Understanding the Trinity

[Vico]

You have not understood what was said, neither did opennmind77.

The answers to this have been posted way back at the start of this discission, thus do not need to be repeated.Thus I now bow out of this thread.

God bless all and regards Tony

Of course, but the Sun and Mirror do not describe the Christian Trinity. You posted #32:

1. The Sun represents God who is Unknowable and unviewable
2. The Rays of the Sun Represents the Holy Spirit of God, the life giving force
3. The Mirror represents a Perfect unblemished Mirror who reflects God and the Holy Spirit

 

[Vico]

Bahai reference library states:

The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html

Christianity accepts that Jesus Christ has both human and divine nature, so if Jesus Christ were the mirror, in this analogy, then the essence of divinity would not exist in Him, but we have the teaching that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are consubstantial and the Jesus Christ has both divine and human natures in one person, and further, that the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit interpenetrate one another (Perichoresis or circumincession).

So I have to consider that Bahai does not have the same concept of Trinity that Christianity has.

 

[Servant19]

Of course, but the Sun and Mirror do not describe the Christian Trinity. You posted #32:

1. The Sun represents God who is Unknowable and unviewable
2. The Rays of the Sun Represents the Holy Spirit of God, the life giving force
3. The Mirror represents a Perfect unblemished Mirror who reflects God and the Holy Spirit

Yes they do perfectly dear Vico

The Sun and Mirror is the means by which St. Basil described the Trinity.

The Baha’i Teachings and St.Basil are in union on this explanation…

.

 

[Vico]

Yes they do perfectly dear Vico

The Sun and Mirror is the means by which St. Basil described the Trinity.

The Baha’i Teachings and St.Basil are in union on this explanation…

.

It is different because St. Basil refers to the transmission of will, with the mirror analogy, a transmission without subordination, since Jesus Christ is the Godhead. He states:
19. … Rather was the Word full of His Father’s excellences; He shines forth from the Father, and does all things according to the likeness of Him that begot Him. For if in essence He is without variation, so also is He without variation in power. And of those whose power is equal, the operation also is in all ways equal. And Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:24 And so all things are made through [by, A.V.] him, John 1:3 and all things were created through [by, A.V.] him and for him, Colossians 1:16 not in the discharge of any slavish service, but in the fulfilment of the Father’s will as Creator.
“20. …Let us rather, in a sense befitting the Godhead, perceive a transmission of will, a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror”. Note that the essence of Jesus Christ, is both divine and human. St. Basil makes the further comment:
21. He that has seen me has seen the Father; John 14:9 not the express image, nor yet the form, for the divine nature does not admit of combination; but the goodness of the will, which, being concurrent with the essence, is beheld as like and equal, or rather the same, in the Father as in the Son.

#20: newadvent.org/fathers/3203.htm

 

[MartinJordan]

The same One

God Bless and Regards Tony

In the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

It is different because St. Basil refers to the transmission of will, with the mirror analogy, a transmission without subordination, since Jesus Christ is the Godhead. He states:
19. … Rather was the Word full of His Father’s excellences; He shines forth from the Father, and does all things according to the likeness of Him that begot Him. For if in essence He is without variation, so also is He without variation in power. And of those whose power is equal, the operation also is in all ways equal. And Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:24 And so all things are made through [by, A.V.] him, John 1:3 and all things were created through [by, A.V.] him and for him, Colossians 1:16 not in the discharge of any slavish service, but in the fulfilment of the Father’s will as Creator.
“20. …Let us rather, in a sense befitting the Godhead, perceive a transmission of will, a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror”. Note that the essence of Jesus Christ, is both divine and human. St. Basil makes the further comment:
21. He that has seen me has seen the Father; John 14:9 not the express image, nor yet the form, for the divine nature does not admit of combination; but the goodness of the will, which, being concurrent with the essence, is beheld as like and equal, or rather the same, in the Father as in the Son.

#20: newadvent.org/fathers/3203.htm

This may very well be true dear Vico, however, if you have 3 uncreated Beings, you officially have a polytheism.

Uncreatedness in the Son and the Holy Spirit is un-Biblical and a man made concept…

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[Peter_Plato]

This may very well be true dear Vico, however, if you have 3 uncreated Beings, you officially have a polytheism.

Uncreatedness in the Son and the Holy Spirit is un-Biblical and a man made concept…

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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2053&pictureid=17308

And no one subscribing to the Trinitarian view has proposed “3 uncreated Beings.”

