?

What about the will of Jesus Christ?

Did Jesus lose His all divine attributes when He became man(!) because He was usedt to ask from Father.

As you can see, all of your questions are answered beautifully by the teachings of the Church with rational answers that aren’t contradictory.

Sources of Teachings of Church are not from scripture and those explanations cannot be explained by physical experiments and these are beyond of our comprehensions.So I can produce many such fantastic thoughts too but all these would conflict with eternal attributes of God as three gods doctrine do.

 

[Peter_Plato]

We do not “Try”, it is what is, as is the " Trinity".

We share.

Member’s of “The league of.Nations” that the UN was built.upon was well aware of the message of Baha’u’llah, but failed to implement the full requirements for the Lesser Peace.

God.bless and regards Tony

The UN pushes the “right” of women to abortions and contraception. What were you saying about THAT “theory” of equality being far from God’s?

 

[Peter_Plato]

What should I understand from that “The Son is begotten by the Father”? May I think that Son was begotten later by Father but not from past eternity?

There is no such thing as past eternity. Eternity is timeless and tenseless. Past eternity is an incoherent idea…