I suppose that because you have set up and thrown sticks at at least 3 hammy straw men, you officially have created a polyfallacy. :hey_bud:

 

[Vico]

This may very well be true dear Vico, however, if you have 3 uncreated Beings, you officially have a polytheism.

Uncreatedness in the Son and the Holy Spirit is un-Biblical and a man made concept…

.

The persons are one being not three beings. It may be best for you to use the name Trinity for divinity, because you have difficulty with the concept, it seems.

 

[Servant19]

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2053&pictureid=17308

And no one subscribing to the Trinitarian view has proposed “3 uncreated Beings.”

I suppose that because you have set up and thrown sticks at at least 3 hammy straw men, you officially have created a polyfallacy. :hey_bud:

I ask you to look at posts 59,60 and 61 of this thread:

The Sun and the Mirrors are created things. So how could this be? I’m afraid you are misrepresenting Jesus here.

MJ

I’m only learning from Catholics…

Maybe a clarification is required on the difference between a “Person” and a “Being”?

If it’s the subtlety between a Person and a Being that is being scoffed at here, than the logic still stands for a Person.

3 uncreated, eternal Persons is also polytheism…

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[IgnatianPhilo]

I ask you to look at posts 59,60 and 61 of this thread:

I’m only learning from Catholics…

Maybe a clarification is required on the difference between a “Person” and a “Being”?

If it’s the subtlety between a Person and a Being that is being scoffed at here, than the logic still stands for a Person.

3 uncreated, eternal Persons is also polytheism…

.

If there were three separate essences each with their own person, then yes we are polytheists, but since the three persons are united in nature, distinct In that the Father is not the son, the son not the father and the spirit not the father or son, but all three are God I am convinced we are monotheist.

Monotheism is captured In the simplicity of God’s being which is one, not in the persons Christians would argue. Are you willing to follow up on that comment and say every faithful Christian is a polytheist since you say our thelogy is polytheistic?

 

[Servant19]

If there were three separate essences each with their own person, then yes we are polytheists, but since the three persons are united in nature, distinct In that the Father is not the son, the son not the father and the spirit not the father or son, but all three are God I am convinced we are monotheist.

Monotheism is captured In the simplicity of God’s being which is one, not in the persons Christians would argue. Are you willing to follow up on that comment and say every faithful Christian is a polytheist since you say our thelogy is polytheistic?

Happy to follow up on what I believe

If you have 3 Persons, all uncreated, all eternal, all omniscient and all omnipresent, and yet they are distinct Persons, one NOT being the other, then you have polytheism.

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[hasantas]

Hasantas can you please explain to us what Islam teaches about the statement Jesus made, “Before Abraham was, I am”

Thank you

.

124-And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. Allah ] said, “Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people.” [Abraham] said, “And of my descendants?” Allah ] said, “My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” Al-Baqarah

Abraham said make my descendants leader. Jesus and Muhammad were conclusions of that prayer.

God inform prophets about some case which will happen in the future and prophet could know these cases but uncertain not clear. Abraham had known about Jesus by informing of God and God has eternal knowledge.

How could Abraham see the day of Jesus before Jesus came to world?

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8

( God had shown Abraham about Jesus)

Jesus said before Abraham was I am mean that God has eternal knowledge/management and coming of Jesus is in eternal knowledge too so it was eternal decision to send Jesus. Jews did not believe and obey Jesus and they argued with Jesus see John 8 totaly. And they claimed that all prophets were dead and their ancestor Abraham was dead too. They did not think that Jesus was sent by God. Jesus tried to explain that Jesus was sent as a prophet just like Abraham and that was an eternal decision before Abraham was sent. The argument was on the prophethood and sins of Jews.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Happy to follow up on what I believe

If you have 3 Persons, all uncreated, all eternal, all omniscient and all omnipresent, and yet they are distinct Persons, one NOT being the other, then you have polytheism.

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My question was not answered. Are we Christians polytheists?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Hi Peter, I’ve highlighted the most critical part for you.

The Bab is not the “Body” of Jesus, He is the Word made flesh.

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Well, that just sounds like borrowed theology and borrowed terminology.

 

[hasantas]

God is perfect Love. And because God is perfect Love he is perfectly lovable by and in all three Persons.

His will is perfect and he is omniscient, What is left to "reconcile? Who would have better knowledge or a better or more worthy idea to be reconciled?

You don’t think God is Love?

You don’t think God is omniscient?

Oh, I forgot, we can’t prove omniscience by “physical experiments,” can we? So that, too, would be a “fantastic thought?”

God is love, God is omniscient, God is omnipotend, etc. I have much knowledge about eternal attributes of God. The eternal love is not enough to explain Trinity becaue like love God has many eternal attributes too. God also have eternal willpower which is not dependent on anything else. So the eternal willpower of Father is not dependent on Son’s or eternal willpower of Son should not be dependent on Father’s. Look at Bible Jesus allaways said Father send me or I asked from Father but Jesus did not say “we”(father, Son, Holy Spirit). There is no level in eternal so there can’t be a " the greatest godhead".

You say His will or His omniscience or His love so why do you not say their(Father, Son, Holy Spirit)?

 

[hasantas]

There is no such thing as past eternity. Eternity is timeless and tenseless. Past eternity is an incoherent idea…

So you say there can be levels in eternity? If that is valid that mean that Father had begotten Son in some part of eternity so Son could get divine attributes! You should study eternity much.

Note: with past eternity I mean without begining. So if Jesus was begotten in some times then Jesus cannot be absolutely eternal.

 

[Servant19]

Well, that just sounds like borrowed theology and borrowed terminology.

No dear Peter

The Baha’i terminology is the Manifestation of God
In Christian terminology this is called the Word made flesh. I use Christian terminology here to enable a clear representation to be be put forward

.

 

[Servant19]

My question was not answered. Are we Christians polytheists?

I am happy to be corrected but if Christians believe that Jesus was uncreated and the Father was uncreated and the Holy Spirit is uncreated then I believe Chtistians are polytheistic

.

 

[Servant19]

Your Trinity seems to have only two persons (assuming Messengers are not Gods and so not part of the Trinity)

Fair enough, but my original questions about the Bab and Bahaullah were for Mr Servant.

They are not off topic because he seems to believe the two (Bab and Bahaullah) are members of the Trinity (but you apparently don’t).

So this question is for Mr Servant (not for TonyBS): how can the Bab be both the Mahdi and Jesus when the Islamic tradition clearly states that these two are separate persons? Don’t the Bahai believe in the Islamic tradition regarding the prophecy of the Mahdi?

Hi openmind

There are several Truths written about the nature of the Major Prophets throughout history.

In Islam, Muhammad sees Himself as an equal to Jesus, but not the return of Jesus.
John the Baptist was the prophet Elijah but not the Messiah.

Baha’u’llah is the fulfilment of all religious expectations.
At the same time, He is a Prophet (making Him equal with Muhammad) and also the Word made flesh (making Him Jesus)

Baha’u’llah in His position as the “Sender of all the Prophets and the Revealer of all Their Books” has clarified the station of all the previous Prophets which are as yet unknown to mankind.

.

 

[Servant19]

124-And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. Allah ] said, “Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people.” [Abraham] said, “And of my descendants?” Allah ] said, “My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” Al-Baqarah

Abraham said make my descendants leader. Jesus and Muhammad were conclusions of that prayer.

God inform prophets about some case which will happen in the future and prophet could know these cases but uncertain not clear. Abraham had known about Jesus by informing of God and God has eternal knowledge.

How could Abraham see the day of Jesus before Jesus came to world?

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8

( God had shown Abraham about Jesus)

Jesus said before Abraham was I am mean that God has eternal knowledge/management and coming of Jesus is in eternal knowledge too so it was eternal decision to send Jesus. Jews did not believe and obey Jesus and they argued with Jesus see John 8 totaly. And they claimed that all prophets were dead and their ancestor Abraham was dead too. They did not think that Jesus was sent by God. Jesus tried to explain that Jesus was sent as a prophet just like Abraham and that was an eternal decision before Abraham was sent. The argument was on the prophethood and sins of Jews.

I think this is a very big stretch of the meaning behind Jesus’s statement hasantas. Your clarification that God knew His Divine Plan from the very beginning is true, but Jesus is not referring to a Covenant or a Plan here, otherwise He would specify the Covenant.

There are much more direct ways for Jesus to say what you are implying here.

Prophets, as a principle, have visions. I have no doubt Abraham had a vision of Jesus’s Day.

.

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